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Author Topic: M114: Wheel of Time II - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 68311 times)

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Robz888

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #400 on: March 26, 2018, 01:15:35 pm »

Vote: theorel since he apparently can't help himself
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theorel

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #401 on: March 26, 2018, 01:16:40 pm »

Deadline is tomorrow, FWIW.

And we still have 5 (PPE: 6) total players even willing to put down a vote.  Well, I guess I'll move my vote to a more productive place, but I'd be happy to switch back to Galzria, if anyone else agrees that his behavior seems off this game.
vote: schadd
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EFHW

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #402 on: March 26, 2018, 03:22:01 pm »

"Almost dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, gloriously alive, today."

Vote Count 2.3

schadd (3): The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, theorel
theorel (3): pingpongsam, Joseph2302, Robz888

Not voting (3): Galzria, schadd, SpaceAnemone

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day ends Tuesday, March 27th at 5:00 p.m.
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pingpongsam

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #403 on: March 26, 2018, 04:01:02 pm »

I was trying to analyse the current wagon and off-wagon configuration and could do nothing but come up with conflicting statements...
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schadd

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« Reply #404 on: March 26, 2018, 05:08:58 pm »

I'm not sure I follow what you're "interested" in.  My original collection of thoughts is just the things that seemed salient from the previous day as I considered each player (and scanned their posts to remember what happened). One of those facts is that mcmc thought there was scum in your argument with witherweaver.  My reaction to that fact, given that mcmc is town, is to temper my original reaction, because I have no particular reason to believe that my read of the situation was in fact the correct one.  I'm not embracing mcmc's reaction, because I have no particular reason to believe that his read was in fact the correct one.

It feels like you accused me of taking mcmc's read and deciding you must be scum because of it, and so I explained the "value" judgments in my reasoning (i.e. recognizing mcmc's alignment reduced my town-read, looking at the rest of the day turned it into a scum-read), but then you accused me of not making a value judgment? I'm not sure what kind of "value" you're expecting...unless you just mean the original post?  I didn't offer much value there for anyone until the conclusion...I think you're just stuck on a style thing.
you seemed to me to be cherrypicking

mcmc said ww and me might be tvs. your reaction was that it was tvt, datswan's reaction was that it was tvt (and you seem to think he was town), space's reaction was that it was tvt (idk there is a decent chance they are town, you can care about someone's read without them being even likely town)

your reaction upon seeing mcmc's post was "nah i disagree" and the fact that you said you tempered your reaction after his flip suggests you wouldn't have been especially convinced by him initially; it seemed more likely to me that you were looking for a way to drop your townread of me and noticed "oh hey mcmc disagreed with me and flipped town" than that you had become convinced by mcmc's claim (especially since your wording didn't suggest you were specifically lending credence to him, e.g. that he is a competent town player or something. that is what i was referring to with a value judgement)

as well you had a rather confident scumread of me because you thought my place on the mcmc wagon was weird but twm and i have been talking about that for a while and you haven't seemed to be interested

vote: theorel
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I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'

schadd

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« Reply #405 on: March 26, 2018, 05:09:20 pm »

that is what i was getting at with the people don't tend to defend partners thing. a lot of people here overvalue vca and are conscious of counterwagons. in response, i have observed very often that scum here will bus often and make little attempt to dislodge a scum wagon if one is building.
Not day 1. Bussing on day 1 is basically suicide. Especially with only two partners.

And I am not even talking about defending. I am just talking about a subtle move toward someone other than mcmc to make it a viable option. I actually anticipated people suspecting me of exactly that when I moved off mcmc which is why I didn't exactly spell it out yesterday.

But OK. I am not going to convince you of this. If you are town, then you are convinced you are town and did a townie thing. If you are scum I am not trying to convince you. But am interested if this idea is working for anyone else or if I am totally off base?
gosh wouldn't you think so. but people do do it. m102 galzria and pps both bussed and lynched faust d1. ww empty bussed both of his partners in 104. i don't immediately remember it for other people who were on wagon. but like people do specifically try to get things like your unvote to happen, as far as i understand that is a significant reason for pps' hammer thing.

i don't suppose the thing i did was townie (idk i could have thought it through more probably, if i had remembered pps would hammer immediately i wouldn't have voted) but i also don't suppose that i unilaterally should have not voted according to your thing
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Joseph2302

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #406 on: March 26, 2018, 06:13:36 pm »

Let's do this thing. Vote: theorel
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Mafia Stats: (correct as of 2017)
Town: 22 games, 8 wins
Scum: 5 games, 3 wins

Joseph2302

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« Reply #407 on: March 26, 2018, 06:14:35 pm »

that is what i was getting at with the people don't tend to defend partners thing. a lot of people here overvalue vca and are conscious of counterwagons. in response, i have observed very often that scum here will bus often and make little attempt to dislodge a scum wagon if one is building.
Not day 1. Bussing on day 1 is basically suicide. Especially with only two partners.

And I am not even talking about defending. I am just talking about a subtle move toward someone other than mcmc to make it a viable option. I actually anticipated people suspecting me of exactly that when I moved off mcmc which is why I didn't exactly spell it out yesterday.

But OK. I am not going to convince you of this. If you are town, then you are convinced you are town and did a townie thing. If you are scum I am not trying to convince you. But am interested if this idea is working for anyone else or if I am totally off base?
gosh wouldn't you think so. but people do do it. m102 galzria and pps both bussed and lynched faust d1. ww empty bussed both of his partners in 104. i don't immediately remember it for other people who were on wagon. but like people do specifically try to get things like your unvote to happen, as far as i understand that is a significant reason for pps' hammer thing.

i don't suppose the thing i did was townie (idk i could have thought it through more probably, if i had remembered pps would hammer immediately i wouldn't have voted) but i also don't suppose that i unilaterally should have not voted according to your thing
Pretty sure that if schadd was scum or SK, he'd have just hammered instead of making a long post like this.
Town read on schadd therefore
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Town: 22 games, 8 wins
Scum: 5 games, 3 wins

SpaceAnemone

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #408 on: March 26, 2018, 06:34:49 pm »

Joseph, how could schadd have hammered if he was the one putting the wagon to L-1 in the first place?

And did you realise with "Let's do the thing" that you were potentially hammering?
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #409 on: March 26, 2018, 06:37:55 pm »

Ah, I've run the vote count now. So other than schadd missing the L-1 announcement then we're good. But you two had me worried there for a while, because I'm townreading theorel!
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #410 on: March 26, 2018, 06:59:21 pm »

Galz re-read and notes.

26 game posts, though that has included some sort of too-busy-to-post period in the runup to this past weekend.

Votes WW at #113, around the schadd-v-WW disagreement, which appears to be him atking a side in that with minimal use of actual words. Makes a better case on it at #140.

Gets a bit more grumpy and confrontational for a while after that.. it's all the stuff complaining at me/TWM for expecting mcmc to cite sources, interspersed with a snark at Awaclus for not participating. This accounts for about 10 of his total game posts.

Returns to vote mcmc at #257, which seems a bit of a turnaround from insisting that it's wasting mcmc's time for us to ask him to tell us what bits of games he's referring to which his very generic statement about scum pushing roleclaims. I'm all for scum being made to do lots of extra legwork! Incidentally, it's also an unannounced L-1, though Swan queries that a couple of posts later.

Galz is also buddying up to Robz a bit in both #257 and #259, calling him a player of quality and reminiscing about old games. There's even a winky emoticon.

At #261 he asks about hwo much scum use daychat (and doesn't get called lazy for expecting other people who remember things better to go through games on his behalf!!). Possibly if I pay less attention to the irony there, I should wonder whether it's a conscious scum attempt to look townie by not knowing.. it almost seems clumsy to me in that respect.

He queries theorel's use of the term "vigged" at #283, which is one of the townier-seeming things he's done, I guess. It was his last post of D1.

Only four posts so far in D2. The first says that today (Monday) is his next available day to post, but actually his second post seems relatively townie and makes a decent point about Robz possibly feigning ignorance about the SK. His most recent two points were just puzzling over my poorly-laid-out thinking over wagons.

My overall take-home is that re-reading his D1 makes me feel scummier about him, but that his contributions to D2 seem like they could come from a busy-town place.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #411 on: March 26, 2018, 07:31:15 pm »

Robz re-read and notes

Only 19 game posts.. this won't take long, will it?

Doesn't give townpoints to Joseph for the massclaim suggestion, but also specifically says he hasn't thought about the utility of a claim in this game. Then posts about being on holiday and is gone till after a prod.

Votes mcmc on his return. He joined the wagon in L-3 position, but it was already looking inevitable. He did come in with the observation that mcmc should perhaps have voted if he was so sure one of schadd and WW would be scum, because 50% is pretty decent.

A couple more posts deal with WW's questions about his use of language around segueing away from talking about schadd-WW to talking about TWM-Galz, and whether his working implied that he also thought that one of schadd and WW may be scum.

There are a few comments back and forth with theorel about vigs, then at post #310 Robz says that scum!theorel would have known mcmc would flip town.. which is the thing Galz points out as evidence that Robz could be scum, because he's possibly-deliberately left the SK out of the thinking he presented.

At #338 Robz one-ups Galz's mini-scum-case by pointing out that Galz shouldn't have discounted SK!theorel from his thinking. I think it's invalid reasoning on Robz's part, though, because Galz was only responding to Robz's earlier statement. Possibly I'm just trying to read too much into a joke post by Robz anyway.

Robz then disappears for ages again.. and I think that's something of benefit to scum in this game, particularly as he doesn't come in with any decent excuse/apology for being prodable for a second time this game (outside of the time he was away). He comes back declaring with a townread on TWM, which seems an odd choice, because I think other people seem more townie.

I'm not impressed by his theorel vote at #400, particularly because Robz justifies it by saying "he apparently can't help himself", which sets Robz's action up as more of a policy vote because theorel is going against Robz's suggestion. Not only did theorel justify why he feels the way he does (and Robz engaged with that not at all), but for someone with a growing wagon at a point where we're nearing a deadline, I'd really like to see votes made with a definite suspicion of scumminess, or at least a pro-town intent, and this doesn't really look like either of those things.
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Witherweaver

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #412 on: March 26, 2018, 07:33:11 pm »

I would lynch Robz.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #413 on: March 26, 2018, 07:41:30 pm »

Okay, so here's my rough thinking:

Robz (scummiest end of the list)
WW, Galz
Joseph, PPS
TWM
schadd, theorel (towniest end of the list)

It rather sucks that my two biggest townreads are the two with wagons, but maybe the game is dead because there are two or three scummy people out there who have observed that town will just eat itself with little-to-no input from them.

Vote: Robz

PPE 1: yeah, go for that!
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #414 on: March 26, 2018, 07:46:03 pm »

Deadline is 10pm my time tomorrow, so I should be home from about an hour before that.

(@Joseph/anyone else on UK-linked timezones, note that we're back to being 5 hours ahead again now our clocks have changed...)
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The_Wine_Merchant

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #415 on: March 26, 2018, 08:26:42 pm »

Unvote
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Losses: M100, M103, M104, M109, M112

MVPs: M91, M96
Win percentage: 54.5 (6/11)

Robz888

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #416 on: March 26, 2018, 08:31:14 pm »

I'm not impressed by his theorel vote at #400, particularly because Robz justifies it by saying "he apparently can't help himself", which sets Robz's action up as more of a policy vote because theorel is going against Robz's suggestion. Not only did theorel justify why he feels the way he does (and Robz engaged with that not at all), but for someone with a growing wagon at a point where we're nearing a deadline, I'd really like to see votes made with a definite suspicion of scumminess, or at least a pro-town intent, and this doesn't really look like either of those things.

It was mostly a policy vote, although I did have a scumread on theorel, as I had noted. I wanted to see if anyone would follow me; schadd did, but it's basically self-preservation so it doesn't say much.

Vote: Space for conveniently townreading the two main wagons--I don't buy your logic, I think you're trying to place yourself in the "see I was right camp" if we lynch town.
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schadd

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #417 on: March 26, 2018, 08:42:12 pm »

Vote: Space for conveniently townreading the two main wagons--I don't buy your logic, I think you're trying to place yourself in the "see I was right camp" if we lynch town.
they townread both of us well in advance of us being wagons
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schadd

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #418 on: March 26, 2018, 08:44:05 pm »

when you say you buy their logic do you mean this
It rather sucks that my two biggest townreads are the two with wagons, but maybe the game is dead because there are two or three scummy people out there who have observed that town will just eat itself with little-to-no input from them.
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Robz888

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #419 on: March 26, 2018, 08:53:56 pm »

when you say you buy their logic do you mean this
It rather sucks that my two biggest townreads are the two with wagons, but maybe the game is dead because there are two or three scummy people out there who have observed that town will just eat itself with little-to-no input from them.

I said I DON'T buy their logic
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Robz888

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #420 on: March 26, 2018, 08:55:39 pm »

when you say you buy their logic do you mean this
It rather sucks that my two biggest townreads are the two with wagons, but maybe the game is dead because there are two or three scummy people out there who have observed that town will just eat itself with little-to-no input from them.

Ugh you're going to make me look things up, blah.
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Robz888

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #421 on: March 26, 2018, 08:55:56 pm »

Instead of finishing this article I need to write, I got a little DAMA.
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schadd

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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #422 on: March 26, 2018, 09:05:37 pm »

oups
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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #423 on: March 26, 2018, 09:43:45 pm »

My access over the next couple weeks will be spotty. Basically moving across the world in a week.
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Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« Reply #424 on: March 26, 2018, 09:45:50 pm »

Vote: Robz
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