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Author Topic: Fix the worst cards  (Read 6062 times)

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JThorne

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2018, 05:53:57 pm »
0

Quote
I like it when Treasure-heavy strategies are occasionally competitive.
...
When people denounce Gold gainers on the grounds that Gold is a bad card to have in your deck, I find myself hoping they're wrong or, if they're right, that Donald does something to fix that. Money ought to stay relevant!

Of course Money is always relevant, particularly Gold: It's always in the kingdom!

Let's not forget that a significant issue with learning Dominion is that just buying generic money is better than an unfocused actions-based strategy, and it's possible for beginners to conclude that the game is stupid because all you have to do to win is ignore all the other cards and just buy money.

If gaining Gold was always extremely good, then a single gold-gainer in the kingdom would too frequently outpace the engine and would allow you to ignore all other cards.

I love the fact that if a player overloads on Gold gaining, they generally lose to an engine player who uses Gold-gaining very sparsely in order to build economy but not at the expense of deck-drawing power; a player who knows that stop cards are bad, even if they generate $3.

Money is like direct damage in Magic. It's powerful, and always relevant, but needs to be reigned in so it doesn't dominate the game and make all other cards irrelevant, because it's especially boring.

That said, there are many awesome treasures that I do love, even if Gold is bad.

Quarry and Talisman occasionally make +buy a piledriving powerhouse, and combo with all kinds of cards.

Crown sometimes gets to not be a treasure. Or it can double big deal treasures like Bank. Gold, schmold.

Speaking of doubling, Fortune deserves mention for being the most expensive card in Dominion, and it's a treasure, and it's totally worth it.

Coin of the Realm: An engine-enabling treasure is one of the best things ever.

Of course, there is one treasure that stands head and shoulders above every other treasure in the entire Dominion universe.

All hail the mighty Goat!
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smuggler

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2018, 04:31:58 am »
0

what about if pirate ship either discards or trash the treasure?
this way, the pirate ship player can decide, if he wants to destroy the other players treasure pay load or keep him the coppers
that would address one of pirate ships biggest problems

and thinking of that, i dont know which card may deserve it best, but what about handing out copper as an attack?
or maybe, mine - the treasure you are trashing is gained to the enemy on the left (so even silver ..)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 04:34:19 am by smuggler »
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2018, 04:44:48 am »
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-Duchess: I think the entire point of this card is to make a duchy rush much more viable. Empty one pile to reliably get $5, empty duchies, win. I don't think anyone would want a terminal $2 if they're buying Duchy as consolation prize, and the strategy "Empty three piles including Duchy and Duchess" gets harder and harder as Duchesses are more likely to collide as you get more of them. Some possible solutions that come to mind:
-Remove the interaction effect like Donald said (for all solutions).
-Replace the +$2 with +1 card, +1 action. It's worse at helping you hit $5, heck it's now a slightly better pearl diver, but Duchesses can no longer collide.
-Make it like Cultist. As in "You may play a Duchess from your hand". No collision.
-Make it like Shepherd. As in "You may discard [a/any number of] [Duchesses/Duchies/both] for [+$1/+$1 per discarded card].
-Make it cost more so it's interesting for tfb (like said earlier).
-An on-buy effect would make it more interesting, and also gives you a reason to buy it.

But to be honest I think I would go for it much more often if it was a cantrip instead of a terminal Silver, even if that makes it worse as a standalone card.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2018, 05:59:47 am »
0

Quote
I like it when Treasure-heavy strategies are occasionally competitive.
...
When people denounce Gold gainers on the grounds that Gold is a bad card to have in your deck, I find myself hoping they're wrong or, if they're right, that Donald does something to fix that. Money ought to stay relevant!

Of course Money is always relevant, particularly Gold: It's always in the kingdom!

Curses are also always in the Kingdom, but in most games they are totally irrelevant.
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Oyvind

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2018, 09:38:57 pm »
0

Many nice ideas, man. You should make some fan cards, or even a whole set.
Dude, I did; they were winter holiday themed, and made the front page. https://dominionstrategy.com/2017/12/25/2017-holiday-kingdom/

OMG! Entering Carcassonne - Catapult territory...  :o
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luser

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2018, 05:36:28 am »
+6

Cough *Variants and Fan Cards* Cough
It won't hurt my feelings if a mod wants to move this. I don't always have a great feel for what goes where, but that board seems heavily skewed toward the "fan cards" segment.

I mean, just because it's more fan cards than variants doesn't mean it's still not variants. Anyways, so I'm not just always complaining here's a nice list of variants and fan card threads that touch on this subject:
Many of them have faded with 2nd Editions or weren't that good in the first place, and they're more than often redundant, but they are all linked for completeness.

Man, this thread has nothing about fixing worst cards, there are a lot of worse cards than these:

Sea hag,
I hate this card, it is definitely the worst card in dominion. It drags game soo much as everybody must open with sea hag and buy another hag, then slog with a deck full of curses. Playing this doesn't give you anything leading to poor turns, it should give 2 coins at least.
Definitely, I would drop curse part, for topdecking one could simulate that by picking curse or some other shit from deck/discard. Then it would be an ok card.

Witch
This card drives me mad, when it is in play it takes ages until one could get enough golds to buy out provinces. Curse part must go out. Also, I would add some clause to protect versus other nastiness like the thief stealing your gold.

Ghost ship
Another card that causes games to drag. topdecking isn't fun so remove it. Another problems are that oponent could topdeck good cards and 2 cards are not much. So I would give option to look at these cards and allow discarding them.

Chapel
this is most useless card in game, trash cards and gain nothing in return. As fixed I would give some money and vp tokens to compensate trashing estate. As noob trap I would add clause that opponents could also trash card.

Ill-gotten-gains
Another card that drags games down. If there are no gardens it leads to boring games. With gardens, this is hardly viable as curse helps opponent making his deck bigger. I would avoid cursing and make this gold instead of silver. It could give two coppers on gain, or three on play,  what do you think is better?

Apothecary
When I play with it I get too much green cards on top of my deck. If only there was card that could gain greens into my hand.
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popsofctown

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2018, 09:46:43 pm »
+1

Harvest could be a treasure.  Terminal draw decks are usually short on variety so it should be safe.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2018, 07:34:40 am »
+3

Quote
Chapel
this is most useless card in game, trash cards and gain nothing in return. As fixed I would give some money and vp tokens to compensate trashing estate. As noob trap I would add clause that opponents could also trash card.

This joke is getting really old and wasn't funny to begin with..

heron

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2018, 08:46:35 am »
+1

Harvest could be a treasure.  Terminal draw decks are usually short on variety so it should be safe.

I think this might actually make it weaker though since you might not have any cards left in your deck in the beginning of the buy phase.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2018, 09:39:23 am »
0

Quote
Chapel
this is most useless card in game, trash cards and gain nothing in return. As fixed I would give some money and vp tokens to compensate trashing estate. As noob trap I would add clause that opponents could also trash card.

This joke is getting really old and wasn't funny to begin with..

It's not that joke, it's a new one.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2018, 06:00:35 pm »
0

It's not that joke, it's a new one.
Did the old one Bomb? ;)
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2018, 06:11:38 pm »
+1

Quote from: Wikipedia
Alchemy is a philosophical and protoscientific tradition practiced throughout Europe, Africa and Asia. It aimed to purify, mature, and perfect certain objects.[1][2][n 1] Common aims were chrysopoeia, the transmutation of "base metals" (e.g., lead) into "noble metals" (particularly gold);

Chrysopoeia (fixed Transmute)
Action
Cost: ?
For the remainder of this turn, when you play a treasure, you get +$3 instead of following its instructions.

It's a throned Coppersmith that works for Silver but b0rks your potion. To make it more flexible, make it a treasure; that way it doesn't have to nerf your fancy kingdom treasures. If you do, maybe name it "Philosopher's Stone".

Quote from: Wikipedia
The philosopher's stone, or stone of the philosophers (Latin: lapis philosophorum) is a legendary alchemical substance capable of turning base metals such as mercury into gold (chrysopoeia, from the Greek χρυσός khrusos, "gold", and ποιεῖν poiēin, "to make") or silver.

... oh wait, the rule was that we shouldn't fundamentally alter what the cards do. But, like, man, the set is called Alchemy and there's nothing which turns your base metals treasures into Gold? :o
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2018, 06:37:00 pm »
+2

Chrysopoeia (fixed Transmute)
Action
Cost: ?
For the remainder of this turn, when you play a treasure, you get +$3 instead of following its instructions.
Works well with Talisman and Quarry, if I'm reading this correctly. (Because their fun abilities are while-in-play rather than on-play.)
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2018, 08:29:56 am »
0

Works well with Talisman and Quarry, if I'm reading this correctly. (Because their fun abilities are while-in-play rather than on-play.)
Indeed, good catch. I think that doesn't make the card overly b0rken—occasional strong synergies help make Dominion more fun and varied.
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Marcory

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2018, 11:03:17 am »
+7

Copper: It provides so little income that it's almost worthless. Make it give .
Silver: The problem with this is that it clogs up your engine. Give it the following reaction: "When you play an action, you may discard this from your hand, for + and +1 Card."
Gold: It's just too expensive. Make it cost $4 and people will buy it more often.
Platinum: It's tough to decide whether to buy this or Province. Get rid of that choice; add: "When you gain this, +5"

Estate: it only gives 1 VP and is pretty much useless. Allow this to represent another card in the Supply costing up to .
Duchy: Duchy dancing is more fun at a Ball. So when you gain a Duchy, you should be able to gain 2 cards costing up to in exchange for taking your - token.
Province: Provinces clog up your deck. So add: "When you gain this, put it on your Island mat."
Colony: Colonies need someone to manage them. So add: "When you gain this, gain a Governor."

Curse: Too boring. Instead of Curses, use a card that gives +1 Action, lets you look at the top 4 cards of your deck, add the Victory cards to your hand, and return the rest to your deck in any order.
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ackmondual

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2018, 09:20:34 pm »
0

Anything excluded, I'm fine with as they are.  For some like Mine, I've wanted to add additional comments


Pirate Ship: For 1 Treasure revealed, +1 pirate token.  For 2 or more Treasures revealed (must be by different players), then +2 Pirate token
Noble Brigand: I'd make it go after all non-Copper Treasures, which you must steal it if it hits
Harvest: also add that you may top deck one of the revealed cards
Cache: It's fine.  Quite akin to Banquet
Mine: fine as is.  It's better with alt-Treasures and/or Platinum
Royal Seal: $4 cost as is.  <agree with prev. suggestions>

Transmute: Also have +1 Action.
If trashing a Curse, you get any of the 3 (+1 Duchy, +1 Gold, or +1 Transmute)

Philosopher’s Stone: I haven't found it to be "crippling slow".  If nothing else, great for digital implementations


Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I don’t know if this is fixable. I’d consider it always both attacking and paying?

I like the idea of fixing this without intruding on miser.  But maybe give the choice AFTER getting information...

Code: [Select]
Fixed Pirate Ship
Action - 4$
Each other player with at least (5) cards in hand REVEALS THEIR HAND.
Choose one:
* Trash up to one treasure of your choice from each player's revealed cards, and (then if any treasure was trashed) add a Coin token to your Pirate Ship mat.
* +$1 per Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat
-
(When you gain this, put a coin token on your Pirate Ship mat.)

Stuff in parenthesis is flexible.

Now it's also a handsize attack that reduced their economy for the next turn, and can't even make them discard shitty cards to get to their other cards faster. Is that good enough to get it out of the bottom 10%?  Or did I overdo it?

I think the first time somebody has to trash a Gold—or maybe even a Silver—from their hand, that's it. Rage quit.
4p base game with many Thieves, the guy who complained about some of his Gold and Silver getting swiped also ended up winning!
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jomini

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2018, 11:37:08 am »
0

A few quick fixes:
Mute: pull the Nbrig trick and let it be played on the turn you buy it. T3 gain/trash is much better than T5. This also allows you tactically gain it replacing one dead card (estate) with another mostly dead card (Mute). It still has the weaknesses of Mute in your actual deck - terminal, cannot trash coppers quickly for benefit. But would allow us to play more with its bonuses without the full three shuffle delay. Still have to sacrifice a half a $5 so it the pot/Mute opening is something you have to weigh, but gets rid of the terribly slow on ramp. This would also make it much more viable for engines as again, you do not have to delay a full turn.

Royal seal: keep its current ability, allow it to also set aside your first buy and return it at the start of your next turn (six card starting hand). It gains the benefit of a Caravan, but does not stack and requires you to buy the card. Makes it a much better fit for engines, makes it much more powerful for money.

Mandarin: top deck treasures in play or place your deck in your discard; top deck a card or discard a card that is not a victory card. He retains most of the same fun interactions, gains a boost on opening, and stays a gimped gold (though less gimped on most junking boards). You would buy him for shuffle control much more often.

B-crat: if your opponent reveals no VP, +$1/+1 buy. This takes a lot of the swing out of early B-crat play - whiffing is now a chance to buy a $5 in most opening hands and in an engine he can be an interesting source of +buy. Reliable +buy in the midgame, and maybe needing stacking in the late game; which will eventually tank your engine. Could lead to hilarious green top decking to frustrate opponent +buys.

Philosopher's stone: I would make it an action/treasure. Action: +1$, gain a potion to your hand; treasure: +3$ per potion in play. You can still opt for spam decks, but you can also use it with engines either for value gain or as payload (gold equivalent cash density at $12/4, higher for higher price points). Also it now plays much nicer with other potion cards. Much faster play and also enables a potential fight over the potion pile =)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 11:39:00 am by jomini »
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PortlandSkye

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2018, 09:01:22 pm »
0

A general thought on Alchemy and cards that require a Potion to purchase. There are a number of really good cards here, but I think they get dissed because they require a Potion to purchase so we don't use them a lot since you generally need a few Potion Kingdom cards to make it worthwhile to buy a Potion. They are the 'red-headed stepchild' of Dominion.

What if...it was made optional to require a Potion card to purchase? I'm thinking if you don't have or use a Potion then the card would cost 3-4$ more. If you had a Potion, regular cost; if you don't have a Potion, more expensive.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2018, 07:21:12 am »
+6

A general thought on Alchemy and cards that require a Potion to purchase. There are a number of really good cards here, but I think they get dissed because they require a Potion to purchase so we don't use them a lot since you generally need a few Potion Kingdom cards to make it worthwhile to buy a Potion.
That's a common misconception. Most of the Potion-cost cards avoid that issue by being strong in multiples; getting one Potion so you can get five Alchemists is a pretty strong move.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2018, 10:30:43 am »
0

A general thought on Alchemy and cards that require a Potion to purchase. There are a number of really good cards here, but I think they get dissed because they require a Potion to purchase so we don't use them a lot since you generally need a few Potion Kingdom cards to make it worthwhile to buy a Potion.
That's a common misconception. Most of the Potion-cost cards avoid that issue by being strong in multiples; getting one Potion so you can get five Alchemists is a pretty strong move.

I agree, the idea that you need multiple Potion cards on the board before they are any good is just wrong. Apothecary, University, Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Familiar, Vineyard and to a lesser extent Golem and Possession are often worth it even if they are the only Potion card available. Only Transmute and Philosopher's Stone are useless on their own, but they are generally useless even if there are other Potion cards.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:32:59 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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jomini

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2018, 11:47:12 am »
0

A general thought on Alchemy and cards that require a Potion to purchase. There are a number of really good cards here, but I think they get dissed because they require a Potion to purchase so we don't use them a lot since you generally need a few Potion Kingdom cards to make it worthwhile to buy a Potion.
That's a common misconception. Most of the Potion-cost cards avoid that issue by being strong in multiples; getting one Potion so you can get five Alchemists is a pretty strong move.

I agree, the idea that you need multiple Potion cards on the board before they are any good is just wrong. Apothecary, University, Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Familiar, Vineyard and to a lesser extent Golem and Possession are often worth it even if they are the only Potion card available. Only Transmute and Philosopher's Stone are useless on their own, but they are generally useless even if there are other Potion cards.

Mute is often worth it on a $1P hand on most potion boards. For Alchemist and Familiar it is often the best $2P buy. Yeah, it is dicey on Golem boards, but even there it can be the only way to gain extra VP in a turn (very powerful) and a very nice bootstrap to bigger economy if you can trash it out later. He is, of course, very nice on Pool boards giving both VP and higher action density. On a Familiar board it provides a much needed money density increase and after all, can kill curses. University can struggle to get cash quickly and again may not be able to net more than 6 VP a turn. Possession likes Mute because it can allow you to cripple your cash flow while depleting the duchies.

I have won a good number of games on potion boards where people will buy some marginal $2 or skip altogether rather than add in a Mute.

The real problem for Mute on these boards is the same as always - opportunity cost. Most of the time whatever other spammable card you want is going to preclude buying Mute. Nobody is giving up any of the other Pot cards for Mute in the early game. For the Golem and Possession openers, it is universally better to delay the pot until you can reliably hit Golem/Possession.

So Mute becomes a fallback buy on pot boards with busted hands and sometimes a tactical use of a spare +buy/pot. When is competing against things that cost $3 and both will be there on the same turn, it can come out ahead a reasonable amount of the time.

Try playing sometime where Mute cost 4 - it is better than Dismantle in the early game and may even be better in the mid-late game. Gaining it without having to give up two full buys or a power Pot buy is actually not that painful.

Again, Mute is still not in the top half of the cheap cards ... but it is not so far out of whack without the opportunity cost.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2018, 12:27:58 pm »
0

The real problem for Mute on these boards is the same as always - opportunity cost.
I'd say that the real problem of Transmute is that it converts but doesn't thin. It wouldn't be bought that more often if it costed $0.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2018, 12:46:19 pm »
0

Lazy man's card fixes:

Terminal Actions: Add +1 Action.
Non-terminal Actions: Add +1 Card
Treasures: Add +$1
If any of those don't work for some reason, add +Buy or decrease the card's cost by $1.
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faust

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2018, 12:58:11 pm »
+5

Fixed Transmute - $PP

You may trash a card from your hand. If it's an...

... Action card, gain a Victory card
...Treasure card, gain an Action card
...Victory card, gain a Treasure card.
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jomini

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2018, 02:50:19 pm »
0

The real problem for Mute on these boards is the same as always - opportunity cost.
I'd say that the real problem of Transmute is that it converts but doesn't thin. It wouldn't be bought that more often if it costed $0.

Nonsense. The effect of replacing an estate with a Gold is massive going from a raw $.7/card to a $1 per card. In comparison, this is exactly what you manage with Dismantle but you have one fewer copper. Dismantle breaks even on the second play if it trashes a copper, falls behind further on another estate, and only really comes out ahead once the estates are gone.

Now Dismantle is much more versatile as the game progresses, but Mute would own the early game. Exactly when this flips depends heavily on board, but I would guess around T6-7.

In the late game, Mute can get the advantage by being able to trash out cheap actions for duchies. This is not something to sneeze at. Other cards that accelerate your average cash are not particularly good at gaining green. Dismantle does, but Jack cannot, Dev is reasonably lousy (needing to kill a $4 and top deck a duchy, and whatever $3 is left). For a strong engine, you can hit Duchy every turn with mute for the price of 3 draw (Pot/Mute x2), 1 action, and a spare +buy. In comparison Count needs 2 draw (or trashing) and an action; cash needs 2 draw and a spare +buy; but both of those need to spend a turn (or two) of high value card gains when you might want to buy a Gov or some other power $5 (e.g. Den) instead. A zero cost Mute would be very nearly as good (2 draw, 1 action, 1 buy) late game at duchies as Count and almost as good as raw cash.

Mutes problem is that it plays like a bootstrap card to build deck value ... but is so slow that the game is well past the bootstrap stage when you start getting to play your gold. Not being able to trash coppers (well) is not that big of an issue - Jack is superb, and Trade is a beast even if you never burn a copper.

You can completely trounce people by using Mute on the odd board where you can gain it without burning a "real" turn, and it is the only way to gain more than 6 VP a turn.

Mute would be a perfectly fine (though not top tier) game accelerator with end game potential if it were not for the horrid opportunity cost of gaining it.
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