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Author Topic: Favorite Expansions in 2018  (Read 10655 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2018, 06:13:49 am »
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I didn't realize it had become so popular to hate on Prosperity.  I remember when that was everyone's favorite expansion.  I mean sure, it has Trade Route and Counting House and a few dud Treasures.  But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - King's Court, Grand Market, Goons, Mountebank.  Rabble is a solid draw card, Cities can get insane, Worker's Village is a solid village, Watchtower is quite good.  And getting free Peddlers is awesome!  You can make a golden deck with Bishop, and Monument is pretty nice if you can get it rolling early.

A lot of the most fun cards in Prosperity don't have anything Prosperity-specific about them, which makes people sort of forget that they were from Prosperity especially because the set has been around for so long. When Empires came out, it made a lot of the Prosperity-specific things not as Prosperity-specific anymore, as well as dull in comparison. The only thing that really sets Prosperity apart from the other expansions at this point is the Treasures, and a lot of them were duds.

Also Trade Route is a pretty strong and unique card.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 06:16:19 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #101 on: July 17, 2018, 07:53:12 am »
0

I didn't realize it had become so popular to hate on Prosperity.  I remember when that was everyone's favorite expansion.  I mean sure, it has Trade Route and Counting House and a few dud Treasures.  But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - King's Court, Grand Market, Goons, Mountebank.  Rabble is a solid draw card, Cities can get insane, Worker's Village is a solid village, Watchtower is quite good.  And getting free Peddlers is awesome!  You can make a golden deck with Bishop, and Monument is pretty nice if you can get it rolling early.

A lot of the most fun cards in Prosperity don't have anything Prosperity-specific about them, which makes people sort of forget that they were from Prosperity especially because the set has been around for so long. When Empires came out, it made a lot of the Prosperity-specific things not as Prosperity-specific anymore, as well as dull in comparison. The only thing that really sets Prosperity apart from the other expansions at this point is the Treasures, and a lot of them were duds.

Also Trade Route is a pretty strong and unique card.

Even Colony/Platinum is not exclusive to Prosperity now that Base Cards can be bought separately.

Prosperity has a lot of stand out power cards and duds, but I guess it also has some unsung heroes like Worker's Village, Watchtower, Forge, and like all the Treasures in its set that cost less than 5 coins. Still, it feels a bit dry to me when I think about it.

Also, saying Trade Route is subpar is like the Awaclus version of "Hey Kool-Aid".
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teamlyle

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #102 on: July 17, 2018, 10:19:08 am »
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But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - (...) Mountebank.

No doubt Mountebank is strong, but I hate it. Seeing that ugly image on the randomized board immediately lets me know that it's going to be a long, painful game.
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #103 on: July 17, 2018, 10:43:57 am »
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But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - (...) Mountebank.

No doubt Mountebank is strong, but I hate it. Seeing that ugly image on the randomized board immediately lets me know that it's going to be a long, painful game.

Imo, the worst part about Mountebank is the little unpredictable escape hatch built into the attack. I know it's a very strong junker, but I actually think it would be a lot more fun to play with if it didn't just randomly not work sometimes. It just feels so bad to fall behind on junking because your opponent happened to have curses in his starting hands and you didn't.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 10:46:32 am by Screwyioux »
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crj

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #104 on: July 17, 2018, 11:36:10 am »
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I've not bothered ranking all the expansions, but Prosperity is definitely one I don't hate. It contains several of the game's signature cards!
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2018, 11:42:14 am »
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I've not bothered ranking all the expansions, but Prosperity is definitely one I don't hate. It contains several of the game's signature cards!

Are there expansions you do hate? If so, why?
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2018, 12:05:55 pm »
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Prosperity is probably still my least favorite expansion. I like it, but not as much as all the others. I guess Seaside is down there too.
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2018, 12:48:42 pm »
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I didn't realize it had become so popular to hate on Prosperity.  I remember when that was everyone's favorite expansion.  I mean sure, it has Trade Route and Counting House and a few dud Treasures.  But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - King's Court, Grand Market, Goons, Mountebank.  Rabble is a solid draw card, Cities can get insane, Worker's Village is a solid village, Watchtower is quite good.  And getting free Peddlers is awesome!  You can make a golden deck with Bishop, and Monument is pretty nice if you can get it rolling early.

Anyway, I love all the expansions, and couldn't possibly rank them, except Bridge Troll is probably my favorite card.  So props to Adventures for that.

I think you make a mistake arguing about a card being strong when people say a card isn't fun. Rebuild is also one of the strongest cards in the game, which doesn't make it fun. I do like Prosperity, but Goons, King's Court and Mountebank can be really oppressive and I definitely understand why people might not like them.

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2018, 12:56:42 pm »
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Are there expansions you do hate? If so, why?
Not that I hate, but honestly I'm not much liking what's happened to Dominion in the past couple of years. Empires, Nocturne, the second-edition changes to Base and Intrigue, "you may X for Y", the new reshuffle rule and especially that "Coffers" change to Guilds don't thrill me. )-8

Adventures was great, apart from the manufacturing fubar. I'm really hoping I'll like whatever happens next that much.
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msw188

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2018, 03:45:18 pm »
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I don't think I hate any expansion, but yeah Prosperity is at the bottom for me.  I remember a friend had this box, and we'd get groups together to play, and I'd always start out thinking "I should use cards from this since I don't get to play with it as often," then looking over the cards and having trouble picking some.

I'm no expert, but I will stand by Goons as probably the worst card in Dominion in terms of "promotes monolithic play".  I'd be interested to see a board with Goons where "be able to play as many Goons as quickly as possible" isn't the only winning strategy.  I guess maybe some sort of extremely fast pileout board, which would probably also trounce anything else considered monolithic (like Rebuild, say).

There are several cards in Prosperity that are fine, but a bit boring.  This isn't just because it's an early expansion.  Compare Worker's Village (a fine village!) with Mining Village which is probably a less helpful village, but a lot more interesting to play with.  In fact, Worker's Village ends up making buys on other cards feel less valuable, because you know you're going to need a couple villages anyways, so you'll be getting "buys for free".  Another example is Monument (I do like this card though!).  Loan and Trade Route are others where, it seems okay as a single card trasher, but is it really that fun?  If there's any other trasher, this is probably redundant and of questionable utility (and Loan can cause you to skip your other trasher).  If there is no other trasher, I always feel like these guys force themselves to be useful, rather than feeling fun/interesting in their own right.  I'd also prefer it if Loan could put the revealed treasure back on top as an option.

There are also cards that are just old cards +1, but where this extra +1 warps the potential strength of the card so greatly that it must be priced too high for early gameplay.  As a result I end up enjoying the earlier versions better, unless Platinum/Colony are in:
-Throne Room (almost always fun!) vs King's Court (sometimes just too bonkers for me, also 'sort of' monolithic).  Meanwhile, I love the middle ground of Royal Carriage.
-Remodel (almost always fun!) vs Expand (sometimes fun, but other times is this even worth it by the time you can afford it?).  Meanwhile, I love the middle ground of Transmogrify, Butcher, Taxman, some others.  I also like Forge as a more interesting version of an expensive super-remodeler.
-I think Market and Grand Market are both a bit boring, but at least Market is available for more of the game in some sense.

All that said, let me list some other cards from Properity I do really enjoy, since I claim not to hate it:
-Watchtower (super cool reaction especially for certain boards)
-Contraband (one of my favorite interactions)
-Rabble
-Bank
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Asper

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2018, 07:01:16 pm »
+2

I didn't realize it had become so popular to hate on Prosperity.  I remember when that was everyone's favorite expansion.  I mean sure, it has Trade Route and Counting House and a few dud Treasures.  But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - King's Court, Grand Market, Goons, Mountebank.  Rabble is a solid draw card, Cities can get insane, Worker's Village is a solid village, Watchtower is quite good.  And getting free Peddlers is awesome!  You can make a golden deck with Bishop, and Monument is pretty nice if you can get it rolling early.

Anyway, I love all the expansions, and couldn't possibly rank them, except Bridge Troll is probably my favorite card.  So props to Adventures for that.

I think you make a mistake arguing about a card being strong when people say a card isn't fun. Rebuild is also one of the strongest cards in the game, which doesn't make it fun. I do like Prosperity, but Goons, King's Court and Mountebank can be really oppressive and I definitely understand why people might not like them.

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2018, 08:24:00 pm »
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I didn't realize it had become so popular to hate on Prosperity.  I remember when that was everyone's favorite expansion.  I mean sure, it has Trade Route and Counting House and a few dud Treasures.  But it also has some of the strongest cards in the game - King's Court, Grand Market, Goons, Mountebank.  Rabble is a solid draw card, Cities can get insane, Worker's Village is a solid village, Watchtower is quite good.  And getting free Peddlers is awesome!  You can make a golden deck with Bishop, and Monument is pretty nice if you can get it rolling early.

My thoughts exactly. Prosperity was my first expansion, mostly because of the good reviews I saw on this forum. Maybe the most recent expansions have changed some opinions.
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markusin

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2018, 08:39:42 pm »
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Prosperity is probably still my least favorite expansion. I like it, but not as much as all the others. I guess Seaside is down there too.

I feel like Seaside is a set I enjoy more when I only see a couple of cards from it at a time.

Oh wow, I had to check if Cutpurse was from Seaside or Prosperity. That kind of set mixup normally never happens to me, maybe because I took note of the more commonly confusing ones like Talisman (Prosperity) and Treasury (Seaside).

I recently bought Prosperity, but still don't own Seaside. I am also missing Alchemy, Hinterlands, Empires, and Nocturne.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 08:40:55 pm by markusin »
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2018, 11:39:04 pm »
+2

I'm no expert, but I will stand by Goons as probably the worst card in Dominion in terms of "promotes monolithic play".

Not Rebuild? Rebuild seems to me like far and away the worst promoter of monolithic play. With Goons you have to buy stuff to draw and give you +actions, and then a bunch of cheap stuff for the VP. With Rebuild you mostly just get Rebuilds, Silvers and Duchies. Rebuild stands out for how powerful it is combined with how few other cards it actually interacts with.
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2018, 03:31:11 am »
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Indeed, with Goons I see less snowballing than with King's Court, which shines even when drawn with Pearl Divers. To set up a Goons winning strategy, especially if there's no convincing +Cards or +Actions in the kingdom, requires some skill. Do I buy another Goons or rather several cheap cards which advance my strategy less than a new Goons? I feel that this dilemma appears earlier than the engine/VP one.
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Asper

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2018, 04:17:27 am »
+2

I personally think that one of the best parts of Prosperity are its high number of non-attack player interaction cards: Bishop, City, Vault, Trade Route, Counterfeit...

Just like Seaside, but also like Base, Intrigue and Hinterlands, it suffers from the fact that later expansions would re-use and improve core mechanics it introduced.

I'm no expert, but I will stand by Goons as probably the worst card in Dominion in terms of "promotes monolithic play".

Not Rebuild? Rebuild seems to me like far and away the worst promoter of monolithic play. With Goons you have to buy stuff to draw and give you +actions, and then a bunch of cheap stuff for the VP. With Rebuild you mostly just get Rebuilds, Silvers and Duchies. Rebuild stands out for how powerful it is combined with how few other cards it actually interacts with.

Rebuild is far more monolithic in my book, too. But whereas Goons drags the game out, Rebuild shortens it. Also, whereas Rebuild just makes the game boring, constantly being on the receiving end of Goons feels just frustrating.

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2018, 08:35:17 am »
+3

What do we mean by Monolithic?

Regardless of power level, I think the big difference between Goons and Rebuild is interactivity with the rest of the kingdom and variability of builds.

Rebuild is powerful in the same way in every kingdom in which it appears and those games feel pretty much the same, whereas Goons, while centralizing, is an expensive, terminal stop card, meaning you need to support your deck in every way imaginable to maximize it, making the way it centralizes the board different every game.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2018, 10:49:00 am »
+1

Even Colony/Platinum is not exclusive to Prosperity now that Base Cards can be bought separately.

If you're playing by the official rules, there is no way to have Colony/Platinum in the game unless you have at least 1 Prosperity card in the Kingdom. Of course, of all the official rules, that seems like the best candidate for not following it if you don't want to.
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2018, 10:57:30 am »
+1

Even Colony/Platinum is not exclusive to Prosperity now that Base Cards can be bought separately.

If you're playing by the official rules, there is no way to have Colony/Platinum in the game unless you have at least 1 Prosperity card in the Kingdom. Of course, of all the official rules, that seems like the best candidate for not following it if you don't want to.

I know you aren't supposed to use Platinum/Colony without a Prosperity card on the board. But like, if someone sees a board and feels like adding Platinum/Colony, it would feel a bit dumb to say "okay hold on, let me replace this card here with Venture to make that legal." I'm sure a bunch of people ignore the rule already.
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crj

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2018, 12:31:57 pm »
+4

If you're playing by the official rules, there is no way to have Colony/Platinum in the game unless you have at least 1 Prosperity card in the Kingdom.
Quote from: The official rules
Prosperity includes two new base cards, Platinum and Colony. You can include them whenever you want to; they are always used together. If you want to determine when to use them randomly, choose a random Kingdom card being used, and if it is from Prosperity, use Platinum and Colony.
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Asper

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2018, 12:33:28 pm »
0

If you're playing by the official rules, there is no way to have Colony/Platinum in the game unless you have at least 1 Prosperity card in the Kingdom.
Quote from: The official rules
Prosperity includes two new base cards, Platinum and Colony. You can include them whenever you want to; they are always used together. If you want to determine when to use them randomly, choose a random Kingdom card being used, and if it is from Prosperity, use Platinum and Colony.

But...
What if I want to play using Colony only?

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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2018, 01:27:51 pm »
0

What do we mean by Monolithic?

Regardless of power level, I think the big difference between Goons and Rebuild is interactivity with the rest of the kingdom and variability of builds.

Rebuild is powerful in the same way in every kingdom in which it appears and those games feel pretty much the same, whereas Goons, while centralizing, is an expensive, terminal stop card, meaning you need to support your deck in every way imaginable to maximize it, making the way it centralizes the board different every game.

Right. In my mind, "monolithic" is not the same as "must-buy." "Must-buy" is not necessarily bad design, as the decision of how to use it can still be interesting. But "monolithic" generally is bad design, as the decisions of whether to buy and how to use it are both uninteresting.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:29:06 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2018, 01:54:25 pm »
+2

What do we mean by Monolithic?

Regardless of power level, I think the big difference between Goons and Rebuild is interactivity with the rest of the kingdom and variability of builds.

Rebuild is powerful in the same way in every kingdom in which it appears and those games feel pretty much the same, whereas Goons, while centralizing, is an expensive, terminal stop card, meaning you need to support your deck in every way imaginable to maximize it, making the way it centralizes the board different every game.

Right. In my mind, "monolithic" is not the same as "must-buy." "Must-buy" is not necessarily bad design, as the decision of how to use it can still be interesting. But "monolithic" generally is bad design, as the decisions of whether to buy and how to use it are both uninteresting.

When I hear of "monolithic", I think of a card where optimal use of it uses very little of the rest of the kingdom and happens to be decently effective. Rebuild doesn't mesh well with many other cards, but Wharf does.

I wonder if a hypothetical version or Museum that gave 8VP per differently named card would be considered "monolithic" since the part where you almost certainly pursue it heavily is uninteresting but it has you use the rest of the kingdom. I guess Donate already fits that description.
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2018, 10:26:52 pm »
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Okay maybe I should have said "centralizing" instead of "monolithic" about Goons.  And it's more an opinion than an actual fact of any sort.  I feel that any board with Goons on it automatically becomes "how can I maximize my Goons output as early and as consistently as possible?"  Practically no other payload matters in comparison.  The attack is brutal, contributes to snowballing, and typically is impossible to ignore.  The coin payload is large enough to hold its own.  It comes with its own buy.  It comes with its own VP without necessarily worsening your deck.  Very few cards do even one of those things better than Goons, and it does them all.  Of course, it's terminal.  Like almost any other worthwhile payload.  So yeah, you need to use the rest of the Kingdom to support it.  But that feels like what always happens - the rest of the kingdom is relegated to support, and any other terminal better have something to do with playing more Goons (same as all the rest - draw, villages, trashing, etc).

I don't mind attacks!  I like Militia, Ghost Ship, Legionary etc, because alone they only provide about half of what Goons does.  You need some other payload together with them to make it all work at the end.  I like Witch and Torturer.  Even though junking can snowball too, it runs out after awhile and at least at the end of the day you need some other sort of payload.  A lot of the later attacks (Adventures, Empire) are more interesting and less snowball-inducing, which is great.  They also don't provide all the forms of payload you need.

I wonder if people would like Rebuild better if it were terminal.  In such a case, would we call it less monolithic, even though it might still have the ability to be centralizing?  Or would it even be so great in that scenario, since it doesn't really earn THAT much VP per play?
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Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« Reply #124 on: July 19, 2018, 04:07:13 am »
0

Okay maybe I should have said "centralizing" instead of "monolithic" about Goons.  And it's more an opinion than an actual fact of any sort.  I feel that any board with Goons on it automatically becomes "how can I maximize my Goons output as early and as consistently as possible?"  Practically no other payload matters in comparison.

The megaturn payloads like Bridge Troll still matter, because they can make Goons VP completely irrelevant.
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