Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Surplus  (Read 9104 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Surplus
« on: March 09, 2018, 12:05:38 pm »
+6

I feel like there's an article here, but every time I think about posting some kind of authoritative article, what I mostly want to do is get insight from the community on an issue (such as with my "payload first" post) so once again, I'm posting it as an open-ended subject.

Surplus

Cards in Dominion are costed according to their function. What if you buy a card and are not using some key part of its function? Surplus anything left at the end of a turn could indicate that you're overinvesting. Sometimes that's acceptable, but sometimes the surplus can be used as a guideline to identify bad play or bad buying decisions. So, at the end of a turn, what do you have left over?

Extra actions -- Don't overinvest in cards that generate +actions you don't need. You could be a Village Idiot.
Extra coin -- Don't overinvest in coin-generating you can't spend if there's no +buy.
Extra buys -- Don't overinvest in buys that you don't have the coin for.
Extra action cards -- Don't overinvest in terminals you can't play.
Extra value -- "Gain a card costing up to X" is a fuzzy category...it's frequently worth it to gain a card costing less than the maximum, but there could be some lost efficiency here.
Extra cards you couldn't draw -- All the cards left in your deck were an investment that didn't pay off this turn. If you can only draw half your deck, you've paid for cards that you can only use every other turn, making them fundamentally half as valuable.
Extra cards you could draw -- Overdrawing is a thing you want to do, but even then, it's possible to overdo it. If your deck is in hand and you can still draw more cards than you could possibly want for the whole rest of the game, you may be overinvested in draw (I hesitate to even suggest this, but I've done it.)
Underbuying -- Some cards are just terrible without the overpay. You generally don't pay $3 or $4 for a Masterpiece, or $2 for a Stonemason; doing so would be failing to use a key feature of the card. (Herald gets a pass. Buy all the $4 Heralds you want.)

Dominion is about efficiency, and if one player wastes resources and the other doesn't, the more efficient player is more likely to win.

So here's the question: What common overinvesting do you see when playing? Which ones would you consider mistakes, and when is it just a side-effect of wanting a unique function of a card that just happens to be giving you something else you don't need?

Here are some examples I see with particular cards:

Festival -- if you're not using the actions and/or +buy, you're paying $5 for Silver.
Minion for $2 -- I've seen players literally never get a new hand in a whole game. Facepalm.
Witch for draw -- if the curses are already gone, that's a $5 Moat. (Torturer, fine, I'll pay $5 for a Smithy.)
Wine Merchant -- if you never buy multiples, and you always leave $2 to get him back, that's a $5 Woodcutter.
Bank -- if ever a card needed +buy...
Highway -- is there +buy or gainers? If not, it's a bad Treasury, worth $4 according to conventional wisdom.
Cursed Village -- Used with terminal draw, it's a $2 Necropolis that hexes you. This is essentially another category: Any time you have a draw-to-X in hand and your hand is already >=X you've overinvested.
Scheme always topdecking itself -- Why did you buy it?
Ghost with deck in hand -- Oops. Exorcise something into an Imp right now or be sad.
Settlers with no Copper. Bustling Village with no Settlers. Either one with no discard pile or sifters -- You have paid for functionality you're not using. Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not, but it's worth pondering if your plan could have been better.

Notice that I'm not listing bad cards here. I'm listing good cards misused by not taking advantage (or not being able to take advantage) of their natural synergy with other card categories.

Sometimes the overinvesting is subtle. I got into a long argument about Highway + University not being a synergy, and it hinges on this very issue: If you're not gaining $6/$7/$8 actions, University is overinvesting in surplus gain value. If you're not using the +2 actions, you're overinvesting in surplus actions. Highway (even without +buy) gains more Highways faster than University because of the addition of two stop cards (University/Potion) to the deck. With +buy it's not even close. And without +buy, Highway might not even be good. (But since many +buy cards are terminal, you might need that University after all!)

There are also plenty of examples where surplus just happens, such as City chains, Champion, King's Court -- lots of explosive engines accidentally generate gobs of +Actions that you don't need once they go off. KC often accidentally generates a bunch of +buys and other things you don't need, as well. But even then, the surplus could be a good indication of what to buy for next turn (if there is one!) Also, you sometimes generate surplus because you're battling to win the split on a key card, which will result in some inefficient turns after the pile empties but before you've bought the other pieces. But battling too hard over a split can also lead to suboptimal play, and a large surplus of anything helps expose this.

Thoughts?


Logged

weesh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
  • MOAR MAGPIES
  • Respect: +351
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2018, 12:26:27 pm »
+4

Ghost with deck in hand -- Oops. Exorcise something into an Imp right now or be sad.

night comes after buy, so simply buying a card is sufficient to not waste your ghost....said the guy that trashed his ghost before he realized this.

in my playgroup, the biggest example of surplus is FLUFF.
if you draw your deck, but don't have payload, you are just creating fluff.  I see people that keep buying more villages and smithies because they neglected economy, and have trouble buying the cards they want.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:30:48 pm by weesh »
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2018, 01:08:08 pm »
+5

A big reason for surplus that you don't mention is to mitigate a lack of consistency. It might well be worth risking a surplus to avoid the risk of a deficit.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 01:39:22 pm »
+2

Quote
night comes after buy, so simply buying a card is sufficient to not waste your ghost

True. I've had "dead Ghost" syndrome when I was greening, though, which tends to go hand-in-hand with drawing deck. I do like the Silver Gainer/Exorcist-Imp/Ghost reliability bump for greening.

Quote
in my playgroup, the biggest example of surplus is FLUFF.

I love it! Fluff! That kind of dovetails nicely with my "payload first" thread.

The biggest problem in my playgroup is the opposite: "I'm going to by another Horse Traders because I keep not drawing my Horse Traders when I need it." What? No! You should buy more draw and draw your ONE Horse Traders every turn! (Asterisk: Sometimes rushes are a thing, but they're not good at seeing those, either.)

The saddest symptom of fluff is the disheartening need to buy more Silver. Bleah. Then again, it's kind of amazing that the game is so well balanced that treasure alone isn't good payload, meaning that sometimes people build fluffy decks when they should really just go money. The delicate balance between when money is good and when engines are good is a real triumph of game design.

Quote
A big reason for surplus that you don't mention is to mitigate a lack of consistency.

True. Sometimes I'll open double-Silver because there's a key $5 that I absolutely must have in the second shuffle and no better way to ensure it, and then end up paying $6 or even $7 for it. The Surplus is still bad, it's just unlucky.

overpaying $1 or $2 for the right card is fine. Buying Gold just because you hit $6 is often worse than buying a power $5. But if you're routinely overpaying, some sort of decision tweaking might be in order. Opening double-Silver is often wrong if there's a better way to ensure $5 that also makes your deck better. Overdrawing falls into much the same category.
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 01:43:45 pm »
0

Another example of surplus to ensure consistency is having enough non-terminal draw in your engine that you're unlikely to get a hand that stalls.

Spending 1 turn buying the Laboratory that will prevent you stalling an expected 1.2 times is good play, even if it causes overdraw.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2018, 01:47:25 pm »
0

Sometimes surplus is an unavoidable consequence of the kingdom. If I'm running a Worker's Village - fuelled engine, I expect to get ridiculous quantities of buys I can't use.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1284
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1971
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2018, 03:17:44 pm »
+1

+Buy is the weirdest of the vanilla bonuses in that its very nature often leads to Surplus.

Sometimes you get Wine Merchant just because it's the only card with +Buy and end up using it as a $5 Woodcutter. There are also some really terrible cards (most infamously Herbalist and Ruined Market) that you spend precious resources to get because of the +Buy.

On the other end of the scale, Grand Market would be a fantastic card even without the +Buy, so you always get a ton of them and usually end up with a lot of superfluous Buys.

Regular Market can sort of swing both ways. It's expensive for what it does, but you usually need it if it's the only +Buy. On the other hand, sometimes it can make decent payload (like if you're getting it for free with Artisan), in which case it's the numerous +Buys that become superfluous.

And, of course, if there's no +Buy at all but the board can still generate large amounts of $ then you end up with a lot of $ you don't use.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2018, 03:56:46 pm »
+2

Quote
Grand Market would be a fantastic card even without the +Buy, so you always get a ton of them and usually end up with a lot of superfluous Buys.

True, but the Surplus can still be illuminating. If it appears in a kingdom with Conspirators (drool) then it would probably be more efficient to stagger them so you're not spending for buys you're not using. With $8 and two buys, two Conspirators is going to be better than GM/nothing, then either two GMs or three Conspirators the turn afterward, depending on the split.

Quote
Regular Market can sort of swing both ways. It's expensive for what it does, but you usually need it if it's the only +Buy. On the other hand, sometimes it can make decent payload (like if you're getting it for free with Artisan), in which case it's the numerous +Buys that become superfluous.

But again, just gaining lots of Markets isn't usually a core strategy. What you're describing is a situation where it's just something to gain with Artisan after you've emptied all of the better $5s and isn't going to hurt your deck. Maybe you end up with surplus buys, but buying lots of markets is a sort of strategy that I've seen beginners use without realizing they're overpaying for resources they're not using. It would be better to fill out the deck with something else that's actually being used.

Quote
And, of course, if there's no +Buy at all but the board can still generate large amounts of $ then you end up with a lot of $ you don't use.

I would consider that one of the most common mistakes of all. If the board has no +buy, you need to get to a reliable $8 per turn as quickly as possible and no more. $10-20 with one buy is almost always an error. If there are gainers or Alt+VP, they need to be leveraged, but making lots more money than you need is genuinely bad.
Logged

Commodore Chuckles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1284
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +1971
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2018, 05:45:07 pm »
0

Quote
Regular Market can sort of swing both ways. It's expensive for what it does, but you usually need it if it's the only +Buy. On the other hand, sometimes it can make decent payload (like if you're getting it for free with Artisan), in which case it's the numerous +Buys that become superfluous.

But again, just gaining lots of Markets isn't usually a core strategy. What you're describing is a situation where it's just something to gain with Artisan after you've emptied all of the better $5s and isn't going to hurt your deck. Maybe you end up with surplus buys, but buying lots of markets is a sort of strategy that I've seen beginners use without realizing they're overpaying for resources they're not using. It would be better to fill out the deck with something else that's actually being used.

Well, that was kind of my point. Market is weak for its price, so you're usually overusing your resources if you're getting a ton of them. If you're buying one just for the +Buy, then you're overusing your resources a little, but in that case you have no choice.

Quote
And, of course, if there's no +Buy at all but the board can still generate large amounts of $ then you end up with a lot of $ you don't use.

I would consider that one of the most common mistakes of all. If the board has no +buy, you need to get to a reliable $8 per turn as quickly as possible and no more. $10-20 with one buy is almost always an error. If there are gainers or Alt+VP, they need to be leveraged, but making lots more money than you need is genuinely bad.

I think maybe I was mostly thinking of some Bank games where I got way more money than I was expecting. So I guess my mistake was underestimating Bank's explosive nature more than anything else.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2018, 03:24:53 pm »
0

Control & resilience vs surplus.
Logged

Chase Adolphson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 228
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chase Adolphson
  • I love dominion!
  • Respect: +130
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2018, 05:44:14 pm »
0

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Logged
I'm glad to be talking with people that like dominion as well.

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 01:37:28 pm »
0

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Really? My experience of online games with this pile is that they tend to end up in mirror matches where both players get at least two copies of each.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 623
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +1018
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 02:14:44 pm »
0

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Really? My experience of online games with this pile is that they tend to end up in mirror matches where both players get at least two copies of each.

I mean...it's pretty clear this dude is trolling at this point, right?
Logged

trivialknot

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 757
  • Respect: +1171
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2018, 03:49:27 pm »
+7

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Really? My experience of online games with this pile is that they tend to end up in mirror matches where both players get at least two copies of each.

I mean...it's pretty clear this dude is trolling at this point, right?
Chase Adolphson is just very young.  Be nice, etc. etc.
Logged

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 715
  • Respect: +1203
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2018, 03:56:57 pm »
+3

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Really? My experience of online games with this pile is that they tend to end up in mirror matches where both players get at least two copies of each.

I mean...it's pretty clear this dude is trolling at this point, right?
Chase Adolphson is just very young.  Be nice, etc. etc.

And his experience playing is in friendly games with his family, not with online cuthroats like us.
Logged

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 623
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +1018
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2018, 04:02:03 pm »
+1

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Really? My experience of online games with this pile is that they tend to end up in mirror matches where both players get at least two copies of each.

I mean...it's pretty clear this dude is trolling at this point, right?
Chase Adolphson is just very young.  Be nice, etc. etc.

arite, arite, sorry. thought maybe it was a Ken M type of situation
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2018, 04:17:49 pm »
0

Chase Adolphson is just very young.
Allegedly. /-8

I don't know. It may just be bad luck, but a lot of what they say seems to be finely calculated to be wrong in ways that cause slight outrage and a smidgen of controversy without being as blatant as "Chapel is a bad card". Meanwhile, those wrong things aren't interspersed with correct things to the degree I'd have expected. I mean, it's pretty easy for even an inexperienced player to say correct things about Dominion once in a while, right?

Also, their remarks seem fairly widely distributed across the forums, cropping up unexpectedly in the middle of some fairly advanced threads such as this one. Call me Mr Suspicious, but it's almost as though it was a sock puppet for an avid forum user.

Having said which, I've not been sure enough to be the one who calls them out.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2018, 04:42:07 pm »
+1

Chase Adolphson is just very young.
Allegedly. /-8

I don't know. It may just be bad luck, but a lot of what they say seems to be finely calculated to be wrong in ways that cause slight outrage and a smidgen of controversy without being as blatant as "Chapel is a bad card". Meanwhile, those wrong things aren't interspersed with correct things to the degree I'd have expected. I mean, it's pretty easy for even an inexperienced player to say correct things about Dominion once in a while, right?

Also, their remarks seem fairly widely distributed across the forums, cropping up unexpectedly in the middle of some fairly advanced threads such as this one. Call me Mr Suspicious, but it's almost as though it was a sock puppet for an avid forum user.

Having said which, I've not been sure enough to be the one who calls them out.

Writing up that fan card thread would have been very time consuming; even if there were things such as formatting that would have taken even more time. If that was just a troll; it was an extremely dedicated one.

Also, we know he's young, it's right below his username: 'Young Witch".
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 04:44:40 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Surplus
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2018, 05:39:29 pm »
+3

If that was just a troll; it was an extremely dedicated one.

It must be Dan!
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2018, 05:44:25 pm »
0

Writing up that fan card thread would have been very time consuming
Ah. I don't routinely read the fan card threads. [looks] I do see what you mean; that smells a lot less like a troll.
Logged

Chase Adolphson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 228
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chase Adolphson
  • I love dominion!
  • Respect: +130
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2018, 07:34:38 am »
+1

Sauna/avanto is one that everybody skips a key factor of. They have an avanto but no sauna and then they can't play any more actions.
Really? My experience of online games with this pile is that they tend to end up in mirror matches where both players get at least two copies of each.


What I meant was no sauna in their hand not their whole deck.
Logged
I'm glad to be talking with people that like dominion as well.

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 08:32:02 am »
0

The main surplus of Sauna/Avanto which I see is the trashing at the end of the game. At least there's no Temple/Mercenary-type compulsory trashing, but normally the need for trashing is satisfied after the second Sauna/Avanto chain.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

weesh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
  • MOAR MAGPIES
  • Respect: +351
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 09:23:20 am »
+2

Recently, I've been seeing surplus trashing.
That is, people continuing to trash coppers when they are already overdrawing their deck, and thus reducing their economy...
Or finally trashing an estate that never lined up...on one of the last turns for the game.
Logged

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2018, 09:53:15 am »
0

I don't think this is the definition of surplus. Surplus is the resource you don't use. What you describe is the excess use of a resource, like buying coppers with your extra buys.

Of course two wrongs can make a right, for instance if you buy extra coppers to keep your Mercenary busy, thus excessively using surpli in the hope they will cancel out.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Surplus
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2018, 04:19:00 pm »
0

I don't think this is the definition of surplus. Surplus is the resource you don't use. What you describe is the excess use of a resource, like buying coppers with your extra buys.

Of course two wrongs can make a right, for instance if you buy extra coppers to keep your Mercenary busy, thus excessively using surpli in the hope they will cancel out.

I dunno, trashing 1 card is the equivalent of adding 1 lab into your deck. So if buying too many labs leads to surplus drawing, then trashing too many cards is a different way of arriving at that surplus drawing. So it's still the drawing that is surplus; not the trashing. But in that case, the way to resolve the issue would be to trash less.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 21 queries.