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[RisingJaguar]

Ergo, it follows that if you are discarding in a way such that you intend to modify the uniform randomness of the deck post shuffle, you must be either cheating or delusional or both.

Which action is the cheating?  The discarding, or the not sufficiently randomizing the deck?  If it's the discarding, how is that cheating?  What rule does it break? 

I guess I just don't understand what the correct way of discarding is in order to avoid cheating under this very liberal definition.  If I end up with stacks of treasures, stacks of actions, and stacks of victory cards because that's the finished state of playing an ordered turn, how do I put those in my discard pile and not cheat?  Seriously - how?  I can't shuffle them together because I could be doing so in the hopes of avoiding clumps.  I can't put them in a stack in my discard pile, because I can do so in the hopes that they do clump and that I get a bunch of treasure.

The post shuffling is the problem, he says the sentence before that the silly order shouldn't matter hypothetically if you have amazing shuffling.  But a lot of us do not, and don't have the patience to do that.

Also if you have two decks, both shuffled the same, one with 'normal' order, one with 'funny' order.  The funny order inherently has been altered, even if its marginal. 

What it sounds like for your case, you seem to be doing okay.  I presume you take care POST shuffle to compensate, and have no clue where cards are.  That's not to say everyone else does that as well, and those people (with intention to distort the order before and after shuffle) are cheating.

[rrenaud]

Discard in any way you want.  Just make sure you shuffle enough that the discard order doesn't matter.

Or fuck it, admit that dominion sucks IRL compared to on iso, and just play on iso while you still can.  Problem solved .

[theory]

Maybe it's a combination of multiple factors.

Stacking the deck doesn't itself mean you cheat if you then generate a true random shuffle.  And you do need to discard in some way, and there is no obligation to "spread out" your stuff before starting your random shuffle.

Generating a random shuffle is clearly not cheating.

The problem is that no person in real life generates perfect randomness with their shuffle, and players know it.  It is therefore cheating to stack the deck with the intent that your subsequent pseudorandom shuffle generates better than expected outcomes.  What if you just happen to like to stack your card types before shuffling, for aesthetic reasons?  Then it's your obligation to do your best to generate a true random shuffle.  This obligation is not present if you are unaware of the arrangement of your discards.

[Taco Lobster]

Also if you have two decks, both shuffled the same, one with 'normal' order, one with 'funny' order.  The funny order inherently has been altered, even if its marginal. 

What it sounds like for your case, you seem to be doing okay.  I presume you take care POST shuffle to compensate, and have no clue where cards are.  That's not to say everyone else does that as well, and those people (with intention to distort the order before and after shuffle) are cheating.

Absolutely.  That's why I keep emphasizing the need to shuffle. 

I guess I look at it like this: the act of playing dominion results in non-random, ordered clumps of cards.  That's just as much a non-random starting point as the carefully laid out action, treasure, action, treasure method.  To avoid ending up with a large number of non-random clumps, you order the discard pile so as not to have clumps.  Then you shuffle like mad because that should do an even better job of breaking up the non-random clumps.  Finally, if you want some tournament style rules, you provide the opponent an opportunity to cut the deck and/or demand further shuffling. 

It's not possible to enforce a vague rule based on the intent of the order of your discard or your style of shuffling.  It is possible to add precautions to increase randomness, which is a much better way of addressing the problem than trying to bring cheating into the picture.

[Taco Lobster]

Discard in any way you want.  Just make sure you shuffle enough that the discard order doesn't matter.

Or fuck it, admit that dominion sucks IRL compared to on iso, and just play on iso while you still can.  Problem solved .

Done!

[ftl]

Maybe I'm a really bad shuffler, and I can't adequately randomize my deck.  If I were to shuffle without doing some additional pre-randomization (because, let's face it, the cards end up in non-random clumps through the act of playing them) my shuffle would be even less random than if I just shuffled the clumps (which would stay as non-random clumps).

The statistician in me cries at this

If you break up clumps you are NOT randomizing your deck. You're rearranging it from one non-random ordering (clumped) to another non-random ordering (not clumped). Neither one of those is inherently 'more random' than the other.

'Pre-randomization' is entirely a mis-nomer. This isn't randomizing your deck - you're rearranging it from one non-random configuration which you don't like to a new non-random configuration which you do like, just in case this non-randomness happens to get preserved through imperfect shuffling.

[RisingJaguar]

Also if you have two decks, both shuffled the same, one with 'normal' order, one with 'funny' order.  The funny order inherently has been altered, even if its marginal. 

What it sounds like for your case, you seem to be doing okay.  I presume you take care POST shuffle to compensate, and have no clue where cards are.  That's not to say everyone else does that as well, and those people (with intention to distort the order before and after shuffle) are cheating.

Absolutely.  That's why I keep emphasizing the need to shuffle. 

I guess I look at it like this: the act of playing dominion results in non-random, ordered clumps of cards.  That's just as much a non-random starting point as the carefully laid out action, treasure, action, treasure method.  To avoid ending up with a large number of non-random clumps, you order the discard pile so as not to have clumps.  Then you shuffle like mad because that should do an even better job of breaking up the non-random clumps.

That's great shuffling! Better than me.  But you're probably only defending a small portion of people, and definitely not the people this thread was created for. 

[Taco Lobster]

Maybe I'm a really bad shuffler, and I can't adequately randomize my deck.  If I were to shuffle without doing some additional pre-randomization (because, let's face it, the cards end up in non-random clumps through the act of playing them) my shuffle would be even less random than if I just shuffled the clumps (which would stay as non-random clumps).

The statistician in me cries at this

If you break up clumps you are NOT randomizing your deck. You're rearranging it from one non-random ordering (clumped) to another non-random ordering (not clumped). Neither one of those is inherently 'more random' than the other.

'Pre-randomization' is entirely a mis-nomer. This isn't randomizing your deck - you're rearranging it from one non-random configuration which you don't like to a new non-random configuration which you do like, just in case this non-randomness happens to get preserved through imperfect shuffling.

See subsequent post clarifying the point.  Is there an obligation to put your discard in non-randomized clumps? 

[jonts26]

Am I really the only one who plays action cards in one stack, treasure in another stack, sets aside the victory cards in a third stack, and then riffle shuffle each pile into the other on my first shuffle of a good engine deck that draws itself?  Is that cheating?  Why? 

Well you are only supposed to have one discard pile and since you aren't allowed to look through your discard pile, ordering your cards before you reshuffle is in fact cheating in and of itself.

EDIT: Also, the rules state you must place discarded cards on top of the discard pile. The cards which are discarded together can be placed in any order.

[Axxle]

Isn't there a rule that you can't look through your discard unless a card allows you to?

edit: jonts26 beat me to it.

[Taco Lobster]

Well you are only supposed to have one discard pile and since you aren't allowed to look through your discard pile, ordering your cards before you reshuffle is in fact cheating in and of itself.

I do have one discard pile.  I could just as easily discard my cards in the order I want rather than piling them and riffle shuffling.  I'm not talking about the discard pile at this point, I'm talking about cleaning up the piles of cards in front of you after drawing and playing your entire deck. 

EDIT: Also, the rules state you must place discarded cards on top of the discard pile. The cards which are discarded together can be placed in any order.

So no one else does this with an engine that draws itself?  Do you play with cards randomly strewn in front of you so they don't form non-random clumps, or do you just dump the clumps into the discard pile.

[variance]

Can honestly say I feel dumber after reading this thread. And so...to add to the debate I would love to see someone prove, mathematically, how the placement of two cards pre-shuffle can effect outcome of the inherent draw (given that the shuffle was considered 'adequate' by a casino's standards). 

pro-tip: I'm trying

[jonts26]

Well you are only supposed to have one discard pile and since you aren't allowed to look through your discard pile, ordering your cards before you reshuffle is in fact cheating in and of itself.

I do have one discard pile.  I could just as easily discard my cards in the order I want rather than piling them and riffle shuffling.  I'm not talking about the discard pile at this point, I'm talking about cleaning up the piles of cards in front of you after drawing and playing your entire deck. 

EDIT: Also, the rules state you must place discarded cards on top of the discard pile. The cards which are discarded together can be placed in any order.

So no one else does this with an engine that draws itself?  Do you play with cards randomly strewn in front of you so they don't form non-random clumps, or do you just dump the clumps into the discard pile.

Apologies, I misread your post. It seemed to me like you were organizing your cards before you shuffled your discard pile to make a new draw deck. But everything I said is still true. You can discard your current hand however you feel like. If you want to shuffle it before you do, go nuts.

And if you do draw your whole deck you can order all of your cards however you want before discarding. But you still have to randomize them when you make your draw pile.

[ftl]

I would love to see someone prove, mathematically, how the placement of two cards pre-shuffle can effect outcome of the inherent draw (given that the shuffle was considered 'adequate' by a casino's standards). 

I strongly suspect that an average shuffle in a game of Dominion would not be considered adequate by casino standards. What would be far more relevant would be a proof of how the placement of two cards pre-shuffle can affect the outcome of draws assuming a sufficiently *bad* shuffle.

[Taco Lobster]

I'm really curious now - how do people play engine decks/shuffle them when they are finished with a turn?  Just scoop em on up?  Do you throw down the handful of victory cards prior to doing the scoop, or do you discard them and then do the scoop?  Can't you manipulate the way you scoop to influence the outcome of your deck to the same extent as ordering your deck? 

Does any of this change if the intent is to avoid the non-random clumps as opposed to ordering the cards for a better turn? 

[jonts26]

I'm really curious now - how do people play engine decks/shuffle them when they are finished with a turn?  Just scoop em on up?  Do you throw down the handful of victory cards prior to doing the scoop, or do you discard them and then do the scoop?  Can't you manipulate the way you scoop to influence the outcome of your deck to the same extent as ordering your deck? 

Does any of this change if the intent is to avoid the non-random clumps as opposed to ordering the cards for a better turn?

As has been already stated, if the shuffle is good enough, the order of the discard has no statistical effect on the order of the draw pile. If the shuffle is bad, you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally. Personally I just scoop them all up and throw them on the discard. But I think I do a fairly good job in shuffling. At least, I shuffle way more than most of the other people I play with, and usually incorporate multiple methods per shuffle.

[Robz888]

I'm really curious now - how do people play engine decks/shuffle them when they are finished with a turn?  Just scoop em on up?  Do you throw down the handful of victory cards prior to doing the scoop, or do you discard them and then do the scoop?  Can't you manipulate the way you scoop to influence the outcome of your deck to the same extent as ordering your deck? 

Does any of this change if the intent is to avoid the non-random clumps as opposed to ordering the cards for a better turn?

You can't manipulate anything. You MUST shuffle enough so that it doesn't matter what order the cards went into the discard. Do the cool bridge shuffle 7 times. Make the cards into a "Go Fish" fishy pond. Offer your neighbor a cut. Why is this so confusing?

[Taco Lobster]

As has been already stated, if the shuffle is good enough, the order of the discard has no statistical effect on the order of the draw pile. If the shuffle is bad, you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally.

I know, that's what I've been saying for 2 pages now!    

But people keep saying that because mechanical shuffles are inherently non-random, any ordering of your discard pile is cheating.  That leads me to the question of how people are handling the non-random clumps that occur through playing Dominion. 

[ftl]

 

I'm really curious now - how do people play engine decks/shuffle them when they are finished with a turn?  Just scoop em on up?  Do you throw down the handful of victory cards prior to doing the scoop, or do you discard them and then do the scoop? 

I hadn't really thought about it. When I play, I place actions in a tree structure to keep track of actions, and then treasures off to the side after I'm done with my action phase. Usually, afterwards I'll rearrange them when counting the total treasure, especially if it's a huge engine; it's easier to place them in groups and be like 'ok, these four grand markets get me one province, these four treasures get me another, and the remainder here is $X which I spend on other stuff'. Whatever green is left in my hand I just hold on to or put down. Then I pick everything up, put it in a deck and start shuffling.

Can't you manipulate the way you scoop to influence the outcome of your deck to the same extent as ordering your deck? 

Yes, manipulating the scoop to influence the outcome of your shuffling is the same thing as reordering your discard to affect your shuffling which is equivalent to lots of other undetectable but unfair tricks to manipulate what happens post-shuffle.

Does any of this change if the intent is to avoid the non-random clumps as opposed to ordering the cards for a better turn? 

If your intent is to avoid some particular card ordering - then that's inherently non-random!

There's nothing 'non-random' about clumps. What IS non-random is deliberately manipulating what cards go where in order to prevent them.

If you have a good shuffle, then clumps will appear as often as they're statistically likely to appear, with no need to pre-arrange the cards. If you have a bad shuffle, then a lack of clumps is just as non-random as a clump.

If you're deliberately changing the order of cards, while looking at them, before you shuffle, the ONLY reason you could possibly be doing this is if your shuffle isn't good enough and you're attempting to influence the deck order. The solution to this is to shuffle more, while not looking at the cards.

[Taco Lobster]

You can't manipulate anything. You MUST shuffle enough so that it doesn't matter what order the cards went into the discard. Do the cool bridge shuffle 7 times. Make the cards into a "Go Fish" fishy pond. Offer your neighbor a cut. Why is this so confusing?

I have no idea why it's so confusing.  I've been saying that for 2 pages and people are still saying that it's cheating or somehow depends on the intent when you discard/order the discard pile.  I keep saying it doesn't matter as long as you shuffle enough to sufficiently randomize the deck and, if you're still worried, let the opponent demand further shuffling and/or a cut.

[Ozle]

Think its time for everyone to disagree and go seperate ways on this one. Its been three pages and no closer to a concensus, so no reason anyone to get even more worked up over it

[Taco Lobster]

If your intent is to avoid some particular card ordering - then that's inherently non-random!

There's nothing 'non-random' about clumps. What IS non-random is deliberately manipulating what cards go where in order to prevent them.

How is there nothing non-random about the clumps that happen from playing the game?  Every dominion player I've ever seen will have their actions in a pile/tree after playing them, their treasures in another pile/on-top, and their victory cards in hand.  Three clumps of non-random cards.  Now you need to discard them and I ask, how?  How do I discard them with the intent to have my discard be random?  We've apparently established/assumed that shuffling does not introduce enough randomness, and if I choose the order I put the cards in the discard pile, that's not random.  How do I get random order in my discard pile?

[yuma]

Well I certainly didn't intend to make another ethics debate page similar to the point counter controversy of 2011, but thanks for all the feedback.

I think what I am taking from everyone's feedback is this:

It doesn't really matter in what order you put cards into your discard IF you efficiently shuffle your deck. It also doesn't matter how you shuffle as long as it is done well. However, arranging cards in your discard is of bad taste--and according to some is illegal--and has an aura of cheating because it implies that you don't plan on effectively shuffling your deck. 


I think I will show some of these points to my friends and establish some houserules for in regard to shuffling.

Again, thanks for the feedback and sorry for any conflict because of the discussion.

[ftl]

How do I discard them with the intent to have my discard be random? 

You can't. You're looking at them; the human brain is very terrible at producing randomness. There is no such thing as 'arranging the cards to be random' - it's a contradiction in terms. If you rearrange them deliberately, you're changing from something that looks obviously non-random (and, in fact, is obviously non-random) to something that looks random (but isn't, it's as non-random as it was before).

To make them random, you flip them over so you can't see them, and you shuffle.

We've apparently established/assumed that shuffling does not introduce enough randomness, and if I choose the order I put the cards in the discard pile, that's not random.  How do I get random order in my discard pile?

Shuffle more.

It's okay if they start out extremely non-random. If you have enough shuffles, and shuffle well enough, you'll randomize them.

The big trap is if you rearrange them so that they LOOK random to the naked eye... and then you shuffle them badly, and then you can't tell that you've shuffled them badly because it 'looks' random, without clumps.

THAT'S what people often do by 'separating' things in their discard pile. They get away with bad shuffles, and then don't notice their bad shuffles because they're rearranging cards to fit a misguided notion of randomnesss.

It's better to just put the cards down, and then shuffle. It's okay if they start out obviously looking not random! That's good! That means that if you shuffle badly, it'll be easy for you to see and shuffle better next time!

It doesn't really matter in what order you put cards into your discard IF you efficiently shuffle your deck. It also doesn't matter how you shuffle as long as it is done well. However, arranging cards in your discard is of bad taste--and according to some is illegal--and has an aura of cheating because it implies that you don't plan on effectively shuffling your deck. 

That is a summary I entirely agree with, 100%.

[Taco Lobster]

THAT'S what people often do by 'separating' things in their discard pile. They get away with bad shuffles, and then don't notice their bad shuffles because they're rearranging cards to fit a misguided notion of randomnesss.

It's better to just put the cards down, and then shuffle. It's okay if they start out obviously looking not random! That's good! That means that if you shuffle badly, it'll be easy for you to see and shuffle better next time!

Okay, fair enough - I can see what you mean about the ordered discard pile creating the appearance of impropriety, particularly if it is part of a two-step combo where the second step is bad shuffling.  I would find that behavior to be douchey.  But, again, the solution as we both keep saying is to require additional shuffling/randominization.  We don't need to call anyone a cheater, or attempt to determine their intent when they discard/shuffle - those are irrelevant pieces of information.  The only relevant question is whether the deck is sufficiently randomized, irrespective of their intent regarding its randomization.  Intent has nothing to do with whether the deck is random if an appropriate process for randomization is followed (e.g., multiple shuffles using varying techniques).  Pre-ordering the cards in advance of a shuffle is nothing more than blowing on the dice.