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[The_Wine_Merchant]

Found it buried in theorel post 318. schadd could you please answer?

[theorel]

schadd: He has that argument with ww, which now known-town mcmc thought included scum.

i mean you thought it didn't and if you are town you know yourself to be town

True, but now I know that mcmc actually found one of you scummy rather than just trying to get one of you lynched.  So, I'm dialing back my town-v-town read on that interaction some.  Then I scum-read you for the rest of the day, which included that odd "wanted to see what galz did" post.

[theorel]

Reason is that he has stayed completely away from the mcmc wagon. It is obviously the biggest thing going on in the game, but he hasn't voted for him or defended him. He has just ignored it except to say "reasonable" to me and someone else that voted for him.

If mcmc is town then schadd stays off the mislynch wagon. If mcmc is scum, then I don't expect schadd to act this way, but I don't really think mcmc is scum.

i wanted to see if/how galz would leave ww

i asked mcmc what he thought was not tvt

vote: mcmc L-1 people don't tend to defend scum partners on this site, or even avoid voting them really

i townread swan

To clarify, this is the post I'm talking about.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm having thoughts about flips. Like, we need to flip scum, but also we need to make sure our flips are as informative as possible, because for most of us, the only wagon info we're going to be able to fill in is for people who flip as the result of a lynch.

That means flipping a townie who's been around on a lot of wagons and interacted with a bunch of people might still be useful for PoE, if we can't hit scum directly, whereas flipping someone who's been uncharacteristically absent is not so useful. So I really don't like the current schadd wagon, because I don't think he's actual scum.

[pingpongsam]

I'm having thoughts about flips. Like, we need to flip scum, but also we need to make sure our flips are as informative as possible, because for most of us, the only wagon info we're going to be able to fill in is for people who flip as the result of a lynch.

That means flipping a townie who's been around on a lot of wagons and interacted with a bunch of people might still be useful for PoE, if we can't hit scum directly, whereas flipping someone who's been uncharacteristically absent is not so useful. So I really don't like the current schadd wagon, because I don't think he's actual scum.

Sounds to me like you are volunteering.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I'm having thoughts about flips. Like, we need to flip scum, but also we need to make sure our flips are as informative as possible, because for most of us, the only wagon info we're going to be able to fill in is for people who flip as the result of a lynch.

That means flipping a townie who's been around on a lot of wagons and interacted with a bunch of people might still be useful for PoE, if we can't hit scum directly, whereas flipping someone who's been uncharacteristically absent is not so useful. So I really don't like the current schadd wagon, because I don't think he's actual scum.

You say that like the rest of us are only voting for schadd because he has been absent. Which just isn't true.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

weird

my reason for not immediately voting mcmc?

i had no hurry to vote mcmc and as it happens there was a strong reason to not do that (which i mean i wasn't considering specifically but)

What was weird was that you voted, again without reasoning, immediately after I brought up, what I thought was a pretty good point that no other wagons had been seen that whole day and that this meant mcmc was less likely to be scum.

In addition I felt that your example of one interaction with mcmc was weak and forced, about the tvt thing. But you still hadn't ever commented or given an opinion on a read on mcmc either way until I called you out and you voted for him.

your vote for him below for context

Reason is that he has stayed completely away from the mcmc wagon. It is obviously the biggest thing going on in the game, but he hasn't voted for him or defended him. He has just ignored it except to say "reasonable" to me and someone else that voted for him.

If mcmc is town then schadd stays off the mislynch wagon. If mcmc is scum, then I don't expect schadd to act this way, but I don't really think mcmc is scum.

i wanted to see if/how galz would leave ww

i asked mcmc what he thought was not tvt

vote: mcmc L-1 people don't tend to defend scum partners on this site, or even avoid voting them really

i townread swan

In addition you still have not said what the thing about Galz was all about. Still weird. And the thing you say after your vote makes no sense either. I never said that I thought you and mcmc were partners. I had stopped thinking he was scum at this point, to no avail to you and pps who thought it was cool to still hammer away. So I don't know what your point is in including that statement.

Vote: Schadd

Genius play. Just genius

[serious]

do you have any other reasoning for me being scum than what you've posted? 281 and 286

I think the reasons there are pretty much sufficient. In addition, I do not think you have played a town game. There has not been posts that felt like typical schadd. This isn't enough reason to vote for you, but nor is it enough reason to not vote for you given the above. You haven't been around as much, especially later and later after being around earlier. Again, not a reason to vote alone, but it isn't making my impression of you be townie. Something that I typically get from you. Maybe that is just because it is still early in the whole game?

TL;DR. You have done some scummy stuff and you haven't left your normal townie impression

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm having thoughts about flips. Like, we need to flip scum, but also we need to make sure our flips are as informative as possible, because for most of us, the only wagon info we're going to be able to fill in is for people who flip as the result of a lynch.

That means flipping a townie who's been around on a lot of wagons and interacted with a bunch of people might still be useful for PoE, if we can't hit scum directly, whereas flipping someone who's been uncharacteristically absent is not so useful. So I really don't like the current schadd wagon, because I don't think he's actual scum.

Sounds to me like you are volunteering.

Well, I'm not doing such a good job of it if I am, because I haven't voted yet today, and I have a stack of re-reading to do.

You're not showing a great deal of variability in your voting pattern, either.. you were on Theorel for most of yesterday, and you're back there again today already.

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's a snapshot of the game at #178:

  Joseph2302 (2): mcmcsalot, DatSwan
  Witherweaver (2): schadd, Galzria
  mcmcsalot (4): The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, theorel, SpaceAnemone
  theorel (1): pingpongsam
  schadd (1): Joseph2302
  Not Voting (2): Robz888, Awaclus

If we assume Awaclus was a vig kill, and Swan a scum NK very likely to have landed on town, then we have two towns on Joseph. I'd expect scums not to bus as much in this setup than a standard one, just because there's so much less benefit when we don't get clear colours for wagon-reading. So the fact that Joseph's wagon is quite green-looking makes me think he's more likely to be scum, but with pretty low certainty.

If one of those shots was from a vig, then town might actually know the alignment of someone, which might help someone out there with wagon analysis if I point out wagonny things. I don't think it's anti-town for me to show my thinking in this game in particular, because it helps town if scum can PoE each other and take each other out.

Anyway, this and another few other D1 voting states make me think that WW is another interesting person I'd like to hear a lot more from. Awaclus joined his wagon later, too.

[SpaceAnemone]

WW re-read & notes

I don't think I read as much into the "You have chosen... Poorly." quote at #57 as other people did. Seems like casual small-talk that town and scum might make with roughly equal likelihood.

Says he doesn't see mcmc (as scummy) at #104.

Takes exception to schadd's post-facto reasoning at #105. More against him at #115 and #116. He really doesn't seem to like the idea of someone giving current reasoning for not changing an existing vote. At #121 he has: It is like a "it was a kind of weak vote then but now it's stronger" thing that I have found scum does. -- I don't like it as reasoning, because it's definitely something I do as town. I think it's probably even harder to emulate as scum because it involves an evolving underlying thought process, which is something scums don't normally have (though okay, in this particular game there will be other-faction-hunting for them to do).

The slew of low-content responses around #166-#169 seems kind of designed to stay active..

At #172, WW points out that Theorel had "pseudotownslipped, or fake-pseudotownslipped" by talking as if we only have two factions. That seems useful and pro-town.

His frustration over other people answering for mcmc seems pretty genuine at #232 -- his scum-hunting probes are getting trampled on by the wrong people.

Close reading of Robz's analysis makes him question whether Robz thinks he or schadd might be scum after all.

I feel like he took Joseph's pretty shallow level of analysis a bit too seriously at the start of D2, especially given that he ends up having to backtrack at #311 after Robz points out that we don't have flips on the people killed at night.. that all seems a little weird.

Annoyingly, I partially agree with PPS's read on WW at #333, which is "null leaning scum", though I think I'm more strongly in the "null" camp than PPS. Some of WW's stuff seems solidly towny and scum-hunty, but some of it doesn't. He's reasonably active, though, so finding afew "off" posts is pretty par for the course.

[Galzria]

Here's a snapshot of the game at #178:

  Joseph2302 (2): mcmcsalot, DatSwan
  Witherweaver (2): schadd, Galzria
  mcmcsalot (4): The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, theorel, SpaceAnemone
  theorel (1): pingpongsam
  schadd (1): Joseph2302
  Not Voting (2): Robz888, Awaclus

If we assume Awaclus was a vig kill, and Swan a scum NK very likely to have landed on town, then we have two towns on Joseph. I'd expect scums not to bus as much in this setup than a standard one, just because there's so much less benefit when we don't get clear colours for wagon-reading. So the fact that Joseph's wagon is quite green-looking makes me think he's more likely to be scum, but with pretty low certainty.

If one of those shots was from a vig, then town might actually know the alignment of someone, which might help someone out there with wagon analysis if I point out wagonny things. I don't think it's anti-town for me to show my thinking in this game in particular, because it helps town if scum can PoE each other and take each other out.

Anyway, this and another few other D1 voting states make me think that WW is another interesting person I'd like to hear a lot more from. Awaclus joined his wagon later, too.

The idea of Awaclus being the vig kill is something I posited, sure.

Why does that make him more likely to be town?

[theorel]

Here's a snapshot of the game at #178:

  Joseph2302 (2): mcmcsalot, DatSwan
  Witherweaver (2): schadd, Galzria
  mcmcsalot (4): The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, theorel, SpaceAnemone
  theorel (1): pingpongsam
  schadd (1): Joseph2302
  Not Voting (2): Robz888, Awaclus

If we assume Awaclus was a vig kill, and Swan a scum NK very likely to have landed on town, then we have two towns on Joseph. I'd expect scums not to bus as much in this setup than a standard one, just because there's so much less benefit when we don't get clear colours for wagon-reading. So the fact that Joseph's wagon is quite green-looking makes me think he's more likely to be scum, but with pretty low certainty.

If one of those shots was from a vig, then town might actually know the alignment of someone, which might help someone out there with wagon analysis if I point out wagonny things. I don't think it's anti-town for me to show my thinking in this game in particular, because it helps town if scum can PoE each other and take each other out.

Anyway, this and another few other D1 voting states make me think that WW is another interesting person I'd like to hear a lot more from. Awaclus joined his wagon later, too.

Galz points out that Awaclus is not more likely to be town...but I think the reason that even comes up is because you pivoted from Joseph's wagon to ww's with no real explanation.  Joseph had definitely 1, likely 2 town players voting for him.  Witherweaver had votes on him by 3 players that I think have read pretty scummy this game, with no particular reason to believe any of them are (or were) town.

So, why did you decide to re-read Witherweaver, and why did you ignore Joseph after that first line?

[theorel]

Actually, after saying that Awaclus is no more unlikely to be scum, I thought if he might be SK, and remembered (and re-checked) that the SK was not just bulletproof, but 1-shot NK-immune (meaning he couldn't die at all the first time he's targeted).  So, Awaclus and Datswan were guaranteed not the SK.  And, of course, one potential reason for the missing death last night is if the SK was targeted.

[Galzria]

Actually, I realize that what I asked isn't exactly what Space said. My fault for trying to keep up and participate while my mind is on work.

Space's thoughts and points weren't fluid above, and I realize that while they started with the theory that Awaclus was the vig kill, Awaclus wasn't actually on the Joseph wagon - and thus Space didn't suggest anything about his alignment.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Word

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Wordy word word. I am not scum

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I just PPEd myself

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Hahahahahahahahahaha

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Is Joseph still drunk?

[Joseph2302]

Is Joseph still drunk?

Always, I'm an alcoholic

[Joseph2302]

That mcmc lynch had far too much early momentum, which I'm guilty of supporting, so we didn't exactly make scum work hard for that mislynch.

Agreed. People just voted mcmc and didn't move, which makes it easy for scum to get through the mislynch.
Which is why I think the scum were on that wagon

[Joseph2302]

Here's a snapshot of the game at #178:

  Joseph2302 (2): mcmcsalot, DatSwan
  Witherweaver (2): schadd, Galzria
  mcmcsalot (4): The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, theorel, SpaceAnemone
  theorel (1): pingpongsam
  schadd (1): Joseph2302
  Not Voting (2): Robz888, Awaclus

If we assume Awaclus was a vig kill, and Swan a scum NK very likely to have landed on town, then we have two towns on Joseph. I'd expect scums not to bus as much in this setup than a standard one, just because there's so much less benefit when we don't get clear colours for wagon-reading. So the fact that Joseph's wagon is quite green-looking makes me think he's more likely to be scum, but with pretty low certainty.

If one of those shots was from a vig, then town might actually know the alignment of someone, which might help someone out there with wagon analysis if I point out wagonny things. I don't think it's anti-town for me to show my thinking in this game in particular, because it helps town if scum can PoE each other and take each other out.

Anyway, this and another few other D1 voting states make me think that WW is another interesting person I'd like to hear a lot more from. Awaclus joined his wagon later, too.

It is true that 2 towns were on me, but I think there was at least 1 scum on mcmc at that time.
So I think there's 1-2 scum in {The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, theorel, SpaceAnemone}.

On a side note, no-one seems to think Space is scum this game, which is interesting & unusual.

Vote: theorel is the option I want to take right now

[Witherweaver]

I would say that, condional on nothing that has happened in this specific game, there is a decent chance that there was no Vig shot.

[Witherweaver]

Is Joseph still drunk?

Always, I'm an alcoholic

You two should be good friends then.

[Witherweaver]

Actually, after saying that Awaclus is no more unlikely to be scum, I thought if he might be SK, and remembered (and re-checked) that the SK was not just bulletproof, but 1-shot NK-immune (meaning he couldn't die at all the first time he's targeted).  So, Awaclus and Datswan were guaranteed not the SK.  And, of course, one potential reason for the missing death last night is if the SK was targeted.

I think my lady doth protest too much.

This is useful, though.