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Author Topic: Shuffle Definition  (Read 84707 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2012, 11:18:33 am »
0

Great, then we are back to the question of how to discard given that there's no means to randomize your deck and discarding in any type of order is cheating.
No, you just need to come up with a way that sufficiently randomizes your deck. I never said that that's impossible.
Look, it's not that complicated. You have to follow the rules, and that means discard on top. You need to sufficiently randomize your deck, which means lots of shuffling at the least. And you shouldn't be trying to consciously take advantage of any lack of randomness by the order of your discards.
Of course, if you can come up with a perfect randomization algorithm, then great, and it doesn't matter which order you discard in, except still follow the discard-on-top rule.
The big issue is trying to pathologically take advantage of the inherent lack of randomness you get from shuffling. Like, I assume we're talking friendly games, so you don't want to bend over backwards trying to get stuff perfectly random. But because it's friendly you can also not try to weirdly discard to take advantage of things.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2012, 11:20:40 am »
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My second favorite is the statement that if you take an action with the intent to influence the deck, irrespective of such action's chance of actually effecting that intent, you are cheating. Just remember, when you hope you will draw a good hand, you are cheating. It's a thoughtcrime!

Yeah, attempted murder is still bad even if you don't actually succeed in killing the guy. I don't understand what's hard about that. And because you're 'taking an action', it's not just in thought. Clearly.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2012, 11:21:38 am »
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Just in case Taco Lobster's walls of texts for the last couple pages have made people forget:

"If my hand consisted of 2 terminal actions, I will put one at the front of the hand and one at the back in the hopes that when I shuffle, they will stay further apart."

"At best, it's attempting to compensate for the fact that mechanical shuffling doesn't always do the best job randomizing the deck."

For all your talk of proper randomization and bla bla, you're very clearly in the wrong, and I hope you haven't convinced anyone reading this thread of anything else.
Feel free to follow-up once you find the rule about the order of discarding/intent to have a better shuffle that's being broken since it's apparently a black and white issue that you've cleanly solved.  You could've done it pages ago and saved everyone from my walls of text.
Check out the second post of the thread.

RisingJaguar

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2012, 11:27:42 am »
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As I said before, good luck prosecuting the voodoo practioner for attempted murder.
The point wasn't to catch every single cheater out there by the slimmest of margins or figure out how to catch people in the act of cheating.  It's to define what constitutes as cheating.  We're just trying to set general guidelines on what constitutes as cheating. 
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Ozle

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2012, 11:35:47 am »
+6

on a side note, I just tried the sacrificing a duck thing and its complately untrue, drew both torturers same hand.
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danno

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2012, 11:36:59 am »
+1

See http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/course/topics/winning_number.html

7 shuffles and your conscience is clean.

Seems like a lot of sacrificed bits over this issue ...

Cheers

Dan
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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2012, 11:40:43 am »
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7 shuffles with 52 cards though, so I reckon anything less than 30 and your good with 4 or 5?
(In the same way it says that 2 decks would need to be shuffled 9 times)
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ecq

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2012, 11:42:59 am »
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This thread is way too complicated.  It can all be resolved by common sense.  Put cards on top of the discard pile in whatever order is quickest.  When you shuffle, do so thoroughly.  If, after shuffling, you think you might get screwed by cards being discarded in whatever order, shuffle more.  I've heard the magic number of 7 shuffles for a poker deck as well (and had it drilled into me by my card shark grandmother).

In other words, take any neurotic discard behavior and turn it into neurotic shuffling behavior.

Also, learn to live with the fact that randomness doesn't always look random.  Yesterday on Isotropic I had a draw pile of > 20 cards, 6 of which were Golds.  I drew 5 Golds in one hand (the 6th missed the next shuffle, argh).  It happens once in a blue moon and doesn't mean the random number generator or your shuffling is broken.  It's a problem if you never see a hand like that.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:54:14 am by ecq »
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DStu

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2012, 11:47:24 am »
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7 shuffles with 52 cards though, so I reckon anything less than 30 and your good with 4 or 5?
(In the same way it says that 2 decks would need to be shuffled 9 times)

If you're refer to the paper, I think 7 is too low, as this is only the 3/2log n-term, ignoring the \theta, which you also want to have to be greater than zero. And I don't think that number decreases much, as it's only logarithmically dependend on n, so 25 cards about one shuffle less than 50.

Table 3 gives numbers. What may rescue you with lower numbers is that we are not talking about 25 distinct cards, but usually many of them will be same.

Edit: If you think "real" shuffling will take to long and you want some preprocessing, do pile shuffling. That way you can't take advantage over "real" randomness because you can't* really influence the ....... wait ....

What about this: You play BMU, so every discard will consist of 6 cards. Now if your buy is always at the same position of this discarded cards, and you are pileshuffling on say 3 or 6 piles, you clumb all your buys together, which in the beginning will be the good cards (and in the end the bad ones). Assumming not perfect shuffling now this will result in a probably better deck than it would be without pile shuffling...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:53:26 am by DStu »
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2012, 11:57:14 am »
0

Just in case Taco Lobster's walls of texts for the last couple pages have made people forget:

"If my hand consisted of 2 terminal actions, I will put one at the front of the hand and one at the back in the hopes that when I shuffle, they will stay further apart."

"At best, it's attempting to compensate for the fact that mechanical shuffling doesn't always do the best job randomizing the deck."

For all your talk of proper randomization and bla bla, you're very clearly in the wrong, and I hope you haven't convinced anyone reading this thread of anything else.
Feel free to follow-up once you find the rule about the order of discarding/intent to have a better shuffle that's being broken since it's apparently a black and white issue that you've cleanly solved.  You could've done it pages ago and saved everyone from my walls of text.
Check out the second post of the thread.

You mean the post where the rule for what you do with a gained card is set forth?  If you can explain how that appiles to discarding from your hand, I'm all ears.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2012, 11:58:32 am »
0

My second favorite is the statement that if you take an action with the intent to influence the deck, irrespective of such action's chance of actually effecting that intent, you are cheating. Just remember, when you hope you will draw a good hand, you are cheating. It's a thoughtcrime!

Yeah, attempted murder is still bad even if you don't actually succeed in killing the guy. I don't understand what's hard about that. And because you're 'taking an action', it's not just in thought. Clearly.

Great.  Call the police, I just committed attempted murder by taking an action with the intent to kill someone.  If I attempt to kill someone by charging my phone, with the full intent of killing someone, that's not attempted murder, and if they die, that's not murder.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2012, 11:59:31 am »
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What if I don't understand how Mine works, and I think the gained card goes in my discard pile instead of in my hand.  Intending to cheat, I put the card in my hand instead.  Did I just cheat because I had the intent to cheat and took an action, even though I could legally take that action?

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2012, 12:00:26 pm »
0

Just in case Taco Lobster's walls of texts for the last couple pages have made people forget:

"If my hand consisted of 2 terminal actions, I will put one at the front of the hand and one at the back in the hopes that when I shuffle, they will stay further apart."

"At best, it's attempting to compensate for the fact that mechanical shuffling doesn't always do the best job randomizing the deck."

For all your talk of proper randomization and bla bla, you're very clearly in the wrong, and I hope you haven't convinced anyone reading this thread of anything else.
Feel free to follow-up once you find the rule about the order of discarding/intent to have a better shuffle that's being broken since it's apparently a black and white issue that you've cleanly solved.  You could've done it pages ago and saved everyone from my walls of text.
Check out the second post of the thread.

You mean the post where the rule for what you do with a gained card is set forth?  If you can explain how that appiles to discarding from your hand, I'm all ears.
All discards go on top of the discard pile. Not just gains.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2012, 12:00:35 pm »
0

What if I don't understand how Mine works, and I think the gained card goes in my discard pile instead of in my hand.  Intending to cheat, I put the card in my hand instead.  Did I just cheat because I had the intent to cheat and took an action, even though I could legally take that action?


Yes.

Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2012, 12:02:53 pm »
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This thread is way too complicated.  It can all be resolved by common sense.  Put cards on top of the discard pile in whatever order is quickest.  When you shuffle, do so thoroughly.  If, after shuffling, you think you might get screwed by cards being discarded in whatever order, shuffle more.  I've heard the magic number of 7 shuffles for a poker deck as well (and had it drilled into me by my card shark grandmother).

In other words, take any neurotic discard behavior and turn it into neurotic shuffling behavior.

Also, learn to live with the fact that randomness doesn't always look random.  Yesterday on Isotropic I had a draw pile of > 20 cards, 6 of which were Golds.  I drew 5 Golds in one hand (the 6th missed the next shuffle, argh).  It happens once in a blue moon and doesn't mean the random number generator or your shuffling is broken.  It's a problem if you never see a hand like that.

I agree.  This whole discarding issue is (a) negligible and (b) irrational.  To start saying it's cheating to take an action which you're allowed to do (discarding your cards in any order) when it doesn't have an effect (because you shuffled sufficiently), is absurd.

I think this quote from A Few Good Men sums up my feelings:

Lieutenant Dave Spradling: I'm going to charge him with possession and being under the influence while on duty. You plead guilty I recommend 30 days in the brig with loss of rank and pay.
Kaffee: It was oregano, Dave. It was 10 dollars worth of oregano.
Lieutenant Dave Spradling: Yeah, but your client thought it was marijuana.
Kaffee: My client's a moron that's not against the law.
Lieutenant Dave Spradling: Kaffee, I have people to answer to just like you do. I'm going to charge him.
Kaffee: With what? Possession of a condiment?
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2012, 12:03:30 pm »
0

Just in case Taco Lobster's walls of texts for the last couple pages have made people forget:

"If my hand consisted of 2 terminal actions, I will put one at the front of the hand and one at the back in the hopes that when I shuffle, they will stay further apart."

"At best, it's attempting to compensate for the fact that mechanical shuffling doesn't always do the best job randomizing the deck."

For all your talk of proper randomization and bla bla, you're very clearly in the wrong, and I hope you haven't convinced anyone reading this thread of anything else.
Feel free to follow-up once you find the rule about the order of discarding/intent to have a better shuffle that's being broken since it's apparently a black and white issue that you've cleanly solved.  You could've done it pages ago and saved everyone from my walls of text.
Check out the second post of the thread.

You mean the post where the rule for what you do with a gained card is set forth?  If you can explain how that appiles to discarding from your hand, I'm all ears.
All discards go on top of the discard pile. Not just gains.

Terrific.  That's still not what we're talking about, but terrific.  We're talking about the order in which you discard from your hand into the discard pile.
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DStu

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2012, 12:04:30 pm »
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My second favorite is the statement that if you take an action with the intent to influence the deck, irrespective of such action's chance of actually effecting that intent, you are cheating. Just remember, when you hope you will draw a good hand, you are cheating. It's a thoughtcrime!

Yeah, attempted murder is still bad even if you don't actually succeed in killing the guy. I don't understand what's hard about that. And because you're 'taking an action', it's not just in thought. Clearly.

Great.  Call the police, I just committed attempted murder by taking an action with the intent to kill someone.  If I attempt to kill someone by charging my phone, with the full intent of killing someone, that's not attempted murder, and if they die, that's not murder.

IANAL, but I remember being told by law students that if you believe that the actions you will take will kill someone, this is attempted murder. At least in Germany.  But of course that was after some beer, so i don't know. Is OT anyway...

My opinion: If it's not cheating, it's at least exploiting. If it works or not is hard to tell, because it only doesn't work if you are shuffling correctly. And if you already prepare to exploit the shuffling, why should I believe you that you want to shuffle correctly? And it's hard to tell if you improve an event with 15% probability to one with 20% probability...
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2012, 12:04:37 pm »
0

What if I don't understand how Mine works, and I think the gained card goes in my discard pile instead of in my hand.  Intending to cheat, I put the card in my hand instead.  Did I just cheat because I had the intent to cheat and took an action, even though I could legally take that action?


Yes.

Uh, how?  How is that cheating? 

If I play every hand intending to cheat but follow the rules in doing so, is that cheating?

If I bought my dominion cards in the belief that they were magic and would work better for me and me alone, is that cheating?

« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 12:07:23 pm by Taco Lobster »
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Robz888

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2012, 12:05:40 pm »
0

What if I don't understand how Mine works, and I think the gained card goes in my discard pile instead of in my hand.  Intending to cheat, I put the card in my hand instead.  Did I just cheat because I had the intent to cheat and took an action, even though I could legally take that action?


Yes.

You obviously attempted to cheat, so that would be a shame on you.

Look, Dominion is a game of strategy, and some luck. It's a fun game and we all love it. If you play in person, it's also a game of constant, thorough shuffling. If you try to manipulate the outcome of a shuffle, you are playing in bad faith, even if you fail to manipulate the outcome of the shuffle. Don't do it. Gained cards on top, in whatever order, and shuffle, shuffle, shuffle shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. (7 times!)
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2012, 12:06:32 pm »
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IANAL, but I remember being told by law students that if you believe that the actions you will take will kill someone, this is attempted murder. At least in Germany.  But of course that was after some beer, so i don't know. Is OT anyway...

IAL, and it depends on the facts, but there comes a point where the act performed and the result desired are so impossibly unconnected that a charge of attempted murder will not fly.  Most of the scenarios I've posited here are ones that get hashed out in Criminal Law classes all the time. 

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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2012, 12:09:55 pm »
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What's most hilarious about this all is the underlying assumption that this ordering of the discard pile actually works.  Unless it's paired with a way of manipulating the shuffle, it doesn't do anything.  It mostly arises as a response to bad luck, e.g. you get a hand with two Witches, you play one, get annoyed that they collided, and discard the one in play first and the one in your hand last.  That's the typical situation - an irrational, human response to bad luck, not some diabolically clever and impossible way to cheat/exploit the game. 
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greatexpectations

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2012, 12:10:43 pm »
+4

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DStu

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2012, 12:10:51 pm »
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IANAL, but I remember being told by law students that if you believe that the actions you will take will kill someone, this is attempted murder. At least in Germany.  But of course that was after some beer, so i don't know. Is OT anyway...

IAL, and it depends on the facts, but there comes a point where the act performed and the result desired are so impossibly unconnected that a charge of attempted murder will not fly.  Most of the scenarios I've posited here are ones that get hashed out in Criminal Law classes all the time.

But we obviously are not at such a point with shuffling. It is absolutely clear that even with 7 or 10 shufflings, you don't get a perfectly mixed state. So there is some remaining influence of the starting state. You want to manipulate the starting state so that the outcome of the (imperfect) shuffle is to your favour.

So now than just it is allowed by the rules to choose the order of the discard. Maybe yes. But the rules say: "shuffle", by which they certainly mean: "shuffle as perfect as possible". Now manipulating the starting states while maybe obeying rule one, the order of the discard", is nevertheless against at least the spirit of rule 2, the shuffling. So it's an exploit.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #123 on: February 28, 2012, 12:17:10 pm »
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So now than just it is allowed by the rules to choose the order of the discard. Maybe yes. But the rules say: "shuffle", by which they certainly mean: "shuffle as perfect as possible". Now manipulating the starting states while maybe obeying rule one, the order of the discard", is nevertheless against at least the spirit of rule 2, the shuffling. So it's an exploit.

Okay, but how do I discard then?  Every act of playing cards orders them in a certain way.  Every act of discarding either preserves or disrupts that order.  Do you have to discard in a way that favors you least?  Do you have to determine the most neutral order of the discard?  If I discard the clumps with the hopes that I will pick up the action clump in my next hand (hooray City stack!), does that constitute manipulating the discard pile?  Do I have a duty to shuffle the cards if I think dumping a clump of action cards in the discard pile will result in a better hand in the future? 

Note that if the rule was along the lines of "randomize your cards in play and hand, and then discard," that'd make me happy in the same irrational way because I would feel like I was de-clumping the cards.
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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #124 on: February 28, 2012, 12:22:15 pm »
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What's most hilarious about this all is the underlying assumption that this ordering of the discard pile actually works.  Unless it's paired with a way of manipulating the shuffle, it doesn't do anything.  It mostly arises as a response to bad luck, e.g. you get a hand with two Witches, you play one, get annoyed that they collided, and discard the one in play first and the one in your hand last.  That's the typical situation - an irrational, human response to bad luck, not some diabolically clever and impossible way to cheat/exploit the game.

I think there is a whole universe of gray scales between conciously not putting two cards together are already seperated as response to bad luck and arranging your village-smithychain from the table into VSVSVSVSVGGGGG.
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