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Author Topic: very short strategy article  (Read 4428 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2018, 07:40:32 pm »
0

Bravo Chuckles.

Quote
Strictly better means it has the same base functionality, but at least 1 thing is better, and 0 things are worse
Quote
By that definition, Oasis is strictly better than Peddler because it has the same base functionality, but it also has an extra functionality that you don't always want.
You seem to have read "at least 1 thing better, and 0 things are worse" as "at least 1 thing is better in an edgecase"?

These three phrases are true:
* Peddler is better because discarding cards is generally undesirable
* Peddler is better because it will often be cheaper
* Peddler is worse because it will often be more expensive.

A strictly better comparison is inappropriate because it isn't a situation where 100% of the positive differences are stacked on one card.

Not just my definition, but this one too:
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Strictly_better

If all cards in the game were free, it would be fair to say "peddler is strictly better than oasis", but the inverse is wrong.   

---

This has been discussed at great length before; and we've generally decided that cost should not be factored in, because if it were, then nothing is ever strictly better than anything else in Dominion...

Really?

You guys?

Forum.dominionstrategy.com, come together, and a strong majority decided to redefine a gaming term to fit dominion better...and there wasn't a substantial, loud and prominent dissenting block of respected members of the community? 

I mean, if so: *mind blown*

However, if you actually look at the citation for that definition on the gamepedia wiki, MaRo doesn't say that definition, he says "'Strictly better' means that one card is in all occurrences (within reason) better than another". In the context of Dominion, this means that Bazaar is still strictly better than Village even though your opponent might play Possession, but it doesn't mean that gaining a Gold is strictly better than nothing because you only want that Gold if you're planning to have it in your deck, which is far from being always the case.

And yeah. We guys. Between having a term that means something and a term that doesn't, we wanted the former.
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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2018, 07:54:11 pm »
+2

Threads like these are why I stay on Discord.
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Robz888

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 12:39:02 am »
+4

I like that Skulk comes with a Gold. Having a Gold in your deck makes up for the lack of +coin provided by Skulk.

Where have you been, man? Golds are basically curses, with occasional utility as tfb fuel.

What can I say, I’m old school. I was not buying Scouts before you were born, son.
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Donald X.

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 07:08:20 am »
+6

It makes no sense to redefine the Magic term; it just leaves you communicating poorly with Magic players, all so that you can say something dull about Ruined Market or whatever. You get zilch out of it other than communicating poorly; zilch I say.

"Strictly better" is when one card is always better than another, ignoring stuff like "what if I take control of your thing, now you want the worse thing." In Magic, strictly better/worse cards appear in most sets. In Dominion, I don't make them. Magic initially had some, for a while tried to avoid them, then gave up as it was impossible and hurting the sets. Dominion has a tiny fraction of the cards and isn't trying to sell people stuff they already have.

If you want to talk about how one Dominion card is better than another, say "better" and you will do a better job of communicating.

Now Dominion does have printed cards that are strictly better than others, just going by the printed wording; for example 2E Throne Room is strictly better than 1E. However the idea is that you play the 1E version as the 2E version, leaving them the same.
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dominator 123

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2018, 07:56:18 am »
+2

It makes no sense to redefine the Magic term; it just leaves you communicating poorly with Magic players, all so that you can say something dull about Ruined Market or whatever. You get zilch out of it other than communicating poorly; zilch I say.

"Strictly better" is when one card is always better than another, ignoring stuff like "what if I take control of your thing, now you want the worse thing." In Magic, strictly better/worse cards appear in most sets. In Dominion, I don't make them. Magic initially had some, for a while tried to avoid them, then gave up as it was impossible and hurting the sets. Dominion has a tiny fraction of the cards and isn't trying to sell people stuff they already have.

If you want to talk about how one Dominion card is better than another, say "better" and you will do a better job of communicating.

Now Dominion does have printed cards that are strictly better than others, just going by the printed wording; for example 2E Throne Room is strictly better than 1E. However the idea is that you play the 1E version as the 2E version, leaving them the same.
Well I disagree, because defining "strictly better" to include cost in a Dominion context is completely meaningless because then no card is strictly better than another other than E1/E2 variants.

Simply "better" can't communicate the meaning across. For example most players would say e.g Mountebank is better than Beggar, but of course isn't strictly better because Beggar's abilities are different from Mountebank's.
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weesh

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2018, 10:41:28 am »
+1

Well I disagree, because defining "strictly better" to include cost in a Dominion context is completely meaningless because then no card is strictly better than another
we aren't defining "strictly better" to include cost.  that ship has long sailed.  if you want "strictly better" to not include cost, that only happens with redefining it.

there are plenty of good synonyms of "strictly" that would get a similar point across without as much confusion.

Maybe:
"Naturally better" assuming that in your deck is the natural state
"Characteristically better" which doesn't imply everything
"Rigorously better" which implies almost the same harshness without the absolutism
"Specifically better" which could easily apply to just 1-2 major items, ignoring cost
"Decisively better" perhaps you think the best comparison is when it's in your deck, and that's what's important
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Donald X.

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2018, 04:23:08 pm »
+7

Well I disagree, because defining "strictly better" to include cost in a Dominion context is completely meaningless because then no card is strictly better than another other than E1/E2 variants.
No-one's requiring you to use "strictly better" in a Dominion context. Why would you want to? Similarly you don't need to redefine "checkmate" so that you can use that when talking about Dominion.
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GendoIkari

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2018, 10:32:35 pm »
+3

Well I disagree, because defining "strictly better" to include cost in a Dominion context is completely meaningless because then no card is strictly better than another other than E1/E2 variants.
No-one's requiring you to use "strictly better" in a Dominion context. Why would you want to? Similarly you don't need to redefine "checkmate" so that you can use that when talking about Dominion.

The only reason is because it makes for interesting discussions, puzzles, and thought experiments among the type of people who like to spend their time on a forum dedicated to Dominion strategy. Yes, we could have avoided the term "strictly better" whenever it was first brought up, but that would have just meant coming up with some other term... And it's really not redefining the term; it's just clarifying the scope. The discussions are about which card effects are strictly better than others. So thus, we can say that Worker's Village has a strictly better card effect than Village.

We have a thread somewhere that lists all strictly better cards. It led to a lot of interesting discussion; especially given that it requires figuring out certain Dominion puzzles in order to see why an effect is not strictly better than another. For example, when Seaside was first released, Bazaar's effect was strictly better than Village's effect. But after Adventures came along, that stopped being true, because now there's a cool edge case where you play your Village, then Storyteller, but really only want to draw exactly 1 card, either to avoid a reshuffle or because the next card down would be much better for your next turn instead of now.

That's why we use the phrase.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2018, 12:32:38 am »
0

The Hexes are more hurtful than the Boons are beneficial, though. Or at least it seems that way to me.
Yes, but the Hex-dealers suck (apart from Vampire), and the Boon-givers are all kinda good.
Whoa, Werewolf sucks? Since when?

Skulk sucks too????????????
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Donald X.

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2018, 01:58:34 am »
+3

The only reason is because it makes for interesting discussions, puzzles, and thought experiments among the type of people who like to spend their time on a forum dedicated to Dominion strategy. Yes, we could have avoided the term "strictly better" whenever it was first brought up, but that would have just meant coming up with some other term... And it's really not redefining the term; it's just clarifying the scope. The discussions are about which card effects are strictly better than others. So thus, we can say that Worker's Village has a strictly better card effect than Village.
It's a lot of work to come up with another term? Rather than co-opt a term but have it mean something different? I am not seeing it.
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blueblimp

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2018, 04:24:50 am »
+4

It's OK for jargon to have different precise meaning in different fields, according to what concepts are useful to encode in each field. A mathematician can use "class" to mean a "collection of sets" while a software developer uses "class" to mean "a template for objects", and that's great, they both get to express a concept using a short word and nobody is confused because it's obvious from context what people are talking about.

I figure hardly anyone is confused by "strictly better" in a Dominion context. If they are, they can go look at the wiki, which explains how the term is typically used:
Quote
A card in Dominion is informally referred to as strictly better than another if, in some sense, having or using the former confers all the same advantages as the latter as well as some added benefit, with no potential additional disadvantages.
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Holunder9

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2018, 01:22:48 pm »
0

I don't get the problem of using the termin "strictly better" for Dominion; probably because I never played Magic.
All the $4 villages are strictly better than village which is why they cannot cost $4.
Nomad Camp is, barring weird edge cases in which you want a Woodcutter not next turn but a few turns later, strictly better than Woodcutter which is why it has to cost $4. Seems simple enough to me.

Most cards are not strictly better though, they are just better in most circumstances. Like Laboratory-Fugitive or Peddler-Oasis.
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Awaclus

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2018, 01:40:04 pm »
+2

Nomad Camp is, barring weird edge cases in which you want a Woodcutter not next turn but a few turns later, strictly better than Woodcutter which is why it has to cost $4. Seems simple enough to me.

Well, that's not really true. 90-93% of the time when I have $4 and I need a card that doesn't do anything aside from giving $2 and +buy, I'd actually rather buy Woodcutter than Nomad Camp because what I want on the top of my deck is not the Woodcutter, it's my engine components, and I want the Woodcutter to be as far down the shuffle as it can be.
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jonts26

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2018, 01:40:19 pm »
+1

I agree with your main point but I wouldn't use the nomad camp example. That topdecking works like a self attack more than you'd expect.

EDIT: what awaclus said.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 01:41:29 pm by jonts26 »
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O

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2018, 02:00:23 pm »
+1

It's a lot of work to come up with another term? Rather than co-opt a term but have it mean something different? I am not seeing it.

Can we release a new edition of Dominion where the words draw, trash, hand, etc.. are restored to their primary dictionary definitions and we replace them with our own terms? Even if you didn't create those secondary uses, somewhere along the line some jerk decided that we can draw cards instead of just paintings (or weapons..) and completely ruined that term by co-opting it. We shouldn't be supporting them.

Also I tried to discard my hand and it REALLY HURT. Do not recommend.
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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2018, 03:17:24 pm »
+7

The f.ds cycle

1. The thread starts.
2. Everyone eventually tries to one up each other by making jokes and earning upvotes.
3. Someone says something potentially hot takeish without any reasons or examples, and an argument starts over that. Word count goes up exponentially.
4. Passions flare as people argue past each other. Some people notice this and start talking about definitions.
5. An argument about definitions to a seemingly indefinable game begins. More passions flare. Some people recognize the futility and make more joke posts, cementing the death of the thread.
6. Some complain about the cycle of redundancy in order to earn internet points instead of correctly ignoring it. (This is me)
7. Either Theory locks the entire shit show, or eventually everyone gives up until the next thread, where the cycle is repeated.
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GendoIkari

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2018, 05:21:50 pm »
+8

The f.ds cycle

1. The thread starts.
2. Everyone eventually tries to one up each other by making jokes and earning upvotes.
3. Someone says something potentially hot takeish without any reasons or examples, and an argument starts over that. Word count goes up exponentially.
4. Passions flare as people argue past each other. Some people notice this and start talking about definitions.
5. An argument about definitions to a seemingly indefinable game begins. More passions flare. Some people recognize the futility and make more joke posts, cementing the death of the thread.
6. Some complain about the cycle of redundancy in order to earn internet points instead of correctly ignoring it. (This is me)
7. Either Theory locks the entire shit show, or eventually everyone gives up until the next thread, where the cycle is repeated.

If we did all those things but also everyone got respect for the posts, then the thread would be strictly better.
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ehunt

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2018, 05:31:52 pm »
+2

but seriously, the boon-givers are all pretty good. None of them earth-shattering, but pretty good.
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Donald X.

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2018, 05:33:37 pm »
+5

It's a lot of work to come up with another term? Rather than co-opt a term but have it mean something different? I am not seeing it.

Can we release a new edition of Dominion where the words draw, trash, hand, etc.. are restored to their primary dictionary definitions and we replace them with our own terms? Even if you didn't create those secondary uses, somewhere along the line some jerk decided that we can draw cards instead of just paintings (or weapons..) and completely ruined that term by co-opting it. We shouldn't be supporting them.

Also I tried to discard my hand and it REALLY HURT. Do not recommend.
I do not find this argument at all convincing. Endless games talk about a hand of cards, would you believe. "Strictly better" is from Magic: The Gathering communities.

When I see someone saying "strictly better" in this awful way, as a Magic player of many years, I think, "what? but they cost different amounts. Oh this is that thing where people want to use that Magic term and be confusing." When I see "hand" I don't think "ha ha it's not a hand duh."
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Awaclus

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2018, 06:09:40 pm »
0

I do not find this argument at all convincing. Endless games talk about a hand of cards, would you believe. "Strictly better" is from Magic: The Gathering communities.

Isn't it from game theory? It also doesn't mean anything close to how it's been used in the Magic communities.
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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2018, 06:11:40 pm »
0

It's a lot of work to come up with another term? Rather than co-opt a term but have it mean something different? I am not seeing it.

Can we release a new edition of Dominion where the words draw, trash, hand, etc.. are restored to their primary dictionary definitions and we replace them with our own terms? Even if you didn't create those secondary uses, somewhere along the line some jerk decided that we can draw cards instead of just paintings (or weapons..) and completely ruined that term by co-opting it. We shouldn't be supporting them.

Also I tried to discard my hand and it REALLY HURT. Do not recommend.
I do not find this argument at all convincing. Endless games talk about a hand of cards, would you believe. "Strictly better" is from Magic: The Gathering communities.

When I see someone saying "strictly better" in this awful way, as a Magic player of many years, I think, "what? but they cost different amounts. Oh this is that thing where people want to use that Magic term and be confusing." When I see "hand" I don't think "ha ha it's not a hand duh."

But you’ve made sure that no card is strictly better than another in Dominion in the Magic sense, so it’s not a useful definition in this forum.

I also don’t think Magic has a monopoly on the use of “strictly better”. You use those terms in other contexts too, with a different meaning.
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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2018, 08:15:30 pm »
+1

It's a lot of work to come up with another term?
Do you have a suggestion?

(I'm out of ideas.)
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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2018, 08:29:36 pm »
0

Words and phrases used for discussion are created out of convenience. Its pretty intuitive what "strictly better" means. Clearly no one in Dominion will use strictly better to include cost. I also find it hard to believe the term came from Magic.

What's wrong with "strictly better" having a different definition in Magic and Dominion? Words are meaningless without context anyway.

I can tell you that if I say "Workers Village is strictly better than Village", nobody is going to argue with me that " but Workers Village costs more".
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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2018, 10:11:46 pm »
+2

I'm pretty confident the term came from Magic. I've played it since 97, and I recall that term coming to use sometime shortly after I started playing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: very short strategy article
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2018, 10:19:29 pm »
+2

It may have originated in Magic, by my friends and I have been using it for all board games for quite a long time. When trying to decide between 2 moves; it's not uncommon do the math and eventually arrive at "oh, this other move gets me all the same resources the first one would, plus 1 extra gold, so it's a strictly better move."
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