Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Inheritance and Nomad Camp  (Read 1018 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2846
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3505
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 01:41:49 pm »
0

I also think it was a mistake to let cards you buy be yours before you gain them. It goes against all other cards and interactions that were already introduced, mostly starting in Hinterlands. As Donald has said himself, to clarify the difference between when-buy and when-gain, buying is paying for the card, gaining is when you get it.

If you buy a card while Possessed, or reveal Trader, you get the when-buy but not the when-gain. Technically this is not inconsistent with Inheritance, the card can still be "yours" between the moment you bought it and the moment you "didn't gain it" (whenever that moment is), but it sure seems cleaner and easier to understand if that were not the case, even for average players, assuming those players are supposed to also get how those Possession and Trader interactions work.

We already had the Trader discussion back then, because technically, a not-gained but bought card never leaves your deck, and therefore doesn't satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping to be my card. It still stops being my card.

The rulebook literally says "An Estate stops being yours if you... are stopped from gaining it due to Possession (from Alchemy) or Trader (from Hinterlands)." So it definitely does satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping being your card.

There was something else that the rulebook missed... can't remember what it was. Maybe passing the Estate away with Masquerade?

No, Masquerade's in there too. I agree that there's something the rulebook missed but I also can't remember what it was.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6704
  • Respect: +7480
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 01:44:22 pm »
+1

I also think it was a mistake to let cards you buy be yours before you gain them. It goes against all other cards and interactions that were already introduced, mostly starting in Hinterlands. As Donald has said himself, to clarify the difference between when-buy and when-gain, buying is paying for the card, gaining is when you get it.

If you buy a card while Possessed, or reveal Trader, you get the when-buy but not the when-gain. Technically this is not inconsistent with Inheritance, the card can still be "yours" between the moment you bought it and the moment you "didn't gain it" (whenever that moment is), but it sure seems cleaner and easier to understand if that were not the case, even for average players, assuming those players are supposed to also get how those Possession and Trader interactions work.

We already had the Trader discussion back then, because technically, a not-gained but bought card never leaves your deck, and therefore doesn't satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping to be my card. It still stops being my card.

The rulebook literally says "An Estate stops being yours if you... are stopped from gaining it due to Possession (from Alchemy) or Trader (from Hinterlands)." So it definitely does satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping being your card.

There was something else that the rulebook missed... can't remember what it was. Maybe passing the Estate away with Masquerade?

No, Masquerade's in there too. I agree that there's something the rulebook missed but I also can't remember what it was.

I don't see Exchanging mentioned. You can exchange an Estate if you inherited Page or Peasant, right?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2846
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3505
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 01:58:17 pm »
0

I also think it was a mistake to let cards you buy be yours before you gain them. It goes against all other cards and interactions that were already introduced, mostly starting in Hinterlands. As Donald has said himself, to clarify the difference between when-buy and when-gain, buying is paying for the card, gaining is when you get it.

If you buy a card while Possessed, or reveal Trader, you get the when-buy but not the when-gain. Technically this is not inconsistent with Inheritance, the card can still be "yours" between the moment you bought it and the moment you "didn't gain it" (whenever that moment is), but it sure seems cleaner and easier to understand if that were not the case, even for average players, assuming those players are supposed to also get how those Possession and Trader interactions work.

We already had the Trader discussion back then, because technically, a not-gained but bought card never leaves your deck, and therefore doesn't satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping to be my card. It still stops being my card.

The rulebook literally says "An Estate stops being yours if you... are stopped from gaining it due to Possession (from Alchemy) or Trader (from Hinterlands)." So it definitely does satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping being your card.

There was something else that the rulebook missed... can't remember what it was. Maybe passing the Estate away with Masquerade?

No, Masquerade's in there too. I agree that there's something the rulebook missed but I also can't remember what it was.

I don't see Exchanging mentioned. You can exchange an Estate if you inherited Page or Peasant, right?

Returning to the supply is mentioned, though, and exchanging involves that.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6704
  • Respect: +7480
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 02:02:37 pm »
+1

Possession and trashing? If you trash an Estate while possessed, then it stops being yours. At the end of your turn, it returns to your discard pile, which we all assume means that it becomes yours again, but the rules don't say it.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2846
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3505
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 02:50:31 pm »
0

Possession and trashing? If you trash an Estate while possessed, then it stops being yours. At the end of your turn, it returns to your discard pile, which we all assume means that it becomes yours again, but the rules don't say it.

That must be it.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1086
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +816
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2018, 03:46:04 pm »
0

Yes, Possession getting trashed cards. Also Fortress getting itself from trash.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:17:17 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4758
  • Respect: +19314
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2018, 04:03:22 pm »
+4

I also think it was a mistake to let cards you buy be yours before you gain them. It goes against all other cards and interactions that were already introduced, mostly starting in Hinterlands. As Donald has said himself, to clarify the difference between when-buy and when-gain, buying is paying for the card, gaining is when you get it.

If you buy a card while Possessed, or reveal Trader, you get the when-buy but not the when-gain. Technically this is not inconsistent with Inheritance, the card can still be "yours" between the moment you bought it and the moment you "didn't gain it" (whenever that moment is), but it sure seems cleaner and easier to understand if that were not the case, even for average players, assuming those players are supposed to also get how those Possession and Trader interactions work.
However! Here the problem is that when-buy exists at all. It shouldn't. Lots of people do not notice that when-gain and when-buy are different, and do not play those things as written.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6704
  • Respect: +7480
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 08:01:40 pm »
0

I also think it was a mistake to let cards you buy be yours before you gain them. It goes against all other cards and interactions that were already introduced, mostly starting in Hinterlands. As Donald has said himself, to clarify the difference between when-buy and when-gain, buying is paying for the card, gaining is when you get it.

If you buy a card while Possessed, or reveal Trader, you get the when-buy but not the when-gain. Technically this is not inconsistent with Inheritance, the card can still be "yours" between the moment you bought it and the moment you "didn't gain it" (whenever that moment is), but it sure seems cleaner and easier to understand if that were not the case, even for average players, assuming those players are supposed to also get how those Possession and Trader interactions work.
However! Here the problem is that when-buy exists at all. It shouldn't. Lots of people do not notice that when-gain and when-buy are different, and do not play those things as written.

So I assume that when-buy was create due to cards like Talisman that would otherwise have an infinite effect otherwise. Farmland is a bit more subtle; it could work as a when-gain but it could be awkward to get it when it isn't your turn. With a Dominion time machine, do you think these problems could have been solved with "when you gain a card as a result of buying it"?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4758
  • Respect: +19314
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2018, 08:22:28 pm »
+3

So I assume that when-buy was create due to cards like Talisman that would otherwise have an infinite effect otherwise. Farmland is a bit more subtle; it could work as a when-gain but it could be awkward to get it when it isn't your turn. With a Dominion time machine, do you think these problems could have been solved with "when you gain a card as a result of buying it"?
It exists in Prosperity, because at the time it seemed reasonable, it was a thing that was distinct in the game and I didn't think "people won't recognize that this is different from when-gain."

In Hinterlands I wanted everything to be when-gain, but some cards didn't work that way, and making everything when-buy meant giving up lots of fun. No playtesters could get behind giving that fun up. So I gave up and used a mix and well despite Prosperity I still should have gone with all when-gain. And if I'd thought of it in time, all when-gain in Prosperity too.

I would not use your wording, no. There are various fixes, which can be considered on a case-by-case basis by those who have the time. In some cases the effect is just better not to do, but that's okay, don't be fooled.

Farmland was initially when-gain. And Haggler was "other than via a Haggler." In Hinterlands playtesting we would have these "explosions" that were really fun but also seemed awful to let be in the game. You suddenly gain a bunch of cards. I play Haggler and buy Farmland and that comes with a Lab and I trash Border Village into Province and the Province comes with a Farmland which trashes another Border Village into Province which comes with a Border Village which comes with two Labs. Edit: And one of those Labs comes with a Silver! See how tricky it is.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 04:21:36 am by Donald X. »
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4290
  • Respect: +4719
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance and Nomad Camp
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 03:37:41 am »
0

I also think it was a mistake to let cards you buy be yours before you gain them. It goes against all other cards and interactions that were already introduced, mostly starting in Hinterlands. As Donald has said himself, to clarify the difference between when-buy and when-gain, buying is paying for the card, gaining is when you get it.

If you buy a card while Possessed, or reveal Trader, you get the when-buy but not the when-gain. Technically this is not inconsistent with Inheritance, the card can still be "yours" between the moment you bought it and the moment you "didn't gain it" (whenever that moment is), but it sure seems cleaner and easier to understand if that were not the case, even for average players, assuming those players are supposed to also get how those Possession and Trader interactions work.

We already had the Trader discussion back then, because technically, a not-gained but bought card never leaves your deck, and therefore doesn't satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping to be my card. It still stops being my card.

The rulebook literally says "An Estate stops being yours if you... are stopped from gaining it due to Possession (from Alchemy) or Trader (from Hinterlands)." So it definitely does satisfy the rulebook's definition of stopping being your card.

I have failed to sufficiently inform myself and accept the shame implied.
(Insert RSP joke here)
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.143 seconds with 21 queries.