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Author Topic: Dominion:Cities  (Read 3921 times)

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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2018, 04:50:47 pm »
+4

I've seen people try to make Dominion cards with outrageous costs, and heck, I even made a few of them back before my FDS days. The reason people make them is simple: Sometimes you love making crazy engines and don't care about emptying the Provinces, and what if you had an amazing expensive + card? How cool would that be! It sounds like you played some games with them and I'm guessing they went like this:
  • You built a kingdom beforehand that would enable you to reach 20+ costs and go engine crazy, or at least you didn't go full random.
  • You specifically saved up to buy with and play with these cards, and prioritized getting them over winning on Provinces.
  • The game went long and it eventually ended once people got bored and started buying Provinces.
Point being, you were not playing to win, you were playing to use the cards. And that's fun and all, nobody's stopping you from doing that. But you need to realize that the cards you have here don't fit within the usual Dominion mindset of winning the game as fast as possible. Even if "$25, +100 Cards" is balanced it's never going to work in a game where all players are trying to win, because the game will have ended way before then. This is assuming the card is balanced too, some of your cards could lock people out if they were spammed or have other balancing issues.

I know it feels like you're getting a bunch of crap, and why am I, it was so much fun playing with them. We've all made some problematic cards at some time or another just because we've always wanted a card that does X outlandish thing or I just love cards that do X if only there were more. But I'd encourage you to read Rinkwork's Guide and see the thoughts there and think about the criticism. In the end, you can play with whatever cards you want and have fun with it, but if you take some well-meant criticism you might just be able to expand your knowledge of Dominion and it's strategy.

The only part I haven't done yet is the art. Please give me your suggestions.

Deviantart is usually a good place to browse, and I would suggest just finding a good picture of a castle or so and use the "more like this" feature to poke around through some good art.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2018, 05:00:20 pm »
+1

I actually don't agree that there can't or shouldn't be other cards with the Curse type. I think it's obvious by typical Dominion wording that "Gain a ___" refers to a specific card name, whereas "If it's a ___" refers to card types. So for example, Fortune Teller or Vagrant interacts with OP's Curse type cards. I get that it might make things confusing to have a Name and Type called "Curse", given that effects in Dominion can refer to Names or Types. But, be 100% honest: is that really OP's fault? Just saying, don't blame a fan card creator for a minor flaw with the game he's designing fan cards for.

Gendo, your critiques are spot on, but I actually think that a version of Cursed Store (or really any "Curse" type card) could create a fun little mini-game where you have a really strong card that you need to get rid of before emptying the Provinces or three-piling. I kind of think of Wine Merchant, only instead of the goal being "get this thing back into my deck", the goal is "get this thing into the trash". Though as it exists currently, I agree that it's too good relative to cost. It probably needs to be changed so that it's harder to trash and so the penalty for not trashing it is higher.

If I were to design a card with that mini-game goal in mind, I'd probably 1) Playtest it with -2VP so that you're less likely to just leave them in your deck at the end, 2) Make it a Reaction, give the player a specific goal that when met allows them to trash the card, and 3) Add specific wording that prevents you from trashing it any other way (maybe something like "When you do blah blah blah, you may trash this. If you trash this any other way, put it into your discard pile")
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2018, 05:18:15 pm »
+1

I think it's obvious by typical Dominion wording that "Gain a ___" refers to a specific card name

Yeah, I love gaining cards named "Victory" with Rebuild.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2018, 05:32:18 pm »
+2

I think it's obvious by typical Dominion wording that "Gain a ___" refers to a specific card name
Yeah, I love gaining cards named "Victory" with Rebuild.
Rebuild says "gain a Victory Card", not "gain a Victory"
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 05:42:35 pm »
0

There's no real reason to have the curse type on cards other than to confuse people. The cleanest way to do a -vp card is to have it give each other player vp tokens when it's gained. This also gets rid of the fact the drawback doesn't do anything if it's easy to trash the card.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2018, 05:42:41 pm »
+1

Hero says "Gain a Treasure".
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2018, 06:15:58 pm »
0

There's no real reason to have the curse type on cards other than to confuse people.
OR to trigger off of cards that refer to the Curse type. Maybe it's not a good reason, but it is a real reason.

The cleanest way to do a -vp card is to have it give each other player vp tokens when it's gained. This also gets rid of the fact the drawback doesn't do anything if it's easy to trash the card.

It also makes it so that you definitely aren't going to be trashing that card you just paid such a high price for. Depending on OP's goal, that may be more or less preferable.

Even if we agree to avoid the Curse type, is it really so confusing to print "-1VP" on a card? We already have Poor House with its "-$1"
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2018, 06:18:13 pm »
+1

Hero says "Gain a Treasure".
Fair enough. You've changed my mind.
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2018, 06:55:02 pm »
+1

There's no real reason to have the curse type on cards other than to confuse people.
OR to trigger off of cards that refer to the Curse type. Maybe it's not a good reason, but it is a real reason.

If the intent is that Witch doesn't give out Cursed Coins or whatever only like Vagrant would actually interact. Patrol says Curses as does Fortune Teller so would be referring to the name "Curse" Vagrant says "Curse card" so is referring to the type. There could be a few cards I missed but I don't  think this qualifies as a reason because it doesn't work.

The cleanest way to do a -vp card is to have it give each other player vp tokens when it's gained. This also gets rid of the fact the drawback doesn't do anything if it's easy to trash the card.

It also makes it so that you definitely aren't going to be trashing that card you just paid such a high price for. Depending on OP's goal, that may be more or less preferable.

Even if we agree to avoid the Curse type, is it really so confusing to print "-1VP" on a card? We already have Poor House with its "-$1"

Who said you're paying a high price? I don't really understand your point, I'll still remodel the crap out the thing if I want but I still suffer the -vp with the token version.

I never said the -1vp was confusing. We already have Curse with -1vp   :P.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2018, 07:24:36 pm »
+1

The cleanest way to do a -vp card is to have it give each other player vp tokens when it's gained. This also gets rid of the fact the drawback doesn't do anything if it's easy to trash the card.
It also makes it so that you definitely aren't going to be trashing that card you just paid such a high price for. Depending on OP's goal, that may be more or less preferable.
Even if we agree to avoid the Curse type, is it really so confusing to print "-1VP" on a card? We already have Poor House with its "-$1"
Who said you're paying a high price?
Lol, me. I'm the one who said it :P Though, I was exaggerating a little.

I don't really understand your point, I'll still remodel the crap out the thing if I want but I still suffer the -vp with the token version
That giving my opponents each a VP chip is worse than giving myself a Curse (or some pseudo-curse card) which I may be able to trash later, so it just depends on what OP is going for. I'm saying it's a totally legit solution to the problem, OP would just have to decide what kind of experience they're going for. Either they want it to be possible (but difficult) to get rid of the penalty, or they don't.

I never said the -1vp was confusing. We already have Curse with -1vp
Haha right, so we agree then. My bad, I thought that when you said the simplest solution was to give everyone else a VP, that you were saying that printing "-1VP" would be too confusing
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2018, 09:02:09 pm »
+3

Hero says "Gain a Treasure".
Fair enough. You've changed my mind.

Generally these days, it's "Treasure" instead of "Treasure card". It's always "Victory card", because e.g. "discard a Victory" sounds weird. Action is a case-by-case basis. It's "Action card” when it needs to be clear that it's a card we're talking about, not an action "point”. But "Discard an Action" can work, since it implies that it's a card.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:37:48 am by LastFootnote »
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2018, 01:20:52 am »
0

Part of the reason I made cards with the curse type is to make powerful cards cheap. Cursed coin is one that you can open with if you get 5/2. Also when you remodel it at the end of the game you can get a kings court.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2018, 07:09:57 am »
+1

Part of the reason I made cards with the curse type is to make powerful cards cheap. Cursed coin is one that you can open with if you get 5/2. Also when you remodel it at the end of the game you can get a kings court.

I get what you're saying, but your card can still have -1VP and not have the Curse type. Like, it could be the exact same card, but classified as an Action-Victory instead.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2018, 09:44:40 am »
+1

Part of the reason I made cards with the curse type is to make powerful cards cheap. Cursed coin is one that you can open with if you get 5/2. Also when you remodel it at the end of the game you can get a kings court.

I get what you're saying, but your card can still have -1VP and not have the Curse type. Like, it could be the exact same card, but classified as an Action-Victory instead.

Right. Both with the Curse type and the Attack type on Rainbow, you (Chase) seem to be making the mistake of thinking that types are based off of theme. "This card hurts your opponents, so it should be an attack" is not correct. Look at Ill-gotten Gains; note that it does not have the attack type. The reason for a card to have the attack type is so that someone can react with things like Moat when they are played. In the case of Rainbow, the Attack type does nothing other than allow it to be gained with Squire and buff Courtier. But it would confuse people into wondering if they can use their Moat when one is revealed.

Similar thing with Curse. The Curse type doesn't mean that the card is worth negative points. It doesn't mean anything inherently; it only changes how it interacts with specific other cards.
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2018, 11:57:43 am »
+1

Might Rainbow be workable if it said "when an opponent plays an Attack card, you may play this as a copy of that attack card"? It would still probably have issues, but it might at least be coherent in terms of rules.
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2018, 12:12:27 pm »
+1

Might Rainbow be workable if it said "when an opponent plays an Attack card, you may play this as a copy of that attack card"? It would still probably have issues, but it might at least be coherent in terms of rules.
That's a good thought. It might have to have a lot of Caravan Guard-esque exceptions listed in parentheses. It would probably also need the Band of Misfits/Overlord clause: "this is that card until it leaves play"
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 06:25:03 pm »
0

One reason I made rainbow is because the other attacks are also very brutal. Why it has the attack type is because of squire and courtier. Curse is also because of courtier.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2018, 06:26:20 pm »
+1

Also if you haven't noticed I experimented with the types. None of the cards have the same type combo.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2018, 06:36:22 pm »
+4

One reason I made rainbow is because the other attacks are also very brutal. Why it has the attack type is because of squire and courtier. Curse is also because of courtier.

The problem is that there's only 2 real options:

1) Rainbow isn't good enough to protect against attacks. In this situation, you just ignore it and deal with attacks the same ways you have to in most games of Dominion.

2) Rainbow makes attacks not worth it. In this case, players just don't buy attacks. Which means that you just don't buy Rainbow. If someone buys an attack with Rainbow available, they're making a mistake. If someone buys Rainbow when attacks are available, they're making a mistake. Either way, the right move is to not buy any attacks or Rainbows.

Notice how cards like Moat have a function that makes them useful, even if only slightly, in any game of Dominion. The attack protection is just an extra bonus. And not one that makes it so that you don't want to play attacks yourself.

I'm surprised that the Squire interaction was meant to be intentional, because it makes it so that in the right Kingdoms, you can very easily gain a card (Lurker is the easiest example, but any trasher with Squire in the Kingdom will do). And if the card is easy to gain (and you actually want to gain it), then it doesn't make sense to have it cost in the first place.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 06:37:59 pm by GendoIkari »
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2018, 06:53:58 pm »
0

My favorite thing about villain is that if you have five of them each other player discards their whole hand
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2018, 06:59:28 pm »
0

My favorite thing about villain is that if you have five of them each other player discards their whole hand
I'm not trying to be mean, but, do you think that could ever realistically happen? At that point you would've spent like a hundred coins and could have easily ended the game already
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2018, 08:17:41 pm »
+2

My favorite thing about villain is that if you have five of them each other player discards their whole hand
I'm not trying to be mean, but, do you think that could ever realistically happen? At that point you would've spent like a hundred coins and could have easily ended the game already

And more importantly, doesn't that ruin the game for them if it happens? Seems kinda sucky to be shut out.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2018, 12:10:22 am »
0

Are people misunderstanding army because its really powerful and people are saying its not that good
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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2018, 12:16:38 am »
0

Discard down to 2 is way too powerful. You could probably do something with a 3 card hand. You can do way less with a 2 card hand.

Wait and its $15. So now its too weak cause who's gonna be able to reach it. Reaction seems fine on anything else, but not on something costing $15.

...have you gotten our message that there's a guide to making fan cards on this forum yet? I'll even link it to you: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Dominion:Cities
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2018, 12:18:32 am »
0

The main reason for the $20+ cards is that lots of times when I'm playing with my parents we always have $20+ but no extra buy. So I wanted to make that less frustrating.
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