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Author Topic: Holunder's cards  (Read 5701 times)

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Thanar

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2018, 02:05:14 am »
+1

Thanks for making this set!

While downloading everything from the (updated) first post, I noticed that your imgur folder only contains 19 unique Traitor cards (5 Backstabbers, 5 Defectors, 5 Heretics, but just 4 Turncoats), instead of the advertised 20. Can you add the missing Turncoat?
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2018, 07:05:09 am »
+1

Thanks for your kind words and pointing out the missing Traitori, I fixed it.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2018, 03:08:03 pm »
0



This is based on an idea by Seprix.
If you give it a fixed price it could be better than Province in some Kingdoms (e.g. if there are Attacks, Durations and Night cards this is better than Province as you can always buy a Curse to make Gate worth 7VPs). The variable/extra cost is a way to make the card a bit more interesting. Now you want to gain it when you have few different types in play yet your deck should have many different types.
Not sure on the numbers yet. To make the "gain at the right moment" aspect more relevant it could e.g. be 3-2 instead of 5-1 (implying a "base" price of 5 Coin and 2 Debt; you will rarely have only Actions or only Treasures in play).
A Peddler-like wording, e.g. "This costs 1 more per different type on the cards you have in play." is an alternative but it seems needlessly complicated with trash for benefit around.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2018, 05:53:17 pm »
0

I am not too happy with the current version. Not so much because the debt is not elegant but because it doesn't punish multiple types harsh enough. The debt version with 3-2 could just be too easy with gainers so I am going to try a straightforward cost increase. It shouldn't run into any issues except for trashing attacks. Unless you have an Action-Duration in play Knight (at a price of 7 it is safe) and Swindler (unless there are others 7s you get another Gate) could kill this.


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GendoIkari

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2018, 06:27:08 pm »
0

Although I really like the idea of Gate, I'm not sure how it will work given that it seems to be too literally dependent upon the Kingdom. As in; while all card's are better or worse in different Kingdoms, Gate has an easy-to-see hard cap which can vary wildly from game to game.

The max could be as little as 4 in some Kingdoms, and up to 22 in others.

While other victory cards may have some Kingdoms that make their caps easier to reach; the only example I can think of with a changing hard cap like this is Fairgrounds; and other than Black Market, it has a pretty small range of value. *Edit* Technically Vineyard and Silk Road have a kingdom-dependent cap; but only if you consider the situations of buying out the Kingdom pretty much.

For fun, a Kingdom that lets you get all 22 different types in your deck (without needing Black Market). It was actually pretty hard to figure out.




« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 06:36:24 pm by GendoIkari »
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Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2018, 07:27:14 pm »
+1

Although I really like the idea of Gate, I'm not sure how it will work given that it seems to be too literally dependent upon the Kingdom. As in; while all card's are better or worse in different Kingdoms, Gate has an easy-to-see hard cap which can vary wildly from game to game.

The max could be as little as 4 in some Kingdoms, and up to 22 in others.

While other victory cards may have some Kingdoms that make their caps easier to reach; the only example I can think of with a changing hard cap like this is Fairgrounds; and other than Black Market, it has a pretty small range of value. *Edit* Technically Vineyard and Silk Road have a kingdom-dependent cap; but only if you consider the situations of buying out the Kingdom pretty much.

For fun, a Kingdom that lets you get all 22 different types in your deck (without needing Black Market). It was actually pretty hard to figure out.




You have Necromancer, but no way to get a Zombie into your deck!
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2018, 01:33:56 am »
0

Although I really like the idea of Gate, I'm not sure how it will work given that it seems to be too literally dependent upon the Kingdom. As in; while all card's are better or worse in different Kingdoms, Gate has an easy-to-see hard cap which can vary wildly from game to game.
I agree. It is fairly easy to get most types present in a Kingdom into your deck (if you have half the pile of Gates in a game without junkers it can even make sense to buy a Curse in the endgame as it is the equivalent of a Duchy) whereas other Alt-VP depends more sensitively on your deck. So even without cost scaling the card could be too bland.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2018, 07:58:21 am »
0

Although I really like the idea of Gate, I'm not sure how it will work given that it seems to be too literally dependent upon the Kingdom. As in; while all card's are better or worse in different Kingdoms, Gate has an easy-to-see hard cap which can vary wildly from game to game.

The max could be as little as 4 in some Kingdoms, and up to 22 in others.

While other victory cards may have some Kingdoms that make their caps easier to reach; the only example I can think of with a changing hard cap like this is Fairgrounds; and other than Black Market, it has a pretty small range of value. *Edit* Technically Vineyard and Silk Road have a kingdom-dependent cap; but only if you consider the situations of buying out the Kingdom pretty much.

For fun, a Kingdom that lets you get all 22 different types in your deck (without needing Black Market). It was actually pretty hard to figure out.




You have Necromancer, but no way to get a Zombie into your deck!

Dang it! It might be impossible then. Any of the very few ways to get a card from the trash donít provide any extra types.  So 21 might be the limit.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2018, 03:29:48 am »
0

After some playtesting Djinn got changed as the on-gain restriction made the card too swingy.

Given the abundance of $4 villages I have a weakness for $2 villages so here is a quick, random idea:

+1 Card
+1 Action

You may discard an Action card for +1 Card and +1 Action.

or slight weaker:

You may discard an Action card for +2 Cards and +2 Actions.
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Kudasai

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2018, 06:33:05 pm »
0

After some playtesting Djinn got changed as the on-gain restriction made the card too swingy.

Given the abundance of $4 villages I have a weakness for $2 villages so here is a quick, random idea:

+1 Card
+1 Action

You may discard an Action card for +1 Card and +1 Action.

or slight weaker:

You may discard an Action card for +2 Cards and +2 Actions.

I too love $2 cost Villages, but man do they seem hard to get right. You want them to be worthwhile, but not overpowered at cost $2. I admire you for tackling this tricky nut.

Thoughts: In both versions you are buying a conditional village that may do nothing when played, all to save 1 coin on the buy. Since the difference between $2 and $3 isn't much, it seems to come down to +Buys. Without those on the board it might be hard to find a good time to pick these up. So my suggestion would be to go for the second version and have it add an unconditional +1 Buy. Of course this is now very similar to Hamlet.

I always thought it would be cool to have a card that has the following: "In games using this, you may overpay for Estates (or maybe Duchies?). For each 1 Coin you overpay, gain a <card>." Maybe this is that card!? :I
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 06:35:58 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2018, 09:20:10 am »
0

Without those on the board it might be hard to find a good time to pick these up. So my suggestion would be to go for the second version and have it add an unconditional +1 Buy. Of course this is now very similar to Hamlet.
I guess it would be totally OK to have this with an extra Buy and a cost of $3. After all it is just a basic idea for a weaker village and any kind of extra can be added to it.

About Hamlet, note that Hamlet reduces handsize whereas this village does not. So although it seems to be similar to Hamlet I don't think that it is. Hamlet is good in junking-intense games or with draw-to-X.
This village is good in any draw engine and as good as Village in a deck that draws itself (of course you should discard payload first and maintain terminal draw Actions in your hand).
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2018, 02:59:36 pm »
+1



Lich is inspiread by Kudasai's Old Witch but will play quite differently. It is a half-Curser, meaning that the first time you play it everybody else gets the negative VP and the second time the junk lands in their decks. In addition to that it is mainly a Copper trasher (you can put Curses on the mat to delay the inevitable or put a Silver there just like you would trash a Silver to make Forager better) and provides some scalable payload.

I am not sure about whether the card is good enough and shouldn't rather be buffed into a Night card or whether the whole mixture sucks, meaning that the half-cursing should be tacked onto something else.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 03:20:16 pm by Holunder9 »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2018, 03:09:43 pm »
0



Lich is inspiread by Kudasai's Old Witch but will play quite differently. It is a half-Curser, meaning that the first time you play it everybody else gets the negative VP and the second time the junk lands in their decks. In addition to that it is mainly a Copper junker (you can put Curses on the mat to delay the inevitable or put a Silver there just like you would trash a Silver to make Forager better) and provides some scalable payload.

I am not sure about whether the card is good enough and shouldn't rather be buffed into a Night card or whether the whole mixture sucks, meaning that the half-cursing should be tacked onto something else.

Did you mean Copper trasher instead of Copper junker?

You should probably update "coin tokens" to the coffers wording.

The half curser idea is cool. No idea how strong the rest is; limiting it to non-victory is a big nerf.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2018, 03:19:14 pm »
0

Did you mean Copper trasher instead of Copper junker?

You should probably update "coin tokens" to the coffers wording.

The half curser idea is cool. No idea how strong the rest is; limiting it to non-victory is a big nerf.
- Good catch, of course it should read Copper trasher.
- I don't like the Coffers thingy and don't have a new Guilds copy anyway so I stick with the old Coin tokens wording.
- If the card could set aside Victory cards it would be far too good (even taking into account that then you'd then have to get rid of the overpowered Coin token thing).
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2018, 06:10:32 pm »
0

Hmmmm... This seems like it will be very weak usually.

The cursing is slow, obviously. But the benefit it gives you will also typically just be a much worse Miser. Getting some stuff for the Liches to mat seems like a serious waste of resources, so mostly you'll just be trashing Coppers one at a time.

It will get much better with Shelters of course. And it's probably bonkers with Ruins.

One thing I don't like on first glance is how, especially if there's no trashing, it seems likely to turn into a tug-of-war with the Curses bouncing on and off your Tavern mat. That seems not particularly fun.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2018, 06:45:56 pm »
0

Lich has synergy with Reserve cards. How much this is worth, I do not know.
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Kudasai

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2018, 07:59:25 pm »
0

Lich - The concept is really cool and exciting! In a glass box, the card alone seems to offer a lot of diverse play. I really like how the Curse cycling on your Tavern mat effects the Coin output on play. Throw in Reserve cards and this should make for interesting and fun choices. Hard to tell if the price and power level are correct as this is a tough one the theorize. If adjustments are needed, you have a lot to work with:
-The non-Victory clause could be dropped.
-You could remove the bottom half choice and get both the ability to place a card and get the Coin tokens. If you went this route, you could make the choice be to Curse or to Place/Take Coins. In this version you want to win the Curse split, but you also don't want to give your opponent an extra Coin token early.

Either way I think the core mechanics are very sound and this seems playtestable. I don't play so much in real life, but the next time I do I'll try and squeeze this one into a game. Also, thanks for the shout-out!



 
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LastFootnote

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2018, 10:49:29 pm »
+2

I am not too happy with the current version. Not so much because the debt is not elegant but because it doesn't punish multiple types harsh enough. The debt version with 3-2 could just be too easy with gainers so I am going to try a straightforward cost increase. It shouldn't run into any issues except for trashing attacks. Unless you have an Action-Duration in play Knight (at a price of 7 it is safe) and Swindler (unless there are others 7s you get another Gate) could kill this.



In Adventures, we tested a Treasure that was worth $1 per different type on cards you had in play. It varied too wildly in value, so it turned into a card that cared about having specific types in play, and then finally vastly simplified into Relic.

My suggested fix to the original concept was to also vary the cost, much like Gate; $1 per different type on cards in the Supply. Donald X. never tried it, but in theory it seems like it should work pretty well. I also slapped +1 Buy on it so that it was worth getting over Silver in games with just Action, Victory, Treasure, and Curse in the Supply.

Curio: Treasure, $?
+1 Buy
When you play this, it's worth $1 per type on cards you have in play.
--------------------------
This costs $1 per type on cards in the Supply.

So if you had, say, Caravan (Action-Duration) and Militia (Action-Attack) in the Supply, Curio would start out costing $6 and you could get it up to being worth +$4. The cost would go down to $5 if the Caravans ran out, though. Just as an example.

Anyway, it seemed like it might be fun to try in a game, though I don't know if would actually have lasting appeal. Courtier has already used this concept a bit, and in an arguably more interesting way.

Sorry that this post didn't have anything to do with Gate. It just reminded me of this story.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2018, 04:23:40 am »
0

Lich - The concept is really cool and exciting! In a glass box, the card alone seems to offer a lot of diverse play. I really like how the Curse cycling on your Tavern mat effects the Coin output on play. Throw in Reserve cards and this should make for interesting and fun choices. Hard to tell if the price and power level are correct as this is a tough one the theorize. If adjustments are needed, you have a lot to work with:
-The non-Victory clause could be dropped.
-You could remove the bottom half choice and get both the ability to place a card and get the Coin tokens. If you went this route, you could make the choice be to Curse or to Place/Take Coins. In this version you want to win the Curse split, but you also don't want to give your opponent an extra Coin token early.

Either way I think the core mechanics are very sound and this seems playtestable. I don't play so much in real life, but the next time I do I'll try and squeeze this one into a game. Also, thanks for the shout-out!
I think that is a cool idea as it makes the card attractive in the presence of other Cursers. My version is unlikely to be bought if Mountebank is around but your version would then just be used like e.g. Forager, trashing and some payload.

Due to the Coin tokens, and for thematic reasons, I think though that a natural buff would to make this into a Night card.

I also fear that trashing and yielding Coin tokens could be too good.
In a normal game, after the first play of Lich you will have between 1 and 2 cards on your Tavern mat but as has been pointed out, if there are Shelters, Heirlooms, Ruins, Reserve cards or if you later set aside a Silver, Lich can provide more. As I guess that a vanilla card that provides 3 Coin tokens would be roughly a $5 I fear that Lich could be situationally too good.
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Kudasai

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #94 on: June 10, 2018, 01:26:31 pm »
0

I also fear that trashing and yielding Coin tokens could be too good.
In a normal game, after the first play of Lich you will have between 1 and 2 cards on your Tavern mat but as has been pointed out, if there are Shelters, Heirlooms, Ruins, Reserve cards or if you later set aside a Silver, Lich can provide more. As I guess that a vanilla card that provides 3 Coin tokens would be roughly a $5 I fear that Lich could be situationally too good.

I agree with what Gazbag once said, "Dominion is a situational game", or something to that effect. I don't think these situations will come up often and maybe don't merit planning for, but if you wanna reign in the max power level of Lich you have options:
(1) Cap the amount of Coin tokens Lich can produce. Not very exciting though.
(2) Only count cards on your Tavern mat with one type. This removes Shelters, Ruins, Heirlooms, and Reserve cards in one fell swoop. This should play more or less the same, but if a player really wants to churn out Coin tokens they need to start removing more valuable cards like Silver and Action cards.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 02:09:31 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2018, 04:40:44 pm »
0

OK, here is a quick, wonky idea for an $5 or $6 Action:

Put your hand on top of your deck. Trash this. If you did, gain a Province.

It is like Tactician as it wants virtual Coins, it is like Distant Lands as you do not want to get it too late in the game and it is a Haunted Woods attack against yourself.
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Kudasai

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2018, 09:16:46 pm »
0

OK, here is a quick, wonky idea for an $5 or $6 Action:

Put your hand on top of your deck. Trash this. If you did, gain a Province.

It is like Tactician as it wants virtual Coins, it is like Distant Lands as you do not want to get it too late in the game and it is a Haunted Woods attack against yourself.

Interesting! Cards that lower the Province gaining threshold are always cool. I'm also a fan of top decking cards to setup the next hand. Being restricted to only Province gaining is a bummer though. It seems you'd have to go through a lot of hoops to make this work and then you're only able to gain a single Province per turn. I'd prefer something with more strategic wiggle room. Something that didn't top-deck my whole hand and could gain other non-Province cards.

Not sure if you were looking for feedback or suggestions, but I came up with this:



It can do the same thing as your version, but adds some flexibility in play. If this proved too strong, you could make it check the top-decked cards for different card types, names, or something else completely.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 09:20:41 pm by Kudasai »
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Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2018, 12:06:15 am »
0

OK, here is a quick, wonky idea for an $5 or $6 Action:

Put your hand on top of your deck. Trash this. If you did, gain a Province.

It is like Tactician as it wants virtual Coins, it is like Distant Lands as you do not want to get it too late in the game and it is a Haunted Woods attack against yourself.

Interesting! Cards that lower the Province gaining threshold are always cool. I'm also a fan of top decking cards to setup the next hand. Being restricted to only Province gaining is a bummer though. It seems you'd have to go through a lot of hoops to make this work and then you're only able to gain a single Province per turn. I'd prefer something with more strategic wiggle room. Something that didn't top-deck my whole hand and could gain other non-Province cards.

Not sure if you were looking for feedback or suggestions, but I came up with this:



It can do the same thing as your version, but adds some flexibility in play. If this proved too strong, you could make it check the top-decked cards for different card types, names, or something else completely.

I think the problem with this is that it costs $6, so because it's a one-shot you kind of need to gain a Province anyway to really get anywhere with it?
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Kudasai

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2018, 01:10:42 am »
0

Quote from: Gazbag
I think the problem with this is that it costs $6, so because it's a one-shot you kind of need to gain a Province anyway to really get anywhere with it?

Yeah, the core functionality of gaining Provinces is still the same. This is just nice in the off chance there are other $7 plus cards to be gained.

I also think the top decking for an expensive one-shot like this should be more of a reward and not a punishment. In the absence of trashers, top decking your whole hand would be very brutal.

This might be a bit too strong, but the option to top deck the gained card would also be neat. Would go a long way to justify a $5-6 Coin one-shot.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:16:27 am by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2018, 04:52:45 am »
0

You should call this something with "lands" in the name, because it reminds me of Farmlands and Distand Lands. :P You pay 6 for a Province later, and you need to play it to get the points.

Personally I think it could just say "Trash this to gain a card costing up to 8". Anything else would just plainly downgrade the card, although of course putting cards onto your deck can be useful sometimes(!) and it can't gain Colonies that way. But it's much better in any other case.

Edit: Although my suggestion makes for a veeeery bland card. My point was mostly, it doesn't need to be as weak.
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