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Author Topic: Fix the worst cards  (Read 4743 times)

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Screwyioux

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2018, 08:45:51 am »
+1



It is frankly sad how pretty much every thread on this board eventually has people come in who would rather mock than engage. Likewise how deviation from the groupthink is discouraged. Perhaps the boards would rather posters just stayed mute.

Also this, though.
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phonological loop

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2018, 12:32:39 pm »
+3

Sorry to continue further this meta-discussion, but I want to say that I did not intend to mock anybody with my post. I just wanted to point out that using that strange shorthand makes posts hard to read and confusing for newer players, so perhaps it is best avoided. (For instance, I just picked up this game and jumped in at the end of the thread, and it was not clear to me what card "mute" referred to until someone quoted that post and called it "Transmute.")

Here's a more on-topic question. Given my group won't want to house-rule cards, what bad cards are so bad that the average quality of the game goes up when you exclude them from being chosen for the kingdom? (Define "quality" however you please.) Assume an otherwise all-random kingdom chosen via some app, with all expansions included.

I was thinking at least Harvest and Navigator, perhaps.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:35:33 pm by phonological loop »
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chipperMDW

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2018, 01:29:08 pm »
+5

I was thinking at least Harvest and Navigator, perhaps.

You mean Vest and Gator?
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2018, 01:31:04 pm »
0

I  (largely deliberately) don't have Alchemy.

From the other sets, the cards I leave out as making the game less fun in one way or another are Saboteur, Fool's Gold, Rebuild and Fool.

The occasional sucky card is fine - people don't have to buy them!
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Chris is me

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2018, 01:51:45 pm »
0

The main thing I want to add to the Transmute discussion is that I think the card as a trasher is inherently doomed by the Potion cost - it takes two shuffles to get one, you have a Potion you bought just to get Transmute that you probably donít need anymore, and all that. Trying to rework Transmute to justify its Potion cost requires, at the bare minimum, some way to deal with the Potion other than ďget another TransmuteĒ.

You canít easily just make it $4 cost or whatever - we have Dismantle and Exorcist and the like. One possibility to consider is to give it on buy +Buy like Forum has. This lets you maybe do something with the wasted money on turn 3 or 4, so maybe that helps with the slowness a little. You also should have the option to topdeck it on gain which at least makes it closer to a second shuffle trasher / gainer.

So I think Transmute would best look like this:

+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand. If itís a...
Treasure: gain an Action costing up to $5
Action: gain a Duchy
Victory: gain a Gold
ó-
When you buy this, +1 Buy., and you may gain this to your deck (instead of your discard pile).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2018, 03:02:58 pm »
+2

Sorry to continue further this meta-discussion, but I want to say that I did not intend to mock anybody with my post. I just wanted to point out that using that strange shorthand makes posts hard to read and confusing for newer players, so perhaps it is best avoided. (For instance, I just picked up this game and jumped in at the end of the thread, and it was not clear to me what card "mute" referred to until someone quoted that post and called it "Transmute.")

I was likewise not mocking anybody. But I do think that using too many abbreviations makes things hard to understand. It took me a while to figure out what "pot" meant in that context. And then it was just, do I really want to read the rest of this post where the author has offset a lot of parsing work onto me in order to save themselves a few keystrokes? No, no I don't.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:04:40 pm by LastFootnote »
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guidobass

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #131 on: June 14, 2018, 03:45:50 pm »
0

I'm coming in late with an opinion but, I think if you want to change these cards, then why not just make new cards? Looking over the list, I can see cards that are quite useful in what this game is supposed to be, i.e., a challenge. If every game only had cards that were higher powered, so that every game is a race to an engine, it would be quite boring.

Events and Landmarks are available to add improvements to these cards.

Some of these cards can be very good either at the beginning (mandarin) or end (transmute) of a game.

The game got rid of/replaced some "bad" cards. You are always going to have a lowest group of cards.

As a side thought, I'm going to try some games using only these cards. I don't mind a challenging slog.

Fix Lurker. I hate cards that you are forced to buy because the other player did.
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ipofanes

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2018, 02:47:50 am »
0

So I think Transmute would best look like this:

+1 Buy
Fair enough, a +buy never hurts and is welcome in a kingdom where Ruined Markets are cherished.
Quote
Trash a card from your hand. If itís a...
Treasure: gain an Action costing up to $5
Action: gain a Duchy
Victory: gain a Gold
Sounds like Altar to me, at least in a kingdom without cursers. A Potion would be too cheap as a cost, we are talking 2P to 3P then.
Quote
ó-
When you buy this, +1 Buy., and you may gain this to your deck (instead of your discard pile).
That would partially solve the problem of time to make it work for you.

To me, a simple solution would be to make it an Action/Victory card counting 1VP. That way, it could trash another copy of itself for a Duchy and a Gold.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2018, 02:59:21 am »
0

So I think Transmute would best look like this:

+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand. If itís a...
Treasure: gain an Action costing up to $5
Action: gain a Duchy
Victory: gain a Gold
ó-
When you buy this, +1 Buy., and you may gain this to your deck (instead of your discard pile).
Looks like a step into the right direction but as it is nearly as good as Altar it might be too strong.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2018, 09:10:27 am »
0

Sorry to continue further this meta-discussion, but I want to say that I did not intend to mock anybody with my post. I just wanted to point out that using that strange shorthand makes posts hard to read and confusing for newer players, so perhaps it is best avoided. (For instance, I just picked up this game and jumped in at the end of the thread, and it was not clear to me what card "mute" referred to until someone quoted that post and called it "Transmute.")

Here's a more on-topic question. Given my group won't want to house-rule cards, what bad cards are so bad that the average quality of the game goes up when you exclude them from being chosen for the kingdom? (Define "quality" however you please.) Assume an otherwise all-random kingdom chosen via some app, with all expansions included.

I was thinking at least Harvest and Navigator, perhaps.

That's a good question. It's hard to point to a card that makes games worse for being too weak, because there are always 9 other options in the Kingdom, so there's got to be SOMETHING there, right? Much easier to point to cards decreasing the quality of the game by being too strong or swingy, like Sauna/Avanto and Tournament.

It can be pretty rewarding too to discover a use for these "bad" cards, like I recently got DESTROYED in a big money game because I didn't catch the synergy between Navigator and Tunnel right away.

But that's not really a helpful answer for what you asked. Cards to consider excluding for weakness (with the caveat that you'll miss out on those rare shining moments they have):

-Harvest-- top of the list for sure
-Transmute
-Counting House
-Navigator
-Fortune Teller
-Beggar
-Pirate Ship
-And obviously any of the cards cut out of base and Intrigue for being too weak
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Chris is me

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2018, 10:07:31 am »
0

So I think Transmute would best look like this:

+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand. If itís a...
Treasure: gain an Action costing up to $5
Action: gain a Duchy
Victory: gain a Gold
ó-
When you buy this, +1 Buy., and you may gain this to your deck (instead of your discard pile).
Looks like a step into the right direction but as it is nearly as good as Altar it might be too strong.

If itís too much, you can remove the on buy Buy and maybe add $2 to the cost. The use of Potion in the cost makes it hard to mass a lot of them, and it still takes a long time to get it going much like Altar. Adding $2 to the cost doesnít change much early once the on-buy Buy is gone, but it does make it harder to tack it on to an existing buy later.

I would probably test it as is first and then adjust it down. I need to resume my dominion tweak project now that I have a printer again.
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Dingan

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2018, 12:54:49 pm »
0

So I think Transmute would best look like this:

+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand. If itís a...
Treasure: gain an Action costing up to $5
Action: gain a Duchy
Victory: gain a Gold
ó-
When you buy this, +1 Buy., and you may gain this to your deck (instead of your discard pile).
Looks like a step into the right direction but as it is nearly as good as Altar it might be too strong.

If itís too much, you can remove the on buy Buy and maybe add $2 to the cost. The use of Potion in the cost makes it hard to mass a lot of them, and it still takes a long time to get it going much like Altar. Adding $2 to the cost doesnít change much early once the on-buy Buy is gone, but it does make it harder to tack it on to an existing buy later.

I would probably test it as is first and then adjust it down. I need to resume my dominion tweak project now that I have a printer again.

The 'gain an Action costing up to $5' part also doesn't really fit into the theme of Alchemy -- the only available such cards are Herbalist and Apprentice. Apprentice would be the only one you'd realistically get which could then be used to .. trash the Transmute .. and the Potion.
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AJD

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2018, 02:36:04 pm »
+3

So I think Transmute would best look like this:

+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand. If itís a...
Treasure: gain an Action costing up to $5
Action: gain a Duchy
Victory: gain a Gold
ó-
When you buy this, +1 Buy., and you may gain this to your deck (instead of your discard pile).
Looks like a step into the right direction but as it is nearly as good as Altar it might be too strong.

If itís too much, you can remove the on buy Buy and maybe add $2 to the cost. The use of Potion in the cost makes it hard to mass a lot of them, and it still takes a long time to get it going much like Altar. Adding $2 to the cost doesnít change much early once the on-buy Buy is gone, but it does make it harder to tack it on to an existing buy later.

I would probably test it as is first and then adjust it down. I need to resume my dominion tweak project now that I have a printer again.

The 'gain an Action costing up to $5' part also doesn't really fit into the theme of Alchemy -- the only available such cards are Herbalist and Apprentice. Apprentice would be the only one you'd realistically get which could then be used to .. trash the Transmute .. and the Potion.

Alchemy has a "gain an Action costing up to $5" card.
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phonological loop

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2018, 12:07:25 am »
0

But that's not really a helpful answer for what you asked. Cards to consider excluding for weakness (with the caveat that you'll miss out on those rare shining moments they have):

-Harvest-- top of the list for sure
-Transmute
-Counting House
-Navigator
-Fortune Teller
-Beggar
-Pirate Ship
-And obviously any of the cards cut out of base and Intrigue for being too weak

What about Mandarin? Without Capital on the board, it never seems attractive.

Maybe Dutchess? Possibly Fool just because it's so awkward?
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jomini

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2018, 10:41:23 am »
0

But that's not really a helpful answer for what you asked. Cards to consider excluding for weakness (with the caveat that you'll miss out on those rare shining moments they have):

-Harvest-- top of the list for sure
-Transmute
-Counting House
-Navigator
-Fortune Teller
-Beggar
-Pirate Ship
-And obviously any of the cards cut out of base and Intrigue for being too weak

What about Mandarin? Without Capital on the board, it never seems attractive.

Maybe Dutchess? Possibly Fool just because it's so awkward?

Not saying these are good, but both have niche uses.

Mandarin is good tactical buy on some Colony or Dominate boards. Top decking Plats this way can well be worth it as the VP differential is pretty high between a Duchy now and a likely Colony next turn. Less commonly, it can be clutch for something like Vineyards with a +buy to make sure you grab something next turn. The best case scenario for this is something like Hop - GGSHop or similar can use Mandarin to top deck a Prov hand each turn. I will, very rarely, consider burning a $5 for something clutch like replaying two Idols  to give out the last curse. I have not tried enough, but he might actually combo with Goat enough to merit buying him more to more reliably feed the Goat. With deck tracking, he can be an absolutely clutch buy to hit an early Lamp/Wishes.

Mandarin is also useful for times when topdecking has very high value like Tournement, Moat/attacks, Pool/City quarter. It is just a highly gimped Count in this case, but that still is worth it if it is clutch to either have something in your hands between your turns or if whiffing is enough of a VP differential that overbuilding is worth it. He pairs well with Mystic, but competes at price point. With multiple plays, he is very good with Wwell, Herald, and a few other such things.

What hurts Mandarin is that if you are not using his on gain or top decking as something valuable for your deck, his space efficiency is worse than Silver - as a terminal action. That is harsh. He can let you smooth your cash points a bit ... but for $5 he is very weak if your deck has not real use for top decking or treasure recycling as such.

Duchess is most useful in games where gainers are absent. Duchess can let you gain fodder for a some big Tfb like Altar so you can keep use the trasher after your starting dross is gone. If you are still engine building you have to sacrifice a $5 gain now for two $5 gains later - not often a good bet with the three turn lag ... but actually useful once you want duchies. She is more nichely useful when actions are useful as such - Pool/discard for benefit, Sacrifice-as-only-village, and Gravedigger. More often she is useful to do a three pile (e.g. Duke/Duchy/Duchess, Igg/Duchy/Duchess). The terminal spy power is mostly useless, but a cheap terminal silver can be useful in all the places you would expect - Lib, Wt, Menage, Diplomat, etc.

Fool is an abysmal card. First boons swing wildly to start with, second Fool order often means that one player gets 5/6 boons to the other player's 3 in a shuffle. He would have been far better off with a mechanic where you are "found" from the woods if you discard the Fool without playing him.
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jomini

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2018, 10:51:22 am »
+2

Sorry to continue further this meta-discussion, but I want to say that I did not intend to mock anybody with my post. I just wanted to point out that using that strange shorthand makes posts hard to read and confusing for newer players, so perhaps it is best avoided. (For instance, I just picked up this game and jumped in at the end of the thread, and it was not clear to me what card "mute" referred to until someone quoted that post and called it "Transmute.")

What newer players? This board chases the vast majority of them away.

Basically every single thread ends up with a bunch of people posting mockery/off topic/in-jokes/etiquette nitpicking. Rather than being a place where people come to discuss Dominion, this board has a highly unfortunate tendency to become a place about how you should discuss Dominion while fishing for up votes with snark. Most new players are not that invested and will never become posters here because they already have places in their life for making in-jokes and . The people who actually become "regulars" have a clear survivor bias and frankly stopped being "new players" long before they became regular posters.
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Awaclus

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2018, 12:56:57 pm »
0

What newer players? This board chases the vast majority of them away.

This board doesn't chase new players away, it causes them to improve at the game to the point where they can no longer be considered new players.
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phonological loop

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2018, 02:47:22 pm »
0

Sorry to continue further this meta-discussion, but I want to say that I did not intend to mock anybody with my post. I just wanted to point out that using that strange shorthand makes posts hard to read and confusing for newer players, so perhaps it is best avoided. (For instance, I just picked up this game and jumped in at the end of the thread, and it was not clear to me what card "mute" referred to until someone quoted that post and called it "Transmute.")

What newer players? This board chases the vast majority of them away.

Basically every single thread ends up with a bunch of people posting mockery/off topic/in-jokes/etiquette nitpicking. Rather than being a place where people come to discuss Dominion, this board has a highly unfortunate tendency to become a place about how you should discuss Dominion while fishing for up votes with snark. Most new players are not that invested and will never become posters here because they already have places in their life for making in-jokes and . The people who actually become "regulars" have a clear survivor bias and frankly stopped being "new players" long before they became regular posters.

Thanks for your comments about the cards I listed. You've made a good case that there are sometimes uses for Duchess and Mandarin. However, these are extremely niche, as you admit, and I'm not really sure these uses are common or interesting enough to justify them having a place in the Kingdom compared to another randomly selected card.

Maybe a good solution would just be to replace Mandarin with Count in any Kingdom where it's selected by the app. I'm not sure what to do about Duchess. Potentially it could be replaced by Duke in a similar fashion, if you wish to keep the emphasis on Duchies, though that analogy is much less precise. And Fool could just be replaced with a random card (I'm not sure what a good analogue is).

Regarding your comments about newer players, I can only speak for myself, but I've found the forum and related Discord quite friendly and welcoming. I can get extremely quick feedback on my plays and answers to my questions on the chat at any time of day, and the thread I started about a kingdom here got several very helpful replies within 24 hours. The in-jokes seem infrequent and are easily recognizable as such (imo). For me, a much greater barrier to participation is deciphering shorthand like "Hop" and "GSSHop." I think I was able to decode the rest of your post, but I honestly still have no clue about those. (And I fear the situation would be much worse if I were not already somewhat familiar with all the expansions.)


« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 02:57:27 pm by phonological loop »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2018, 03:18:26 pm »
0

HoP = Horn of Plenty.

GSSHoP = a hand containing Gold, Silver, Silver, Horn of Plenty.
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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2018, 07:47:40 pm »
+2

HoP = Horn of Plenty.

GSSHoP = a hand containing Gold, Silver, Silver, Horn of Plenty.
IHoP = International House of Pancakes
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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2018, 08:00:46 pm »
+1

IHoPb = International House of PancakesBurgers

FTFY.  Well, fixed in the most terrible sense at least.
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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2018, 06:38:35 am »
+4

Sorry to continue further this meta-discussion, but I want to say that I did not intend to mock anybody with my post. I just wanted to point out that using that strange shorthand makes posts hard to read and confusing for newer players, so perhaps it is best avoided. (For instance, I just picked up this game and jumped in at the end of the thread, and it was not clear to me what card "mute" referred to until someone quoted that post and called it "Transmute.")

What newer players? This board chases the vast majority of them away.

Basically every single thread ends up with a bunch of people posting mockery/off topic/in-jokes/etiquette nitpicking. Rather than being a place where people come to discuss Dominion, this board has a highly unfortunate tendency to become a place about how you should discuss Dominion while fishing for up votes with snark. Most new players are not that invested and will never become posters here because they already have places in their life for making in-jokes and . The people who actually become "regulars" have a clear survivor bias and frankly stopped being "new players" long before they became regular posters.
I find it more painful that every single thread ends up with someone complaining about the awfulness of this forum.
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2018, 09:07:15 am »
+1

This board doesn't chase new players away, it causes them to improve at the game to the point where they can no longer be considered new players.
I liked it more back when theory et al. were posting enthusiastic commentary on interesting combos I was excited to try.

Nowadays, it's just you explaining over and over again that being good at Dominion is the opposite of having fun.
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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2018, 10:21:37 am »
0

I liked it more back when theory et al. were posting enthusiastic commentary on interesting combos I was excited to try.

So you liked it more back when you didn't have to play 500 games of Dominion before you had a realistic chance of actually seeing that combination of cards in the kingdom once.

Nowadays, it's just you explaining over and over again that being good at Dominion is the opposite of having fun.

First of all, that's not even close to being true. 90-93%* of posts on f.ds these days are not written by me, and out of the hundreds of posts I wrote, only 12 were on that topic, all 12 of which were posted over the course of 5 days in March, which was over two months ago.

Second of all, getting good at anything takes a lot of hard work and it's not always fun to put in a lot of hard work. You can always word that differently in an attempt to make me look stupid if you find that fact uncomfortable, but just because you find it uncomfortable doesn't mean it's not a fact. In other words, even if that were true:

It's always possible to make a statement in the "X is just Y" format about any X; that doesn't mean X is simple or boring or bad or anything like that, it just means that Y in and of itself is quite complex and more nuanced than the people making that argument realize. You know, electronic music is just some guy sitting on a computer clicking on buttons. Evolution is just a theory.


*actual stats if you define "these days" to be the last n days such that the number is accurate ó the number used to be lower at around the start of the year but in the past few weeks it's been higher
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:25:21 am by Awaclus »
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jomini

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #149 on: June 18, 2018, 08:45:23 pm »
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What newer players? This board chases the vast majority of them away.

This board doesn't chase new players away, it causes them to improve at the game to the point where they can no longer be considered new players.

Right, the board has seen a continuous upsweep in popularity and use. The average join date of posting members continues to decline. Why you can hardly post here with all the new players asking for rules clarifications we've all heard before or suggesting silly card combos that come up once in 1K games.

But seriously, I have no doubt that some players are just so enthralled with Dominion that they put up with the nitpicking, the endless meta-discussion, and the board's unhealthy obsession with becoming a "good player". That is much more a testament to how good Dominion is than how welcoming the board is to people who do not conform.
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