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markusin

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Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« on: January 26, 2018, 11:30:39 am »
+6

The release of Qvist's Dominion Cards List results is a time of excitement. A time where you get the chance to tell everyone how the perceptions people have on the strengths of certain cards are completely wrong.

It seems like we don't have a convenient place to reflect on our thoughts concerning the rankings as a whole, so I opened this thread here for people to do just that. Maybe you want to comment to trends you've noticed in the ranking changes, or you want to throw out a "Top X 2017 Misranks According to Me" post. I don't know.

I am a bit busy right now, so to get the ball rolling I'll just post my top and bottom 20 cards overall (manually ranked).

Top 20:
1. Donate
2. Masquerade
3. King's Court
4. Goons
5. Ambassador
6. Mountebank
7. Cultist
8. Chapel
9. Remake
10. Steward
11. Witch
12. Sentry
13. Wharf
14 . Peasant
15. Lost Arts
16. Upgrade
17. Junk Dealer
18. Ironmonger
19. Ghost Ship
20. Governor

Bottom 20:
317. Raid
318. Embargo
319. Tax
320. Taxman
321. Death Cart
322. Venture
323. Cache
324. Counting House
325. Ritual
326. Annex
327. Noble Brigand
328. Pirate Ship
329. Beggar
330. Duchess
331. Philosopher's Stone
332. Bureaucrat
333. Merchant Ship
334. Transmute
335. Harvest
336. Stash

Uh, I'm not sure what Merchant Ship is doing so low. And Maybe Steward is too high, but the stuff it does when it's not trashing is still quite neat.
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Limetime

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 12:17:12 pm »
0

You put noble brigand to low and masq to high.
noble brigand is really good for money strategies.
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markusin

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 01:05:52 pm »
0

You put noble brigand to low and masq to high.
noble brigand is really good for money strategies.

Yeah I only became informed about Noble Brigand sometime after the rankings were being tallied. Someone pointed to the numbers for BM+X win percentages, but I don't remember where that post is.
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O

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 01:25:29 pm »
+22

O's super secret all encompassing power rankings and strategy guide, posted by tiers. IMO much more useful advice than card rankings and only 75% as likely to cause unhelpful bickering and semantic comparisons that have no strategic value

Donate:

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Advance, Adventurer, Advisor, Alchemist, Alms, Altar, Ambassador, Amulet, Annex, Apothecary, Apprentice, Aqueduct, Archive, Arena, Armory, Artificer, Bag of Gold, Baker, Ball, Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Bandit Fort, Bank, Banquet, Bard, Baron, Basilica, Baths, Battlefield, Bazaar, Beggar, Bishop, Black Market, Blessed Village, Bonfire, Border Village, Borrow, Bridge, Bridge Troll, Bureaucrat, Bustling Village, Butcher, Cache, Candlestick Maker, Capital, Caravan, Caravan Guard, Cartographer, Castles, Catacombs, Catapult, Catapult/Rocks, Cellar, Cemetery, Champion, Chancellor, Changeling, Chapel, Chariot Race, Charm, City, City Quarter, Cobbler, Coin of the Realm, Colonnade, Colony, Conclave, Conquest, Conspirator, Contraband, Copper, Coppersmith, Council Room, Count, Counterfeit, Counting House, Courtyard, Crossroads, Crown, Crumbling Castle, Crypt, Cultist, Cursed Village, Cutpurse, Dame Anna, Dame Josephine, Dame Molly, Dame Natalie, Dame Sylvia, Death Cart, Defiled Shrine, Delve, Den of Sin, Develop, Devil's Workshop, Diadem, Disciple, Distant Lands, Doctor, Dominate, Druid, Duchess, Duchy, Duke, Dungeon, Duplicate, Embargo, Embassy, Emporium, Encampment, Encampment/Plunder, Enchantress, Engineer, Envoy, Estate, Exorcist, Expand, Expedition, Explorer, Fairgrounds, Familiar, Farmers' Market, Farming Village, Farmland, Faithful Hound, Feast, Feodum, Ferry, Festival, Fishing Village, Followers, Fool, Fool's Gold, Forager, Forge, Fortress, Fortune, Fortune Teller, Forum, Fountain, Fugitive, Gardens, Gear, Ghost Ship, Ghost Town, Giant, Gladiator, Gladiator/Fortune, Gold, Golem, Goons, Governor, Grand Castle, Grand Market, Graverobber, Great Hall, Groundskeeper, Guardian, Guide, Haggler, Hamlet, Harem, Harvest, Haunted Castle, Haunted Woods, Haven, Herald, Herbalist, Hermit, Hero, Highway, Hireling, Hoard, Horn of Plenty, Horse Traders, Humble Castle, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Party, Idol, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inheritance, Inn, Ironmonger, Ironworks, Island, Jack of all Trades, Jester, Journeyman, Junk Dealer, Keep, King's Castle, King's Court, Knights, Laboratory, Labyrinth, Legionary, Leprechaun, Library, Lighthouse, Loan, Lookout, Lost Arts, Lost City, Madman, Magpie, Mandarin, Marauder, Margrave, Market, Market Square, Masquerade, Masterpiece, Menagerie, Mercenary, Merchant Guild, Merchant Ship, Messenger, Militia, Mine, Mining Village, Minion, Mint, Miser, Mission, Moat, Monastery, Moneylender, Monument, Mountain Pass, Mountebank, Museum, Mystic, Native Village, Navigator, Necromancer, Night Watchman, Noble Brigand, Nobles, Nomad Camp, Oasis, Obelisk, Opulent Castle, Oracle, Orchard, Outpost, Overlord, Page, Palace, Pathfinding, Patrician, Patrician/Emporium, Pawn, Pearl Diver, Peasant, Peddler, Philosopher's Stone, Pilgrimage, Pillage, Pirate Ship, Pixie, Plan, Platinum, Plaza, Plunder, Pooka, Poor House, Port, Possession, Potion, Prince, Princess, Procession, Province, Quarry, Quest, Rabble, Raid, Raider, Ranger, Ratcatcher, Rats, Raze, Rebuild, Relic, Remake, Remodel, Ritual, Rocks, Rogue, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Carriage, Royal Seal, Saboteur, Sacred Grove, Sacrifice, Sage, Salt the Earth, Salvager, Save, Scavenger, Scheme, Scout, Scouting Party, Scrying Pool, Sea Hag, Seaway, Secret Cave, Secret Chamber, Settlers, Settlers/Bustling Village, Shanty Town, Shepard, Silk Road, Silver, Sir Bailey, Sir Destry, Sir Martin, Sir Michael, Sir Vander, Skulk, Small Castle, Smithy, Smugglers, Soldier, Soothsayer, Spice Merchant, Spoils, Sprawling Castle, Spy, Squire, Stables, Stash, Steward, Stonemason, Storeroom, Storyteller, Summon,  Swamp Hag, Swindler, Tactician, Talisman, Tax, Taxman, Teacher, Temple, Thief, Throne Room, Tomb, Tormentor, Torturer, Tournament, Tower, Tracker, Trade, Trade Route, Trader, Trading Post, Tragic Hero, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Treasure Hunter, Treasure Map, Treasure Trove, Treasury, Tribute, Triumph, Triumphal Arch, Trusty Steed, Tunnel, University, Upgrade, Urchin, Vagrant, Vampire, Vault, Venture, Villa, Village, Vineyard, Wall, Walled Village, Wandering Minstrel, Warehouse, Warrior, Watchtower, Wedding, Werewolf, Wharf, Wild Hunt, Windfall, Wine Merchant, Wishing Well, Witch, Wolf Den, Woodcutter, Worker's Village, Workshop, Young Witch:

Depends on the kingdom.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 01:37:12 pm by O »
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Cuzz

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 01:30:53 pm »
+10

O's super secret all encompassing power rankings and strategy guide, posted by tiers. IMO much more useful advice than card rankings and only 75% as likely to cause unhelpful bickering and semantic comparisons that have no strategic value

Donate:

Buy this.

Transmute:

Don't buy this.

Advance, Adventurer, Advisor, Alchemist, Alms, Altar, Ambassador, Amulet, Annex, Apothecary, Apprentice, Aqueduct, Archive, Arena, Armory, Artificer, Bag of Gold, Baker, Ball, Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Bandit Fort, Bank, Banquet, Bard, Baron, Basilica, Baths, Battlefield, Bazaar, Beggar, Bishop, Black Market, Blessed Village, Bonfire, Border Village, Borrow, Bridge, Bridge Troll, Bureaucrat, Bustling Village, Butcher, Cache, Candlestick Maker, Capital, Caravan, Caravan Guard, Cartographer, Castles, Catacombs, Catapult, Catapult/Rocks, Cellar, Cemetery, Champion, Chancellor, Changeling, Chapel, Chariot Race, Charm, City, City Quarter, Cobbler, Coin of the Realm, Colonnade, Colony, Conclave, Conquest, Conspirator, Contraband, Copper, Coppersmith, Council Room, Count, Counterfeit, Counting House, Courtyard, Crossroads, Crown, Crumbling Castle, Crypt, Cultist, Cursed Village, Cutpurse, Dame Anna, Dame Josephine, Dame Molly, Dame Natalie, Dame Sylvia, Death Cart, Defiled Shrine, Delve, Den of Sin, Develop, Devil's Workshop, Diadem, Disciple, Distant Lands, Doctor, Dominate, Druid, Duchess, Duchy, Duke, Dungeon, Duplicate, Embargo, Embassy, Emporium, Encampment, Encampment/Plunder, Enchantress, Engineer, Envoy, Estate, Exorcist, Expand, Expedition, Explorer, Fairgrounds, Familiar, Farmers' Market, Farming Village, Farmland, Faithful Hound, Feast, Feodum, Ferry, Festival, Fishing Village, Followers, Fool, Fool's Gold, Forager, Forge, Fortress, Fortune, Fortune Teller, Forum, Fountain, Fugitive, Gardens, Gear, Ghost Ship, Ghost Town, Giant, Gladiator, Gladiator/Fortune, Gold, Golem, Goons, Governor, Grand Castle, Grand Market, Graverobber, Great Hall, Groundskeeper, Guardian, Guide, Haggler, Hamlet, Harem, Harvest, Haunted Castle, Haunted Woods, Haven, Herald, Herbalist, Hermit, Hero, Highway, Hireling, Hoard, Horn of Plenty, Horse Traders, Hovel, Humble Castle, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Party, Idol, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inheritance, Inn, Ironmonger, Ironworks, Island, Jack of all Trades, Jester, Journeyman, Junk Dealer, Keep, King's Castle, King's Court, Knights, Laboratory, Labyrinth, Legionary, Leprechaun, Library, Lighthouse, Loan, Lookout, Lost Arts, Lost City, Madman, Magpie, Mandarin, Marauder, Margrave, Market, Market Square, Masquerade, Masterpiece, Menagerie, Mercenary, Merchant Guild, Merchant Ship, Messenger, Militia, Mine, Mining Village, Minion, Mint, Miser, Mission, Moat, Monastery, Moneylender, Monument, Mountain Pass, Mountebank, Museum, Mystic, Native Village, Navigator, Necromancer, Necropolis, Night Watchman, Noble Brigand, Nobles, Nomad Camp, Oasis, Obelisk, Opulent Castle, Oracle, Orchard, Outpost, Overgrown Estate, Overlord, Page, Palace, Pathfinding, Patrician, Patrician/Emporium, Pawn, Pearl Diver, Peasant, Peddler, Philosopher's Stone, Pilgrimage, Pillage, Pirate Ship, Pixie, Plan, Platinum, Plaza, Plunder, Pooka, Poor House, Port, Possession, Potion, Prince, Princess, Procession, Province, Quarry, Quest, Rabble, Raid, Raider, Ranger, Ratcatcher, Rats, Raze, Rebuild, Relic, Remake, Remodel, Ritual, Rocks, Rogue, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Carriage, Royal Seal, Saboteur, Sacred Grove, Sacrifice, Sage, Salt the Earth, Salvager, Save, Scavenger, Scheme, Scout, Scouting Party, Scrying Pool, Sea Hag, Seaway, Secret Cave, Secret Chamber, Settlers, Settlers/Bustling Village, Shanty Town, Shepard, Silk Road, Silver, Sir Bailey, Sir Destry, Sir Martin, Sir Michael, Sir Vander, Skulk, Small Castle, Smithy, Smugglers, Soldier, Soothsayer, Spice Merchant, Spoils, Sprawling Castle, Spy, Squire, Stables, Stash, Steward, Stonemason, Storeroom, Storyteller, Summon,  Swamp Hag, Swindler, Tactician, Talisman, Tax, Taxman, Teacher, Temple, Thief, Throne Room, Tomb, Tormentor, Torturer, Tournament, Tower, Tracker, Trade, Trade Route, Trader, Trading Post, Tragic Hero, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Treasure Hunter, Treasure Map, Treasure Trove, Treasury, Tribute, Triumph, Triumphal Arch, Trusty Steed, Tunnel, University, Upgrade, Urchin, Vagrant, Vampire, Vault, Venture, Villa, Village, Vineyard, Wall, Walled Village, Wandering Minstrel, Warehouse, Warrior, Watchtower, Wedding, Werewolf, Wharf, Wild Hunt, Windfall, Wine Merchant, Wishing Well, Witch, Wolf Den, Woodcutter, Worker's Village, Workshop, Young Witch:

Depends on the kingdom.

I don't think the decision to buy Necropolis or not depends on the kingdom  so sorry
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O

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 01:36:37 pm »
+2

I knew I missed some to remove...
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terminalCopper

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 01:52:01 pm »
0

I mostly agree, i. e., I have 15 of your top 20 in mine as well, and all of them would be at least, say, Top 40.

My least subtle disagreements:

3.) Wandering Ministrel > Ironmonger

WM is best for engines without trashing, and it‘s more reliable. Granted, Ironmonger is better with treasures. Treasures, meh.

2.) Torturer > Ghost Ship

The first Ghost Ship might be a notch better than the first torturer you play (I think the meaner attack is more important than 1 card). But the second play, it‘s faithful hound, whereas Torturer starts to take off. Torturer chains dominate boards way more often than ghost ship does.

1.) Tournament

... is Top 10 for me! To judge a cards power, consider games where one goes for it but the other doesn‘t. Skipping it is like saying „Here you are, some followers, a Steed and a princess for free - and hey, what about some gold and some duchies on top?“ This would lose many games, which is the reason why it  virtually never happens.
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markusin

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2018, 02:20:18 pm »
0

I mostly agree, i. e., I have 15 of your top 20 in mine as well, and all of them would be at least, say, Top 40.

My least subtle disagreements:

3.) Wandering Ministrel > Ironmonger

WM is best for engines without trashing, and it‘s more reliable. Granted, Ironmonger is better with treasures. Treasures, meh.

2.) Torturer > Ghost Ship

The first Ghost Ship might be a notch better than the first torturer you play (I think the meaner attack is more important than 1 card). But the second play, it‘s faithful hound, whereas Torturer starts to take off. Torturer chains dominate boards way more often than ghost ship does.

1.) Tournament

... is Top 10 for me! To judge a cards power, consider games where one goes for it but the other doesn‘t. Skipping it is like saying „Here you are, some followers, a Steed and a princess for free - and hey, what about some gold and some duchies on top?“ This would lose many games, which is the reason why it  virtually never happens.

Huh, odd that I didn't have Tournament in the top 20. It's in the top 30, and 3rd in the 4-cost card rankings.

I gave the nod to Ironmonger over Wandering Minstrel because Ironmonger is a great opener that stays decent later, while Wandering Minstrel is a meh opener at best but gets super good later. I probably underranked Minstrel this year.

Torturer is meh in single-terminal-per-turn games compared to Ghost Ship, and there are still a bunch of those going around. Torturer is not far behind though, being in the top 25.

Another card I have in the top 25 is Knights. I guess I agree with Seprix that Knights where underrated, though I can be convinced otherwise.

It's hard to rank cards accruately these days because there are so many cards now and so any particular card is less likely to show up. This means you have fewer games with each card on which to base rankings on average.
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faust

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Re: Reflections on the Dominion Cards List 2017
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2018, 05:15:19 am »
+3

Another card I have in the top 25 is Knights. I guess I agree with Seprix that Knights where underrated, though I can be convinced otherwise.
Knights are somewhat tricky to rank. if one person buys them and the other doesn't, and both players know this, they will be very strong. But often there's a bad Knight on top and you don't touch that pile out of fear that you will uncover Dame Anna or something for your opponent. In such games it can easily happen that no Knights are bought, but that is not necessarily because you don't want Knights.
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