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Author Topic: Witch, revised for 2018  (Read 935 times)

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Titandrake

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Witch, revised for 2018
« on: February 10, 2018, 03:47:41 am »
+16

It's still good.

You should still buy it.

If you don't, you should still have a good reason, and I mean a REALLY good reason.

"But there's trashing!" - No, every Curse they trash is a Copper or Estate they didn't get to trash.

"But the trasher competes at the $5 price point!" - You may want to buy the trasher first, but if you do, you should probably still buy the Witch later.

"But Mountebank is in the kingdom!" - Actually, after you play Mountebanks a few times, they block it often enough that you probably want to buy the Witch to hand out the rest of the Curses.

"But Moat is in the kingdom!" - Having a Witch still threatens handing out Curses. They only have to fail to have Moat once to get punished for it. And if they buy a lot of Moats, then you've hurt them in a different way: they spent a bunch of Buys on Moats.

"But Lighthouse is in the kingdom!" - Okay. The Moat principle still applies - they only have to miss it once to get hurt. However, it's a lot more okay to have lots of Lighthouses, and in some games it's even beneficial (i.e. Minion games). So sometimes, they do have enough Lighthouses to make buying Witch redundant. But if you notice they've gotten complacent and are starting to miss Lighthouse turns, maybe you should reconsider that Witch...

"But Ambassador or Masquerade is in the kingdom!" - These do counter Witch the most regularly. It sucks when they give you back a Curse.

"But I'm drawing my deck, and I have a trasher, and I'm out of things I want to trash with it! I'll just trash the Curse if I get Witched!" - Sure, this is true for now. It's easy for this to stop being true, as you add payload or VP to your deck. Much like the Moat argument, if they're playing Witch every turn, you only have to fail to draw your trasher once to fall behind on having a thin deck. Once you fall behind the first time, it's more likely you fall behind the next, and soon your thin deck has 3 Curses in it. It's a classic recipe for beating people who are overconfident in their deck's reliability.

A lot of new players don't like Witch, because it slows down the game. Most people's idea of fun is getting to play a bunch of cards and produce a bunch of money. Witch gets in the way of that. But I like Witch. When I give out Curses, I think to myself "yes". When I get Curses, I think to myself "no". Even if you don't like it, you have to respect it.

Sometimes, you can skip Witch, and you get to be a Hero. Maybe even a Champion. Just be careful out there. Curses make the world a scary place.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 02:07:31 am by Titandrake »
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Holunder9

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 07:06:29 am »
0

It's still good.

You should still buy it.

If you don't, you should still have a good reason, and I mean a REALLY good reason.
I think that's true for junking and trashing in general.
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markusin

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 08:46:37 am »
+1


"But I'm drawing my deck, and I have a trasher, and I'm out of things I want to trash with it! I'll just trash the Curse if I get Witched!" - Sure, this is true for now. It's easy for this to stop being true, as you add payload or VP to your deck. Much like the Moat argument, if they're playing Witch every turn, you only have to fail to draw your trasher once to fall behind, and once you fall behind the first time, it's more likely you fall behind the next. It's a classic recipe for beating people who are overconfident in their deck's reliability.

This is an important consideration. The presence of trashing can mean there is an engine available that makes one able to easily play Witch (or a similar curser like Sea Hag) every turn if gained after the engine is set up. If the opponent is then not trashing junk as fast as it is being received, they will start to fall behind.

There are some cases where a trasher is great when you lots of junk to trash, but gets harder to connect with junk in the midgame when you have lots of good cards in the deck. Sentry, Doctor, and Count are excellent deck thinners early on, but they struggle to get rid of straggling junk thrown in later in the game. Every Steward that trashes Curse is one that is not used for draw or coin, and might find it awkward to trash exactly two cards.

I think people are also skipping Familiar more than they should these days. You might say, "Oh, but there is trashing, and the Potion is a junk card." I do acknowledge that sometimes going for the elite trasher is a safer play than going Potion and praying that you hit $3P. However, you have to understand that if a player gets their third Familiar you can be getting curses in large bursts. Dealing with this influx means you really want to have amazing draw set up combined  with a multi-card trasher. Otherwise, while you may eventually get your deck in order, you might be very behind compared to the Familiar player who also got a trasher despite the time taken to buy Potion and several Familiars. Additionally, an engine can have a simple time adding several Familiars to their deck over a few turns, and then you have the situation described earlier with midgame Witch.
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crj

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2018, 09:55:12 am »
+1

"But Mountebank is in the kingdom!" - Actually, after you play Mountebanks a few times, they block it often enough that you probably want to buy the Witch to hand out the rest of the Curses.
Just get a second Mountebank. Or (n+1)th. Playing two Mountebanks in one turn is worse for your opponents than one Mountebank and one Witch.

There is the old saying that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. I now propose: nobody ever lost Dominion by playing King's Court on a Mountebank.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 01:55:58 pm »
0


A lot of new players don't like Witch, because it slows down the game. Most people's idea of fun is getting to play a bunch of cards and produce a bunch of money. Witch gets in the way of that. But I like Witch. When I give out Curses, I think to myself "yes". When I get Curses, I think to myself "no". Even if you don't like it, you have to respect it.


This. My family has refused to play with any curser in the kingdom, and dislike Attack cards in general, which is a shame. Then they complain that the games are too short.
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Titandrake

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 03:54:05 pm »
+2

"But Mountebank is in the kingdom!" - Actually, after you play Mountebanks a few times, they block it often enough that you probably want to buy the Witch to hand out the rest of the Curses.
Just get a second Mountebank. Or (n+1)th. Playing two Mountebanks in one turn is worse for your opponents than one Mountebank and one Witch.

There is the old saying that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. I now propose: nobody ever lost Dominion by playing King's Court on a Mountebank.

Sure, but that's assuming your in a game where you can expect to play two Mountebanks a turn. If you only play 1, there's a tipping point where Mountebank gets blocked too often. Witch drawing cards can also make it a bit easier to draw your other Actions, although this does get balanced out by the Coppers you're gaining.

I do think you get Mountebank first, and that your deck is probably going to end with N Mountebanks and 0 or 1 Witch. I don't think it's obvious that it should always be 0.
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Erick648

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 11:51:16 pm »
0

I now propose: nobody ever lost Dominion by playing King's Court on a Mountebank.
Edge case: There are 1-3 Curses left and two empty piles and you're too far behind to catch up this turn.
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humcalc216

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 12:29:44 pm »
0

I now propose: nobody ever lost Dominion by playing King's Court on a Mountebank.
Edge case: There are 1-3 Curses left and two empty piles and you're too far behind to catch up this turn.

Another edge case: Your opponent is playing Trader/Feodum and has Trader in hand.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 02:12:35 pm »
+2

I now propose: nobody ever lost Dominion by playing King's Court on a Mountebank.
Edge case: There are 1-3 Curses left and two empty piles and you're too far behind to catch up this turn.

Another edge case: Your opponent is playing Trader/Feodum and has Trader in hand.

Refuting an empirical claim with theoretical edge cases doesnˋt make sense.
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Re: Witch, revised for 2018
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 02:58:05 pm »
+2


A lot of new players don't like Witch, because it slows down the game. Most people's idea of fun is getting to play a bunch of cards and produce a bunch of money. Witch gets in the way of that. But I like Witch. When I give out Curses, I think to myself "yes". When I get Curses, I think to myself "no". Even if you don't like it, you have to respect it.


This. My family has refused to play with any curser in the kingdom, and dislike Attack cards in general, which is a shame. Then they complain that the games are too short.

I bet they also complain Dominion isn't interactive enough...
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