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Author Topic: Fix the worst cards  (Read 5638 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2018, 02:53:04 pm »
0

I don't know that most of these need "fixing." In fact, many of them already have re-designs in newer sets that used a similar mechanic but to greater effect. Cartographer is arguably a better Navigator, Bandit is a better Noble Brigand (that's how bad Thief was. It needed TWO redesigns.)

I think pirate ship already has been "fixed" in a way, but it's been done so through 2 cards: miser and noble brigand. Miser keeps the concept of building up to get a formidable terminal payload card, and noble brigand fixes the idea of "I want to trash my opponents treasures without doing them a huge favor."

This is a great point you both make. I'm a little slow and just had the "Miser is Pirate Ship!" epiphany a few days ago.

Many of the cards that have been reincarnated were eventually removed from the game (such as Thief, Chancellor).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2018, 02:55:34 pm »
0

Regarding this, I'm interested in ideas for fixing Rebuild. The idea is somewhat intriguing; improve your Estates instead of trashing them, but the implementation... yeah. Would making it terminal be too weak? Maybe make it terminal, but let you choose between upgrading or gaining an Estate?

Any card that lets you almost entirely bypass building up your deck is going to be bad for the game. Either it's too weak to consider, or it's strong enough and makes games boring. And that's pretty much Rebuild's entire concept: play it a lot and gain Provinces.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2018, 02:57:58 pm »
0

Cough *Variants and Fan Cards* Cough

It won't hurt my feelings if a mod wants to move this. I don't always have a great feel for what goes where, but that board seems heavily skewed toward the "fan cards" segment.
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2018, 03:06:09 pm »
0

Any card that lets you almost entirely bypass building up your deck is going to be bad for the game. Either it's too weak to consider, or it's strong enough and makes games boring. And that's pretty much Rebuild's entire concept: play it a lot and gain Provinces.
On the other hand, Expand is fine, and not even considered that great a card. Despite working on things other than Victories.

Ways in which Expand is weaker:
  • Costs more
  • Terminal
  • Works from deck, not from hand
Is there really no way Rebuild could be saved by playing around with one or more of those?
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JW

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2018, 03:41:27 pm »
+3

Any card that lets you almost entirely bypass building up your deck is going to be bad for the game. Either it's too weak to consider, or it's strong enough and makes games boring. And that's pretty much Rebuild's entire concept: play it a lot and gain Provinces.
On the other hand, Expand is fine, and not even considered that great a card. Despite working on things other than Victories.

Ways in which Expand is weaker:
  • Costs more
  • Terminal
  • Works from deck, not from hand
Is there really no way Rebuild could be saved by playing around with one or more of those?

Rebuild $5 Action.
Trash a card from your hand. If it is a Curse, Ruins, Shelter, or Victory card, gain a card costing up to $3 more than it. Otherwise, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Vagrant’s cousin and Remodel’s big brother.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2018, 04:00:16 pm »
0

Any card that lets you almost entirely bypass building up your deck is going to be bad for the game. Either it's too weak to consider, or it's strong enough and makes games boring. And that's pretty much Rebuild's entire concept: play it a lot and gain Provinces.
On the other hand, Expand is fine, and not even considered that great a card. Despite working on things other than Victories.

Ways in which Expand is weaker:
  • Costs more
  • Terminal
  • Works from deck, not from hand
Is there really no way Rebuild could be saved by playing around with one or more of those?

You have to build just to get to Expand.
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trivialknot

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2018, 04:05:08 pm »
+4

Duchess - Give it Scout's ability instead of Spy's, so it actually synergizes with Duchy.
Beggar - It's fine.
Masterpiece - It's fine.
Fortune Teller - Give it Chancellor's ability, since it's already Chancellor for your opponent.
Fool - The problem isn't that it's weak, but that it's slow.  When you're not lost in the woods, gain only one boon, plus a vanilla bonus.  +1 card +1 Action would be cool.
Pirate Ship - Take a coin token even if no treasures are trashed.
Bureaucrat - Let it gain any card costing up to $3.
Navigator - It's fine.
Noble Brigand - Let it steal any non-copper treasure.
Cache - It's fine.
Mine - It's fine.
Mandarin - Give it +buy.
Harem/Royal Seal - Combine them at $5.
Harvest - Give it +buy.

As you can see, I'm amused by the idea of combining two terrible cards to make something better.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2018, 04:56:36 pm »
0

As you can see, I'm amused by the idea of combining two terrible cards to make something better.
Giving harvest the navigator option to leave them or put them back is another possible combo-fix.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2018, 04:57:23 pm »
0

B) Would bump it out of the bottom 10%

But then we would have a different bottom 10%. Wouldn't we have to fix that next?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2018, 05:40:21 pm »
+5

B) Would bump it out of the bottom 10%

But then we would have a different bottom 10%. Wouldn't we have to fix that next?

Well yeah. Gotta keep this place busy somehow.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2018, 05:56:05 pm »
0

B) Would bump it out of the bottom 10%

But then we would have a different bottom 10%. Wouldn't we have to fix that next?

If we keep doing it long enough, we eventually get to a place where all cards are exactly equally strong. Which then largely turns the game into almost pure luck; because it doesn't matter which strategy or cards you go for.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2018, 06:04:53 pm »
0

B) Would bump it out of the bottom 10%

But then we would have a different bottom 10%. Wouldn't we have to fix that next?

If we keep doing it long enough, we eventually get to a place where all cards are exactly equally strong. Which then largely turns the game into almost pure luck; because it doesn't matter which strategy or cards you go for.

Since a flat power curve is impossible, striving for that isn't valuable.
What could be reasonable is figuring out a minimum power level, and buffing the cards below that so that they are more interesting to play with. 
That might be the bottom 5% (about 15 cards) or it might be the bottom 10% or whatever.  Whatever you define it at, there would be a place to stop without committing to an endless process.

---

The mobile game, clash royale, has one of the best power curves I've ever seen.  almost every single card in the game has a place where it is viable.  even the 8 starter cards are strong enough to be useful after you've played thousands of matches.
yeah, there are some stinkers, but mostly those are cards that would be unfun, or too luck based, if they were tier 1 cards. For instance, one card, the pump, was nerfed so that it would fall out of competitive play where it was messing things up, but casual players still get tons of value and fun out of it. 

They got to this point by knocking down the high spots, and filling in the low spots every few months over 2 years.  It might be an continuous process, but the game is better today than it has ever been, and they certainly do not commit to buffing the bottom 10% every patch.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 06:13:27 pm by weesh »
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2018, 06:16:53 pm »
0

Fool - The problem isn't that it's weak, but that it's slow.  When you're not lost in the woods, gain only one boon, plus a vanilla bonus.  +1 card +1 Action would be cool.
You're in danger of making Fool too similar to Pixie, Tracker and/or Bard, though.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2018, 06:22:49 pm »
0

If we keep doing it long enough, we eventually get to a place where all cards are exactly equally strong. Which then largely turns the game into almost pure luck; because it doesn't matter which strategy or cards you go for.

That could happen, but more likely is that all the cards keep getting stronger and stronger, with a different bottom 10% every iteration.
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O

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2018, 06:27:56 pm »
+7

If we keep doing it long enough, we eventually get to a place where all cards are exactly equally strong. Which then largely turns the game into almost pure luck; because it doesn't matter which strategy or cards you go for.

This isn't what would happen at all. Maybe Mine and Torturer become roughly equal strength in a power ranking list but with Fishing Village in the kingdom Torturer is still clearly the better strategy to go for. Card synergies still exist even among a roughly similarly powered card set.

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Donald X.

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2018, 06:49:34 pm »
+24

- Duchess: Change the spying to only spy on yourself. It should stay bottom 10%; you get it free with a Duchy.
- Beggar: Probably leave as-is. The defense is sexier in the context of Dark Ages. The top is great.
- Masterpiece: Leave as-is.
- Fortune Teller: Move to Adventures, change attack to -1 Card token, consider for Warrior slot.
- Fool: The problem is slowness not power level. I might try more one-shot versions, or just drop it.
- Pirate Ship: Arguably Miser is the fixed version.
- Bureaucrat: Eh. Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is. Consider again on the next pass.
- Navigator: Various cards have done this better, most recently Night Watchman.
- Noble Brigand: This is the fixed Thief! But Bandit is more fixed. I wouldn't try to preserve when-gain-attack.
- Harvest: I'd try LF's fix.
- Cache: Move the +1 Buy from Margrave to here (also fixes Margrave). Yes or be happy with Banquet.
- Mine: Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is.
- Mandarin: Do some other card. The top is fine for showcasing a when-gain, so, maybe just some unrelated when-gain.
- Royal Seal: I'd try to find a version that could cost less than $5; that really ups the value of the ability.
- Harem: I'd try the $5 version. Also could be an Event, "+2 VP, gain a Silver." However Intrigue likes having it as a 2-type card.
- Transmute: Arguably Exorcist is the fixed version. The premise is a Remodel that gives you specific cards. For a card called Transmute in an expansion called Alchemy, Dismantle would do the trick.
- Philosopher's Stone: I'd just drop it. Some people cannot count fast enough.
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Donald X.

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 06:53:49 pm »
+6

B) Would bump it out of the bottom 10%

But then we would have a different bottom 10%. Wouldn't we have to fix that next?

If we keep doing it long enough, we eventually get to a place where all cards are exactly equally strong. Which then largely turns the game into almost pure luck; because it doesn't matter which strategy or cards you go for.
You mean, if you keep both improving the bottom 10% and also weakening the top 10%.

The it's-all-luck situation doesn't happen though, because the cards vary in power level depending on which ones are out. It's not like perfect balance implies no decisions either.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2018, 07:32:12 pm »
0

- Harvest: I'd try LF's fix.

Am I blind?  I can't see where lastFootnote addresses harvest.
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AJD

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2018, 07:38:41 pm »
0

- Cache: Move the +1 Buy from Margrave to here (also fixes Margrave).

Huh, interesting, I didn't know Margrave was in need of fixing. I figured that, since Margrave's attack is relatively weak—and unlike Torturer or Rabble, gets weaker the more you play it—the +Buy was there to make it a more attractive engine component. No?

Quote
- Harem: I'd try the $5 version. Also could be an Event, "+2 VP, gain a Silver."

Doesn't Conquest already do this Event better?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2018, 07:41:02 pm »
+3

- Harvest: I'd try LF's fix.

Am I blind?  I can't see where lastFootnote addresses harvest.

From another recent thread:

That being said, I updated my physical Harvest cards so that they put one of the four cards back on top of your deck. It's still not a power card, but it's decent pretty often.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2018, 09:00:54 pm »
+7

Cough *Variants and Fan Cards* Cough
It won't hurt my feelings if a mod wants to move this. I don't always have a great feel for what goes where, but that board seems heavily skewed toward the "fan cards" segment.

I mean, just because it's more fan cards than variants doesn't mean it's still not variants. Anyways, so I'm not just always complaining here's a nice list of variants and fan card threads that touch on this subject:
Many of them have faded with 2nd Editions or weren't that good in the first place, and they're more than often redundant, but they are all linked for completeness.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 11:44:58 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Donald X.

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2018, 04:31:51 am »
+3

Huh, interesting, I didn't know Margrave was in need of fixing. I figured that, since Margrave's attack is relatively weak—and unlike Torturer or Rabble, gets weaker the more you play it—the +Buy was there to make it a more attractive engine component. No?
Margrave got +1 Buy because something in the set needed +1 Buy and that looked like a reasonable spot at the time.

In general getting two engine pieces from one card is a problem; those are significant cards. Some cards will have to do that but I want to be careful with them. I definitely don't want two engine pieces and also it attacks.

Doesn't Conquest already do this Event better?
Yes there's also Conquest.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2018, 04:54:11 am »
+18

- Duchess: Change the spying to only spy on yourself. It should stay bottom 10%; you get it free with a Duchy.
- Beggar: Probably leave as-is. The defense is sexier in the context of Dark Ages. The top is great.
- Masterpiece: Leave as-is.
- Fortune Teller: Move to Adventures, change attack to -1 Card token, consider for Warrior slot.
- Fool: The problem is slowness not power level. I might try more one-shot versions, or just drop it.
- Pirate Ship: Arguably Miser is the fixed version.
- Bureaucrat: Eh. Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is. Consider again on the next pass.
- Navigator: Various cards have done this better, most recently Night Watchman.
- Noble Brigand: This is the fixed Thief! But Bandit is more fixed. I wouldn't try to preserve when-gain-attack.
- Harvest: I'd try LF's fix.
- Cache: Move the +1 Buy from Margrave to here (also fixes Margrave). Yes or be happy with Banquet.
- Mine: Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is.
- Mandarin: Do some other card. The top is fine for showcasing a when-gain, so, maybe just some unrelated when-gain.
- Royal Seal: I'd try to find a version that could cost less than $5; that really ups the value of the ability.
- Harem: I'd try the $5 version. Also could be an Event, "+2 VP, gain a Silver." However Intrigue likes having it as a 2-type card.
- Transmute: Arguably Exorcist is the fixed version. The premise is a Remodel that gives you specific cards. For a card called Transmute in an expansion called Alchemy, Dismantle would do the trick.
- Philosopher's Stone: I'd just drop it. Some people cannot count fast enough.

Many nice ideas, man. You should make some fan cards, or even a whole set.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2018, 07:42:47 am »
0

Part of the problem with Margrave is not just that it's two engine pieces on an attack, but that it's two engine pieces on an attack that creates one decision per victim every time it's played. Scrying Pool has a similar annoying issue.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2018, 08:19:44 am »
+1

Part of the problem with Margrave is not just that it's two engine pieces on an attack, but that it's two engine pieces on an attack that creates one decision per victim every time it's played. Scrying Pool has a similar annoying issue.

That's more of a problem with multiplayer, really.
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