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Author Topic: Fix the worst cards  (Read 5533 times)

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Screwyioux

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2018, 09:29:38 am »
0

- Duchess: Change the spying to only spy on yourself. It should stay bottom 10%; you get it free with a Duchy.
- Beggar: Probably leave as-is. The defense is sexier in the context of Dark Ages. The top is great.
- Masterpiece: Leave as-is.
- Fortune Teller: Move to Adventures, change attack to -1 Card token, consider for Warrior slot.
- Fool: The problem is slowness not power level. I might try more one-shot versions, or just drop it.
- Pirate Ship: Arguably Miser is the fixed version.
- Bureaucrat: Eh. Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is. Consider again on the next pass.
- Navigator: Various cards have done this better, most recently Night Watchman.
- Noble Brigand: This is the fixed Thief! But Bandit is more fixed. I wouldn't try to preserve when-gain-attack.
- Harvest: I'd try LF's fix.
- Cache: Move the +1 Buy from Margrave to here (also fixes Margrave). Yes or be happy with Banquet.
- Mine: Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is.
- Mandarin: Do some other card. The top is fine for showcasing a when-gain, so, maybe just some unrelated when-gain.
- Royal Seal: I'd try to find a version that could cost less than $5; that really ups the value of the ability.
- Harem: I'd try the $5 version. Also could be an Event, "+2 VP, gain a Silver." However Intrigue likes having it as a 2-type card.
- Transmute: Arguably Exorcist is the fixed version. The premise is a Remodel that gives you specific cards. For a card called Transmute in an expansion called Alchemy, Dismantle would do the trick.
- Philosopher's Stone: I'd just drop it. Some people cannot count fast enough.

Many nice ideas, man. You should make some fan cards, or even a whole set.

If Donald made them, wouldn't it just be a new Dominion set?
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Chris is me

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2018, 09:55:16 am »
+4

Iíve been working on a lot of these for a personal project, so hereís where I think they all could go.

Duchess: No player interaction, just the +$2.
Beggar: Fine as-is. Itís a narrow card, it can stay narrow, it has uses where itís amazing.
Masterpiece: Iíve considered making it a $2 cost.
Fortune Teller: The effect is kind of slow, just use the -1 Card token (I also do this for Bureaucrat)
Fool: Fine.
Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I donít know if this is fixable. Iíd consider it always both attacking and paying?
Bureaucrat: -1 Card token instead of weird Victory card thing, top decking the Silver is optional.
Navigator: Fine as is, itís just narrow.
Noble Brigand: Make it trash treasure that isnít Copper, rather than only Silver or Gold.
Harvest: LF had a fix I canít really remember, but really like a lot of bad cards just give it +Buy.
Cache: Give it +Buy and itís perfectly fine.
Mine: Itís a decent card at $4 cost, and thereís no reason to prevent Mine openings.
Mandarin: Itís always gonna be narrow. Maybe just get rid of the top-deck thing on the top.
Royal Seal: $4 cost as is.
Harem: $5 cost, rename it ďManorĒ, remove the generally objectifting art. I think this is LFís idea.
Transmute: Iíve tried a lot for Transmute. +1 Buy, and replace ďgain a TransmuteĒ with ďgain an ActionĒ makes it really fun. Iíve tried cost-restricting the Action but I honestly think itís more fun to not do that.
Philosopherís Stone: $1 per 3 Action cards you have in play. Easier to count, actually sort of does something with Alchemy, and rewarding for certain kinds of decks.
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markusin

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2018, 11:43:08 am »
+2

I'd be fine with a Royal Seal that was worth a Copper for $3 or something. This avoids the issue where it is better than Silver for $4.

I also like Cache getting +buy instead of Mandarin as Donald suggested.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2018, 11:43:49 am »
0

I'd be fine with a Royal Seal that was worth a Copper for $3 or something. This avoids the issue where it is better than Silver for $4.

At that point, it might be a bit redundant with Tracker.
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markusin

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2018, 11:49:42 am »
+1

I'd be fine with a Royal Seal that was worth a Copper for $3 or something. This avoids the issue where it is better than Silver for $4.

At that point, it might be a bit redundant with Tracker.

It's more like Tracker demonstrates that the concept could have worked much better if Royal Seal was cheaper than most of the things you wanted to topdeck. Also, being non-terminal every time is a big deal.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2018, 11:57:05 am »
0

Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I donít know if this is fixable. Iíd consider it always both attacking and paying?

I like the idea of fixing this without intruding on miser.  But maybe give the choice AFTER getting information...

Code: [Select]
Fixed Pirate Ship
Action - 4$
Each other player with at least (5) cards in hand REVEALS THEIR HAND.
Choose one:
* Trash up to one treasure of your choice from each player's revealed cards, and (then if any treasure was trashed) add a Coin token to your Pirate Ship mat.
* +$1 per Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat
-
(When you gain this, put a coin token on your Pirate Ship mat.)

Stuff in parenthesis is flexible.

Now it's also a handsize attack that reduced their economy for the next turn, and can't even make them discard shitty cards to get to their other cards faster. Is that good enough to get it out of the bottom 10%?  Or did I overdo it? 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:05:55 pm by weesh »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2018, 12:04:17 pm »
+3

Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I donít know if this is fixable. Iíd consider it always both attacking and paying?

I like the idea of fixing this without intruding on miser.  But maybe give the choice AFTER getting information...

Code: [Select]
Fixed Pirate Ship
Action - 4$
Each other player with at least (5) cards in hand REVEALS THEIR HAND.
Choose one:
* Trash up to one treasure of your choice from each player's revealed cards, and (then if any treasure was trashed) add a Coin token to your Pirate Ship mat.
* +$1 per Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat
-
(When you gain this, put a coin token on your Pirate Ship mat.)

Stuff in parenthesis is flexible.

Now it's also a handsize attack that reduced their economy for the next turn, and can't even make them discard shitty cards to get to their other cards faster. Is that good enough to get it out of the bottom 10%?  Or did I overdo it?

I think the first time somebody has to trash a Goldóor maybe even a Silverófrom their hand, that's it. Rage quit.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2018, 12:05:11 pm »
0

Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I donít know if this is fixable. Iíd consider it always both attacking and paying?

I like the idea of fixing this without intruding on miser.  But maybe give the choice AFTER getting information...

Code: [Select]
Fixed Pirate Ship
Action - 4$
Each other player with at least (5) cards in hand REVEALS THEIR HAND.
Choose one:
* Trash up to one treasure of your choice from each player's revealed cards, and (then if any treasure was trashed) add a Coin token to your Pirate Ship mat.
* +$1 per Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat
-
(When you gain this, put a coin token on your Pirate Ship mat.)

Stuff in parenthesis is flexible.

Now it's also a handsize attack that reduced their economy for the next turn, and can't even make them discard shitty cards to get to their other cards faster. Is that good enough to get it out of the bottom 10%?  Or did I overdo it?

Choosing a treasure to trash from their hand seems quite strong.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2018, 12:07:33 pm »
0

I think the first time somebody has to trash a Goldóor maybe even a Silverófrom their hand, that's it. Rage quit.
Do you guy gold when this is on the field?  I feel like you might not...

Kept as a handsize attack, but now discards instead of trashing...

Code: [Select]
Fixed Pirate Ship
Action - 4$
Each other player with at least (5) cards in hand reveals their hand.
Choose one:
* DISCARD up to one treasure of your choice from each player's revealed cards, then add a Coin token to your Pirate Ship mat.
* +$1 per Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat

Does this get it out of the bottom 10%?
lol, you just have to be better than stuff like silk road, death cart and nomad camp to be in the top 90%
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:13:03 pm by weesh »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2018, 12:11:59 pm »
0

Iíve been working on a lot of these for a personal project, so hereís where I think they all could go.

Duchess: No player interaction, just the +$2.
Beggar: Fine as-is. Itís a narrow card, it can stay narrow, it has uses where itís amazing.
Masterpiece: Iíve considered making it a $2 cost.
Fortune Teller: The effect is kind of slow, just use the -1 Card token (I also do this for Bureaucrat)
Fool: Fine.
Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I donít know if this is fixable. Iíd consider it always both attacking and paying?
Bureaucrat: -1 Card token instead of weird Victory card thing, top decking the Silver is optional.
Navigator: Fine as is, itís just narrow.
Noble Brigand: Make it trash treasure that isnít Copper, rather than only Silver or Gold.
Harvest: LF had a fix I canít really remember, but really like a lot of bad cards just give it +Buy.
Cache: Give it +Buy and itís perfectly fine.
Mine: Itís a decent card at $4 cost, and thereís no reason to prevent Mine openings.
Mandarin: Itís always gonna be narrow. Maybe just get rid of the top-deck thing on the top.
Royal Seal: $4 cost as is.
Harem: $5 cost, rename it ďManorĒ, remove the generally objectifting art. I think this is LFís idea.
Transmute: Iíve tried a lot for Transmute. +1 Buy, and replace ďgain a TransmuteĒ with ďgain an ActionĒ makes it really fun. Iíve tried cost-restricting the Action but I honestly think itís more fun to not do that.
Philosopherís Stone: $1 per 3 Action cards you have in play. Easier to count, actually sort of does something with Alchemy, and rewarding for certain kinds of decks.

FYI, when I put the list together, most of the cards that people are saying are "narrow, but fine" also seemed that way to me, but I wanted to have a consistent threshold (10%). As a result, I also left off a few cards that I'd love to see fixes for, such as Contraband.

Anyway, I like this Mine fix, and your P-Stone idea is really compelling, but I don't know if the function is quite right. Maybe worth 1 coin base plus $1 for every 3? For what it costs, I feel like it should be easier to get it to Silver.
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Sharajat

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2018, 01:36:47 pm »
0

Most of these don't need to be fixed.  That being said:

Duchess: $2 for each duchy in hand
Masterpiece: Costs $2
Bureaucrat: Puts a card from their hand on top of their deck if they have 5 or more cards in hand
Mandarin: You may put a card from your hand on top of your deck.
Transmute: Treasure, gain an action costing up to $4. 

Easy fix:

Cache: Make it cost $4
Mine: Make it cost $4
Royal Seal: Make it cost $4

They're all $5s that are fine at $4. 
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humcalc216

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2018, 01:38:39 pm »
+1

Iíve been working on a lot of these for a personal project, so hereís where I think they all could go.

Duchess: No player interaction, just the +$2.
Beggar: Fine as-is. Itís a narrow card, it can stay narrow, it has uses where itís amazing.
Masterpiece: Iíve considered making it a $2 cost.
Fortune Teller: The effect is kind of slow, just use the -1 Card token (I also do this for Bureaucrat)
Fool: Fine.
Pirate Ship: Shit dude, I donít know if this is fixable. Iíd consider it always both attacking and paying?
Bureaucrat: -1 Card token instead of weird Victory card thing, top decking the Silver is optional.
Navigator: Fine as is, itís just narrow.
Noble Brigand: Make it trash treasure that isnít Copper, rather than only Silver or Gold.
Harvest: LF had a fix I canít really remember, but really like a lot of bad cards just give it +Buy.
Cache: Give it +Buy and itís perfectly fine.
Mine: Itís a decent card at $4 cost, and thereís no reason to prevent Mine openings.
Mandarin: Itís always gonna be narrow. Maybe just get rid of the top-deck thing on the top.
Royal Seal: $4 cost as is.
Harem: $5 cost, rename it ďManorĒ, remove the generally objectifting art. I think this is LFís idea.
Transmute: Iíve tried a lot for Transmute. +1 Buy, and replace ďgain a TransmuteĒ with ďgain an ActionĒ makes it really fun. Iíve tried cost-restricting the Action but I honestly think itís more fun to not do that.
Philosopherís Stone: $1 per 3 Action cards you have in play. Easier to count, actually sort of does something with Alchemy, and rewarding for certain kinds of decks.

FYI, when I put the list together, most of the cards that people are saying are "narrow, but fine" also seemed that way to me, but I wanted to have a consistent threshold (10%). As a result, I also left off a few cards that I'd love to see fixes for, such as Contraband.

Anyway, I like this Mine fix, and your P-Stone idea is really compelling, but I don't know if the function is quite right. Maybe worth 1 coin base plus $1 for every 3? For what it costs, I feel like it should be easier to get it to Silver.
Contraband is one of those cards that I always think about trying to include in my deck when it's on the board (because I think it's a great concept and I can't resist), and I often try it.  I don't always actually end up using it, but when I do, I often find it's better than I was expecting it to be.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2018, 01:46:52 pm »
+7

- Duchess: Change the spying to only spy on yourself. It should stay bottom 10%; you get it free with a Duchy.
- Beggar: Probably leave as-is. The defense is sexier in the context of Dark Ages. The top is great.
- Masterpiece: Leave as-is.
- Fortune Teller: Move to Adventures, change attack to -1 Card token, consider for Warrior slot.
- Fool: The problem is slowness not power level. I might try more one-shot versions, or just drop it.
- Pirate Ship: Arguably Miser is the fixed version.
- Bureaucrat: Eh. Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is. Consider again on the next pass.
- Navigator: Various cards have done this better, most recently Night Watchman.
- Noble Brigand: This is the fixed Thief! But Bandit is more fixed. I wouldn't try to preserve when-gain-attack.
- Harvest: I'd try LF's fix.
- Cache: Move the +1 Buy from Margrave to here (also fixes Margrave). Yes or be happy with Banquet.
- Mine: Recognize that it's weak but leave as-is.
- Mandarin: Do some other card. The top is fine for showcasing a when-gain, so, maybe just some unrelated when-gain.
- Royal Seal: I'd try to find a version that could cost less than $5; that really ups the value of the ability.
- Harem: I'd try the $5 version. Also could be an Event, "+2 VP, gain a Silver." However Intrigue likes having it as a 2-type card.
- Transmute: Arguably Exorcist is the fixed version. The premise is a Remodel that gives you specific cards. For a card called Transmute in an expansion called Alchemy, Dismantle would do the trick.
- Philosopher's Stone: I'd just drop it. Some people cannot count fast enough.

Many nice ideas, man. You should make some fan cards, or even a whole set.

If Donald made them, wouldn't it just be a new Dominion set?

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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2018, 01:49:59 pm »
+2

Contraband fits well in the Prosperity expansion.

It's quite amusing to play Contraband and watch your neighbour try to second-guess whether they should be prohibiting Colony, Platinum or King's Court. (-8<

I also remember a game where my opponent played Contraband and I named Stonemason. They looked strangely at me and then went "ooooooooh!". With hindsight, I should never have mentioned it.

(This is possibly an anecdote for the AI thread as well. Good luck teaching a computer to keep its stupid mouth shut about something like that!)
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Accatitippi

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2018, 06:09:34 pm »
0

A cool thing to do with Mine, which alone is probably not enough to make it good, but can make it shine occasionally (and be real fun), is to let it upgrade to up to more.

Transmute could gain a decent action instead of more Transmutes. Or it could cost 4, or both.

Fool could have + or even + instead of the three boons thing. Lost in the Woods is the cool thing about Fool, right?

Merchant Ship is another card that would really benefit from a Buy transplantation. The donor being Wharf, of course.

I've tried Harvest with the topdeck thing and it's still pretty weak, but at least that way it has a role beyond being an emergency have-no-other-choice coin source.

Since "every opponent with at least X cards in hand does this and that" has become common and acceptable, Bureaucrat could get a nonstackable attack with a more exciting benefit. Or a choice. The attack as printed could at least be content with gaining the Silver to hand.

Masterpiece for 2$ would scale better at the low costs, and be just as crazy on the high areas.

Philosopher's stone could be priced at , but I'm not sure it would change much its appeal. At least it's less of a crapshot to get. is definitely my least favourite price point in all of Dominion.

I think Navigator, Harem, Fortune teller, Mandarin, and a few others are ready for retirement. Their fixes already exist.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2018, 07:02:50 pm »
0

I have been thinking this as well:
Harem: Make sure it synergizes with Gold gainers Add the phrase: "In games using this, when you gain a Gold, you may exchange it for a Harem"
Cache: Make it produce $4 as opposed to $3. I doubt if that would be too good.
Masterpiece: Reduce its price to $2.
Mine: Add "Gain a Coin token" to its current effect. Now it really is a terminal Silver with long term benefits.


« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:07:44 pm by grrgrrgrr »
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JThorne

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2018, 07:35:31 pm »
+1

Quote
Cache: Make it produce $4 as opposed to $3. I doubt if that would be too good.

It would be too good. Suddenly a hand of Cache/C/C/C/C buys a Province. Optimized Cache/BM would beat a LOT of more interesting strategies.

Don't make money better! Make players work a little harder for their wins. All these $2 Masterpiece suggestions are right up there, as well. Opening Masterpiece/Silver now puts three Silvers in your deck, so your second shuffle hands are going to be around $6 which is now enough for Masterpiece and four Silvers. You can pretty much start greening after the third shuffle. Not to mention if there's a draw card around. Delve/BM is already a thing. $2 Masterpiece would be even more powerful.
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2018, 09:28:41 pm »
0

A cool thing to do with Mine, which alone is probably not enough to make it good, but can make it shine occasionally (and be real fun), is to let it upgrade to up to more.
$4 more seems an interesting prospect. Copper to Potion; Silver to Bank. But, say, Copper to Venture, plus Copper to Platinum in two hops rather than three feels dangerously overpowered.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2018, 11:11:22 pm »
0

Quote
Cache: Make it produce $4 as opposed to $3. I doubt if that would be too good.

It would be too good. Suddenly a hand of Cache/C/C/C/C buys a Province. Optimized Cache/BM would beat a LOT of more interesting strategies.

Don't make money better! Make players work a little harder for their wins. All these $2 Masterpiece suggestions are right up there, as well. Opening Masterpiece/Silver now puts three Silvers in your deck, so your second shuffle hands are going to be around $6 which is now enough for Masterpiece and four Silvers. You can pretty much start greening after the third shuffle. Not to mention if there's a draw card around. Delve/BM is already a thing. $2 Masterpiece would be even more powerful.

I'm not so sure. A Cache that makes $4 sounds pretty interesting to me. You're using this example of a hand of Cache and four Coppers like it's guaranteed to happen. I really don't think it's a big deal.

And I like it when Treasure-heavy strategies are occasionally competitive.
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2018, 11:29:34 pm »
0

You're using this example of a hand of Cache and four Coppers like it's guaranteed to happen.
Then again, the on-gain does make it a whole bunch more likely?

Quote
And I like it when Treasure-heavy strategies are occasionally competitive.
Hear, hear.

When people denounce Gold gainers on the grounds that Gold is a bad card to have in your deck, I find myself hoping they're wrong or, if they're right, that Donald does something to fix that. Money ought to stay relevant!
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Donald X.

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2018, 03:07:13 am »
+12

Many nice ideas, man. You should make some fan cards, or even a whole set.
Dude, I did; they were winter holiday themed, and made the front page. https://dominionstrategy.com/2017/12/25/2017-holiday-kingdom/
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Donald X.

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2018, 03:11:31 am »
+8

Part of the problem with Margrave is not just that it's two engine pieces on an attack, but that it's two engine pieces on an attack that creates one decision per victim every time it's played. Scrying Pool has a similar annoying issue.
For me another thing that stands out is, that in multiplayer, you always line up your village and Margrave. I mean you draw your hand, and you don't have village Margrave, damn. And the next player plays village Margrave village Margrave, and you get to dig through some cards. And the next player does it too, and so does the next, so when it's your turn, you at last have your village Margrave draw, so you get to do it too. So we all always do it.
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Chappy7

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2018, 12:41:50 pm »
0

A cool thing to do with Mine, which alone is probably not enough to make it good, but can make it shine occasionally (and be real fun), is to let it upgrade to up to more.
$4 more seems an interesting prospect. Copper to Potion; Silver to Bank. But, say, Copper to Venture, plus Copper to Platinum in two hops rather than three feels dangerously overpowered.

This was my fix from earlier in the thread.  I think I'd buy it sometimes if it upgraded by 4.
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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2018, 01:39:13 pm »
0

Another "worst in a different way" card: Familiar.

The most common suggestion is to lower the price to 2P. For me, though, this doesn't fix the main problem with the card, which is that it's never fun even if I hit 3P on the first shuffle. You pretty much always have to go for it even though it's such a hassle to get, and then it becomes a bare cantrip when the Curses run out. I know junkers in general have a tendency to be must-buy, but this one in particular rubs me the wrong way because the strategy with it is so boring. You don't have to consider the terminal capacity of your deck, just turn off your brain and buy it.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way about this card. But I think the best fix is not to make it cheaper, but more expensive. Maybe it only costs P but you have to trash the Potion when you buy it. The concept of a cantrip Curser is good, but there should be some mechanism that makes it hard to get more than one and make you really think about whether it's worth getting.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2018, 05:26:49 pm »
+1

Another "worst in a different way" card: Familiar.

The most common suggestion is to lower the price to 2P. For me, though, this doesn't fix the main problem with the card, which is that it's never fun even if I hit 3P on the first shuffle. You pretty much always have to go for it even though it's such a hassle to get, and then it becomes a bare cantrip when the Curses run out. I know junkers in general have a tendency to be must-buy, but this one in particular rubs me the wrong way because the strategy with it is so boring. You don't have to consider the terminal capacity of your deck, just turn off your brain and buy it.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way about this card. But I think the best fix is not to make it cheaper, but more expensive. Maybe it only costs P but you have to trash the Potion when you buy it. The concept of a cantrip Curser is good, but there should be some mechanism that makes it hard to get more than one and make you really think about whether it's worth getting.

This is simply not true anymore. Cursers has become much less relevant and even though Familiar is strong, it's also slow to get in a way that makes it's not an instant auto-buy. I very seldom feel I can "turn off my brain" and go Familiar, at least I need to check if there's something else that would make me lose tempo if I would go for it alone and more so now than before I feel like there is quite many of those options. The potion cost is already the mechanism you are asking for and (granted there is no other potion-cost card) having a confusion card in your deck after the cursers are gone plus a couple of useless cantrips is a bit of a handicap.

Of course the games where Familiar is completely skippable are rather few, but I feel more confident skipping it than I would with say Mountebank or Cultist.
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