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Awaclus

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Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« on: February 22, 2018, 05:58:47 pm »
+22

Recently, I solved all the puzzle challenges in Prismata, partially with some help from better Prismata players, and I improved a lot as a result. So I thought that I should make a Dominion challenge in that style, and give you the sort of advice that will help you beat the challenge while also getting better at Dominion.

The challenge:

Get over 50 VP and end the game on turn 11 (or earlier) in a solo game on Dominion Online, using this kingdom:




Code: [Select]
Bureaucrat, Poacher, Bridge Troll, Counting House, Harvest, Transmute, Chapel, Courtyard, Masquerade, Village


Rules:
 - Unlike on the Puzzles forum, here you don't get to have perfect shuffle luck — you actually have to do it. However, you are definitely allowed to resign and try again in hopes of better shuffles.
 - You are allowed to abuse the undo feature as much as you want, even for things like going back several turns and changing your buys to prevent a terminal collision.
 - Hard mode: buy Chapel before the first reshuffle

I recommend trying to solve the challenge without any help first. If you get stuck or frustrated though, down below are some tips that should help. The first tips are just some general things; the further down you read, the more specific they will get. Text in spoilers contains advice for the hard mode; I mention the hard mode in there a couple more times but those don't really help with solving it. "The conclusion" contains references to the advice so you don't want to read that either.









The advice:

  • First of all, you do need good shuffles to beat the challenge, but not unreasonably good. You can probably safely resign any game in which your important opening buys miss the second reshuffle or collide t3/t4, but if it takes you more than 5 attempts that you didn't resign on t4, there's a good chance you could be doing something better
  • Hard mode requires better shuffles, but also better playing.
  • In general, this challenge is all about maximizing your speed. Maximizing your consistency can help, but that isn't a requirement, and it can be neglected if necessary.
  • Try to think as many turns ahead as you can. If I buy this card now, will I be able to buy this other card before the next reshuffle? What will my deck be able to purchase if I draw the entire deck next turn? How much draw and Villages do I need to draw the deck next turn, and how many do I already have? Etcetera. You can use Undo to go back to a previous turn and make a different decision if you overlook something.
  • Try not to waste anything. Ideally, you will usually spend all of your coins and buys every turn, and every time you play an Action with +cards, it actually draws cards. Sometimes you have to make a compromise between wasting one thing and wasting another thing, and sometimes the best build order requires you to waste something, but avoid it whenever possible.
  • Don't overtrash. Make sure you know how many Coppers are in your deck, how many Bridge Trolls are in your deck, and always take a moment to consider the benefits of trashing a Copper (removing a stop card) vs. the benefits of not trashing it (having $1 more in your deck and for your current turn) before you trash it. If you're going for the hard mode, this will involve particularly difficult decisions at the stage where you still want to get rid of more Coppers while you also want to do things with your current turn.
  • To be more specific, you want to trash the Copper if you can't draw your deck otherwise, and you want to keep it if it allows you to go for a more convenient build order. For example, there's no point in keeping $7 of Coppers when you have 1 Bridge Troll, because you only need 6 Coppers to buy another Bridge Troll and a Village or Masquerade.
  • You should prioritize getting rid of your Estates early on.
  • To be specific, you should open Masquerade as long as you're not going for the hard mode. The opening that I had the most success with was double Masquerade, since it puts you into a really good position as long as you have good enough draws on turn 3/4 and you can reasonably quickly just resign games until you get those draws, although I also managed to beat the challenge once with the two Masqs colliding on t3.
  • You probably shouldn't buy any Silvers or Poachers (doesn't apply to hard mode). EDIT: markusin beat normal mode while buying Poacher so that can work too
  • Here's a full solution: 11926128 (you have to make a table, set minimum players to 1 and then check the load old game option to load a 1-player game)

The conclusion:

This challenge highlights a few things that are actually useful for real Dominion matches. Most directly, sometimes you're playing against a faster strategy and you have to maximize the efficiency of your build order even if it means taking some risks, which is exactly what you're doing here. But also, the basic concepts of tracking your deck, tracking your shuffles, thinking a few turns ahead and really having an idea what your deck will be concretely able to do after a few turns of building are very much present in every real game of Dominion and this challenge requires you to do those things. The main concept that I really wanted to highlight more than anything else is overtrashing or trashing too much too early, which results in having a really nice thin deck that doesn't really do anything useful, and that's exactly why you want to avoid it; you can build your deck much faster if you trash little by little while you're already building, even without taking the sort of risks involved in this challenge.

It also highlights a few things that aren't useful for real Dominion matches. In real games, you shouldn't go for a greedy opening and just hope that it works out, and you also shouldn't trash down to a very consistent deck with very few junk cards when Masquerade is around. You also can't plan your build orders this elaborately if there's an Attack present that your opponent might or might not play (but you can if you're reasonably sure they will play it).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 02:48:24 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 07:49:34 pm »
+2

Hey, this is a really cool idea! Real game puzzles in Dominion are a bit weird compared to Prismata because Prismata is a game of perfect information with no randomness beyond the setup, but playing around with the buy orders after using undos allowed me to solve both normal mode and hard mode within hour without hints.

My overall strategy:Well, I know how bonkers Bridge Troll is. If you have the opportunity to get four or more Bridge Trolls into play with ease, you just buy the extra Bridge Trolls you need to pile Provinces with minimal additional Villages. So I tried to make that happen. The challenge is balancing the trashing needed to get a bunch of Bridge Trolls into play at once, and actually finding a way to purchase the Bridge Trolls and support cards needed to get it all to come together in time.

What I learned:Well, it was interesting how in normal mode I could get away with trashing with Masquerade at every Masquerade play, but in hard mode I had to hold back on trashing all my Coppers with Chapel as early as Turn 5.

You can copy paste these into a text editor or something for convenient viewing, or just check the quote of this post.

Normal Mode: #11933577
Game #11933577, unrated.
m starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - markusin
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Masquerade.
m draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 2 - markusin
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Masquerade.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Masquerade.

Turn 3 - markusin
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws 2 Coppers.
m trashes an Estate.
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Poacher.
m draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Masquerade.

Turn 4 - markusin
m plays a Masquerade.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers.
m trashes an Estate.
m plays 5 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Bridge Troll.
m draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Poacher and a Masquerade.

Turn 5 - markusin
m plays a Poacher.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Copper and a Bridge Troll.
m trashes an Estate.
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Village.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 4 Coppers and a Masquerade.

Turn 6 - markusin
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Copper and a Village.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Village.
m draws 2 Coppers, a Poacher, a Masquerade and a Bridge Troll.

Turn 7 - markusin
m plays a Poacher.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Bridge Troll.
m draws 2 Coppers, 2 Villages and a Masquerade.

Turn 8 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Poacher and a Masquerade.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Copper and a Bridge Troll.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains 2 Villages and a Bridge Troll.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 3 Coppers, a Village and a Bridge Troll.

Turn 9 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Village.
m draws a Poacher.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Masquerade.
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Village and a Bridge Troll.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains 2 Villages and 2 Bridge Trolls.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Copper, 2 Villages, a Masquerade and a Bridge Troll.

Turn 10 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Village and a Masquerade.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Masquerade.
m draws a Poacher and a Village.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Village.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Copper.
m buys and gains 2 Villages, a Courtyard and 3 Bridge Trolls.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Poacher, a Village, a Courtyard and 2 Bridge Trolls.

Turn 11 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Courtyard.
m draws 3 Villages.
m topdecks a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Copper.
m buys and gains a Duchy and 8 Provinces.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Province, a Village, 2 Masquerades and a Bridge Troll.


Hard Mode: #11933865
Game #11933865, unrated.
m starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - markusin
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Chapel.
m draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 2 - markusin
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Poacher.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Poacher.

Turn 3 - markusin
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Copper.
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Poacher.
m draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Chapel.

Turn 4 - markusin
m plays a Chapel.
m trashes 3 Coppers and an Estate.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers, an Estate and 2 Poachers.

Turn 5 - markusin
m plays a Poacher.
m draws an Estate.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Chapel.
m plays a Chapel.
m trashes a Copper and 2 Estates.
m plays a Copper.
m buys and gains a Village.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers, 2 Poachers and a Village.

Turn 6 - markusin
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Chapel.
m plays a Village.
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Bridge Troll.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Copper, a Chapel, a Poacher, a Village and a Bridge Troll.

Turn 7 - markusin
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Bridge Troll.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers, 2 Poachers and a Bridge Troll.

Turn 8 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Chapel.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Chapel.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Village, a Courtyard and a Bridge Troll.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Copper, a Chapel, 2 Poachers and a Courtyard.

Turn 9 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Courtyard.
m draws a Village and a Bridge Troll.
m topdecks a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains 2 Villages and 2 Bridge Trolls.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 2 Coppers, a Village and 2 Bridge Trolls.

Turn 10 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Village.
m draws a Poacher.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Courtyard.
m plays a Courtyard.
m draws a Poacher and 2 Villages.
m topdecks a Copper.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Copper.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Chapel.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Chapel.
m trashes 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains 2 Villages, a Courtyard and 3 Bridge Trolls.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Poacher, 2 Villages, a Courtyard and a Bridge Troll.

Turn 11 - markusin
m starts their turn.
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m gets +1 Buy (Bridge Troll).
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a Chapel.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Village.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Courtyard.
m draws a Village and 2 Bridge Trolls.
m topdecks a Chapel.
m plays a Village.
m draws a Chapel.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m plays a Bridge Troll.
m buys and gains a Duchy and 8 Provinces.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a Province, a Poacher, 2 Villages and a Courtyard.


Edit: Figured out how to load old solitaire games. It doesn't work if you don't use the "Create Table" option and then edit the table to load old game in advanced options. Going directly to "Load Old Game" won't remember your min players = 1 setting.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:58:51 pm by markusin »
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Awaclus

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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 08:18:41 pm »
+1

Nicely done. Your approaches to both modes were very slightly different from mine, mostly I find it interesting that you had time for Poacher in normal mode, but apparently that can work too.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 08:26:30 pm »
0

Nicely done. Your approaches to both modes were very slightly different from mine, mostly I find it interesting that you had time for Poacher in normal mode, but apparently that can work too.

In normal mode, I don't know if the Poacher is optimal, but I suppose it matters that it is not a stop card and maybe gives you an opportunity to trash an extra Copper. I did have very good Masquerade luck in normal mode though.

I'll confirm that hard mode is indeed hard mode. In normal mode, you can follow your intuition to a reasonable outcome that you can tweak slightly to optimize. Having to open Chapel in hard mode makes things much more bizarre and it's easier to get caught in a dead end.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 08:50:31 pm »
0

Nicely done. Your approaches to both modes were very slightly different from mine, mostly I find it interesting that you had time for Poacher in normal mode, but apparently that can work too.

In normal mode, I don't know if the Poacher is optimal, but I suppose it matters that it is not a stop card and maybe gives you an opportunity to trash an extra Copper. I did have very good Masquerade luck in normal mode though.

Well, I don't know if it's optimal either, I got a Village instead. It's clearly true that Poacher allows you to trash more Coppers though because I was not getting away with trashing with every Masquerade play. OTOH, Village means you won't have to buy that Village later on, and it can help prevent early terminal collision, but I guess you could just get Poacher anyway and undo to change it to Village if you get the terminal collision with Poacher in hand.

The most bizarre thing about the hard mode is that I actually think we should be playing real games like that, too.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 09:22:59 pm »
0

Nicely done. Your approaches to both modes were very slightly different from mine, mostly I find it interesting that you had time for Poacher in normal mode, but apparently that can work too.

In normal mode, I don't know if the Poacher is optimal, but I suppose it matters that it is not a stop card and maybe gives you an opportunity to trash an extra Copper. I did have very good Masquerade luck in normal mode though.

Well, I don't know if it's optimal either, I got a Village instead. It's clearly true that Poacher allows you to trash more Coppers though because I was not getting away with trashing with every Masquerade play. OTOH, Village means you won't have to buy that Village later on, and it can help prevent early terminal collision, but I guess you could just get Poacher anyway and undo to change it to Village if you get the terminal collision with Poacher in hand.

The most bizarre thing about the hard mode is that I actually think we should be playing real games like that, too.

I'm not sure if your comment about hard mode was about this particular board or about Chapel games in general (I think I agree with the latter). On this board, once you get the hang of the hard mode strategy, hard mode might be easier to control. Of course hoping Chapel doesn't miss the reshuffle, and opening Poacher with Chapel reduces those odds in a real game. However, as you mentioned Masquerade throws a big wrench against the Chapel approach, at least on the last turn. It's tough because with Bridge Troll not giving coins, it's pileout Provinces or bust, and a single opposing Masquerade doesn't have to do much to cripple the pileout.

Also, notice my Turn 5 in normal mode, where I buy Village for $5. I think normal mode might simply have more leeway in build order in general, but it did seem like village was the best option at that moment. You know, it looks like Village costing $3 instead of $4 matters a big deal sometimes.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 09:29:50 pm »
0

Nicely done. Your approaches to both modes were very slightly different from mine, mostly I find it interesting that you had time for Poacher in normal mode, but apparently that can work too.

In normal mode, I don't know if the Poacher is optimal, but I suppose it matters that it is not a stop card and maybe gives you an opportunity to trash an extra Copper. I did have very good Masquerade luck in normal mode though.

Well, I don't know if it's optimal either, I got a Village instead. It's clearly true that Poacher allows you to trash more Coppers though because I was not getting away with trashing with every Masquerade play. OTOH, Village means you won't have to buy that Village later on, and it can help prevent early terminal collision, but I guess you could just get Poacher anyway and undo to change it to Village if you get the terminal collision with Poacher in hand.

The most bizarre thing about the hard mode is that I actually think we should be playing real games like that, too.

I'm not sure if your comment about hard mode was about this particular board or about Chapel games in general (I think I agree with the latter). On this board, once you get the hang of the hard mode strategy, hard mode might be easier to control. Of course hoping Chapel doesn't miss the reshuffle, and opening Poacher with Chapel reduces those odds in a real game. However, as you mentioned Masquerade throws a big wrench against the Chapel approach, at least on the last turn. It's tough because with Bridge Troll not giving coins, it's pileout Provinces or bust, and a single opposing Masquerade doesn't have to do much to cripple the pileout.

Also, notice my Turn 5 in normal mode, where I buy Village for $5. I think normal mode might simply have more leeway in build order in general, but it did seem like village was the best option at that moment. You know, it looks like Village costing $3 instead of $4 matters a big deal sometimes.


Yeah, I was talking about Chapel games in general.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 10:32:17 pm »
+3

Without reading the hints and just sort of half-assing it while sleep deprived, my best on Silver / Masq was Turn 12: #11938263

Going Masq / Masq and really forcing it was T11: #11938578

I feel like this sort of thing might encourage low-percentage riskier play over higher percentage but more conservative play, but hey it's fun.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:34:05 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 06:51:24 am »
0

I feel like this sort of thing might encourage low-percentage riskier play over higher percentage but more conservative play, but hey it's fun.

I address that in the conclusion section of the article. It would be cool if the challenge could be easier so that you could actually beat it without taking unrealistic risks, but then you could also beat it without making the sort of correct decisions that it now forces you to make.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 08:30:49 am »
0

I feel like this sort of thing might encourage low-percentage riskier play over higher percentage but more conservative play, but hey it's fun.

I address that in the conclusion section of the article. It would be cool if the challenge could be easier so that you could actually beat it without taking unrealistic risks, but then you could also beat it without making the sort of correct decisions that it now forces you to make.

In a way it would almost be better as “play the board five times with the same buy rules each time, average a province pileout in 12 turns” or something. I would say it’s good for a simulator, but it would be prohibitively complex to program a bot for each turn to turn decision.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 09:22:11 am »
0

I feel like this sort of thing might encourage low-percentage riskier play over higher percentage but more conservative play, but hey it's fun.

I address that in the conclusion section of the article. It would be cool if the challenge could be easier so that you could actually beat it without taking unrealistic risks, but then you could also beat it without making the sort of correct decisions that it now forces you to make.

In a way it would almost be better as “play the board five times with the same buy rules each time, average a province pileout in 12 turns” or something. I would say it’s good for a simulator, but it would be prohibitively complex to program a bot for each turn to turn decision.

No, that would be worse. Doing it in 12 turns is actually super easy, you can do it without learning anything.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 10:28:15 am »
+3

Super hard mode: Open Counting House

For the normal modes, I like opening Chapel/Village into Masq. Chapel/Poacher, Masq/Masq, and Masq/Poacher are also playable.

The turn counter can be deceptive, particularly for different random seeds. With perfect shuffle luck, a megaturn is theoretically possible on turn 8, with turn 10-11 being more realistic. The average time to Province-out in my test games was between 12 and 13 turns. Imperfect shuffle luck adds a few turns to the average case, as one might expect.

For this type of challenge, it's really helpful to have a standardized random seed so that results can be compared with consistent shuffle luck.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 06:18:40 pm by dedicateddan »
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 01:05:52 pm »
+1

For anyone trying this, you can copy the following into the card selection text field of the kingdom picker to select all the cards
Code: [Select]
Bureaucrat, Poacher, Bridge Troll, Counting House, Harvest, Transmute, Chapel, Courtyard, Masquerade, VillageMaybe add that to the OP?
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 01:19:49 pm »
+1

I feel like this sort of thing might encourage low-percentage riskier play over higher percentage but more conservative play, but hey it's fun.

I address that in the conclusion section of the article. It would be cool if the challenge could be easier so that you could actually beat it without taking unrealistic risks, but then you could also beat it without making the sort of correct decisions that it now forces you to make.

In a way it would almost be better as “play the board five times with the same buy rules each time, average a province pileout in 12 turns” or something. I would say it’s good for a simulator, but it would be prohibitively complex to program a bot for each turn to turn decision.

No, that would be worse. Doing it in 12 turns is actually super easy, you can do it without learning anything.

If you can super easily do it in 12 turns consistently (5 times) but 11 turns takes some undoing and shuffle luck, wouldn’t the 12 turn strategy be better real life play? (Granted, none of this is real, it’s a solitaire game)
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 01:22:09 pm »
+1

Did hardmode in game #11954843

I thik i undid to the beginning 2 or 3 times before getting turn 11
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 02:47:41 pm »
0

I feel like this sort of thing might encourage low-percentage riskier play over higher percentage but more conservative play, but hey it's fun.

I address that in the conclusion section of the article. It would be cool if the challenge could be easier so that you could actually beat it without taking unrealistic risks, but then you could also beat it without making the sort of correct decisions that it now forces you to make.

In a way it would almost be better as “play the board five times with the same buy rules each time, average a province pileout in 12 turns” or something. I would say it’s good for a simulator, but it would be prohibitively complex to program a bot for each turn to turn decision.

No, that would be worse. Doing it in 12 turns is actually super easy, you can do it without learning anything.

If you can super easily do it in 12 turns consistently (5 times) but 11 turns takes some undoing and shuffle luck, wouldn’t the 12 turn strategy be better real life play? (Granted, none of this is real, it’s a solitaire game)

The point of this challenge is not to teach you the entirety of how to play Dominion well, the point is to teach you one particular aspect of it. Doing it in 11 turns requires you to learn that, doing it in 12 doesn't.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 02:48:32 pm »
+1

For anyone trying this, you can copy the following into the card selection text field of the kingdom picker to select all the cards
Code: [Select]
Bureaucrat, Poacher, Bridge Troll, Counting House, Harvest, Transmute, Chapel, Courtyard, Masquerade, VillageMaybe add that to the OP?

Done.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2018, 03:44:02 pm »
+3

This was a very cool and illuminating exercise!
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2018, 04:46:28 pm »
+1

Uh did hard mode first try with one undo
11960819
Now will try to get it in 10 turns
I really dont like masq until 2nd or third shuffle
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 05:09:41 pm by Limetime »
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2018, 12:20:47 pm »
+1

Easy mode: #11950792
Hard mode: #11984420 (required some generous shuffle luck to not dud on T11)

A very interesting exercise!
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2018, 05:24:16 pm »
+1

Got it on turn 10 -- but only after many failings where I didn't follow OP's advice

11992907
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2018, 10:49:42 am »
0

Back in the Iso days we had all sorts of single-player challenges. I guess they went away because Goko didn't support single player?
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2018, 10:55:25 am »
0

Back in the Iso days we had all sorts of single-player challenges. I guess they went away because Goko didn't support single player?

Goko supported single player, you just had to do it in the Secret Chamber lobby. This (and Dan's challenge) are different from the Iso-era solo challenges though, because here we have a certain goal that everyone is supposed to reach, whereas the solo challenges were more of a competition.
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Re: Tempo Challenge (Puzzle/article hybrid)
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2020, 03:37:30 am »
+1

Haha! Just found this old post, it was fun. I totally surprised myself by getting it on the first try. Guess I'm not that bad at this. Or I got good shuffle luck. Opened Masq/Poacher, figuring that I wanted a bit of economy to hit $5 for my first bridge troll soon, and didn't want to add another stop card.

Definitely got good shuffle luck though, for most of the game I kept exactly one fewer village than I had terminals, and never had dead draw/terminal collision.
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