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Author Topic: Holunder's cards  (Read 2465 times)

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majiponi

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2018, 11:03:56 am »
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Does Phoenix need draw and set aside?

Quote
For each 2 different named cards in play, set aside the top card of your deck.

How about this phrase?
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2018, 09:00:01 pm »
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Phoenix- So if you have phoenix, copper and two different cards it just turns into a pretty bad den of sins. You would need at least 8+ different cards cards in play to get some good value with the ashes downside in my book, while anything 5 or below seems pretty bad. Seems like a hard card to use well in a deck, and it doesn't look to work well in most kingdoms, but maybe I am underestimating the average amount of different cards in play.

The Night's Watch- No comment, just since the huge amount of different mechanics and I am not even sure how the night's watch card itself works. Might comment later on it, if you keep updating it.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2018, 02:12:37 am »
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The Night's Watch is just the randomizer card. Phoenix is intentionally not good in the opening and the obvious Action card benchmark that'd compensate for the exchanging would be:

Phoenix: +2 Action +3 Cards | When you discard this from play, exchange this for an Ashes.
Ashes: Exchange this for Phoenix.


So the critical number of differently named cards is 6 or 7. That doesn't seem to be too tricky too achieve unless it is a money Kingdom but the line still doesn't provide the Action you have to waste on Ashes. So back to the drawing board.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2018, 08:51:35 am »
+1

Here is a new version of Phoenix that is based on a card tested by DXV for Cornucopia (Nocturne does feel a bit like Cornucopia 2.0 with Conclave, Imp and Magic Lamp):



I guess this will draw around 3-4 cards on average so a bit of extra draw compared to the first version which should compensate for Ashes being terminal.
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2018, 11:24:06 am »
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Here is a new version of Phoenix that is based on a card tested by DXV for Cornucopia (Nocturne does feel a bit like Cornucopia 2.0 with Conclave, Imp and Magic Lamp):



I guess this will draw around 3-4 cards on average so a bit of extra draw compared to the first version which should compensate for Ashes being terminal.

Phoenix- This version might be a bit stronger but it's still looks weakish early game, but I guess it would help cycling your deck. Also, this version might be too similar to den of sins. The current Phoenix/ashes design might make it to comparable/similar to den of sins and might not be strong enough for the ashes downside. What if you lower the strength level of Phoenix and higher the strength level of ashes? Then again keeping the burst of power in the phoenix half is not a bad idea just not a huge fan of the current effect.

Random bad card idea-
Name - Phoenix
Type - Action/Night
Cost- 6
Effect- If it's your night phase, take three Coin Tokens. Otherwise, discard and exchange this for an ashes. If you do, discard your hand and Take 1 VP for each card discarded.

Name - Ashes
Type - Action
Cost - 0
Cost - +1 Card +1 Action _________ When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Phoenix. If you do, gain two Copper.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2018, 03:01:57 am »
+1

Also, this version might be too similar to den of sins.
Coming to think of it, Phoenix is actually more like terminal draw as you have to spend an Action for Ashes later. So probably more similar to Tactician than Den of Sins or Lab variants in general.


Name - Phoenix
Type - Action/Night
Cost- 6
Effect- If it's your night phase, take three Coin Tokens. Otherwise, discard and exchange this for an ashes. If you do, discard your hand and Take 1 VP for each card discarded.

Name - Ashes
Type - Action
Cost - 0
Cost - +1 Card +1 Action _________ When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Phoenix. If you do, gain two Copper.
I guess you wanted to imply a choice between Coin and VP tokens with Phoenix, i.e. "... you may take 3 Coin tokens. Otherwise ...". The simple problem is that a non-terminal 6 that takes 3 Coin tokens might be good enough on its own (compare with Merchant Guild) such that the second option will rarely be taken. So choice and exchange are not the best mechanics to mix.
Furthermore I'd be very careful with non-terminal discarding for VPs. I have a similar card in my set, Efreet, but at least it is tied to having some green in your deck. Copper self-junking might of course be enough of a nerf; hard to tell.
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2018, 02:27:32 pm »
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Also, this version might be too similar to den of sins.
Coming to think of it, Phoenix is actually more like terminal draw as you have to spend an Action for Ashes later. So probably more similar to Tactician than Den of Sins or Lab variants in general.


Name - Phoenix
Type - Action/Night
Cost- 6
Effect- If it's your night phase, take three Coin Tokens. Otherwise, discard and exchange this for an ashes. If you do, discard your hand and Take 1 VP for each card discarded.

Name - Ashes
Type - Action
Cost - 0
Cost - +1 Card +1 Action _________ When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Phoenix. If you do, gain two Copper.
I guess you wanted to imply a choice between Coin and VP tokens with Phoenix, i.e. "... you may take 3 Coin tokens. Otherwise ...". The simple problem is that a non-terminal 6 that takes 3 Coin tokens might be good enough on its own (compare with Merchant Guild) such that the second option will rarely be taken. So choice and exchange are not the best mechanics to mix.
Furthermore I'd be very careful with non-terminal discarding for VPs. I have a similar card in my set, Efreet, but at least it is tied to having some green in your deck. Copper self-junking might of course be enough of a nerf; hard to tell.

I see your Phoenix has being a more powerful "Den of sins" clone with ashes as a downside. Having to play ashes and wait another cycle to play Phoenix again seems like such a huge downside to me.

In contrast to a normal gold I don't think 3 delayed coin tokens would be that powerful for 6. But the versatile nature of coin tokens could make it extremely strong, I guess. Honestly, I think the VP gain effect on this Phoenix is bonkers which is why I called it a bad card idea.

Edit: Not sure if you noticed, to use the VP part of this Phoenix you need to play it as a Terminal action (I copied werewolf's wording).

Name- ?
Type- Night
Cost - 6
Effect- Take 3 coin tokens. This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).

Would ^that be too strong? I don't know...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 02:34:09 pm by loneXolf »
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2018, 07:52:14 am »
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Name- ?
Type- Night
Cost - 6
Effect- Take 3 coin tokens. This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).

Would ^that be too strong? I don't know...
Pretty sure it is. It is like Summoning (of course this is not technically possible) something which is better than a Gold.
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Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2018, 09:51:10 am »
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Name- ?
Type- Night
Cost - 6
Effect- Take 3 coin tokens. This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).

Would ^that be too strong? I don't know...
Pretty sure it is. It is like Summoning (of course this is not technically possible) something which is better than a Gold.

I think it'd be fine if it didn't gain to hand. The drawback over Gold is that you don't get to spend the Coin tokens straight away because you get them in night, but gaining to hand kind of negates that downside.
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2018, 11:49:50 am »
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Name- ?
Type- Night
Cost - 6
Effect- Take 3 coin tokens. This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).

Would ^that be too strong? I don't know...
Pretty sure it is. It is like Summoning (of course this is not technically possible) something which is better than a Gold.

I think it'd be fine if it didn't gain to hand. The drawback over Gold is that you don't get to spend the Coin tokens straight away because you get them in night, but gaining to hand kind of negates that downside.

Yeah making the first Phoenix play much quicker than a first gold player seems nuts. But, Den of sins and ghost town sorta do the same thing, but it seems more ridiculous with coin tokens. Maybe it could work as a swamp hag (without the attack of course), but I think it a slight nerf won't fix the problem.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2018, 01:17:15 pm »
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Raider with hand-gain but without the attack would probably be too strong as well but perhaps it'd be OK.
Coin tokens is totally crazy though.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2018, 03:00:41 pm »
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I can't comment much about balance, but these cards are very creative and flavourful. Nice work.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2018, 06:32:15 pm »
+1

Some changes and new cards:



I settled on the Cornucopia-esque version and added an extra Buy to Phoenix.





Nothing fancy, just a one-shot that distributes Blackmails. Getting a Boon seems like a natural thing for a one-shot.





I need a village for my set so here it is. Like Extortioners is another way to spread Blackmails this is another way to get Traitors into the game. It is a bit like Blessed Village and Ill-Gotten Gains.
I tried to make the village effect non-standard because $4 for a village that junks when you gain it seemed too strong. Now it is either a Necropolis or a village that can draw from the discard pile and in case the opponents play BM or don't play a Vice Town during their turns you get an auto-Village next turn via Commanding (like when it gets used with Conjuration there is only one Commanding in play).

It looks like this is a way to emulate conditional durations (that can never occur or endure for more than just 1 turn) with the vanilla States. Of course there is also similar stuff you could do, e.g. you could take Beguild, i.e. the +1 Card State, when you gain a card such that the on-gain bonus becomes something like a conditional half Exploration.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2018, 09:26:17 am »
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Re: Vicetown Just wondering where Traitors are listed.  I'm not a fan of attack like effects which cant be avoided as it can just lead to a race for that effect.
On a four cost card this also is worsened by Workshop variants. Could you change gain to buy?

The other aspects of the card I really like. Choosing the card from your discard pile is different enough to drawing a card and rewards playing smarter.

I'd love it if this was a card that cost 3 debt and lost the traitor aspect. It might be weaker than average but would still be situationally stronger than village.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2018, 02:14:28 pm »
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Re: Vicetown Just wondering where Traitors are listed.  I'm not a fan of attack like effects which cant be avoided as it can just lead to a race for that effect.
On a four cost card this also is worsened by Workshop variants. Could you change gain to buy?
Traitors are listed in the first post.
IGG is also on gain and alleviated by its high cost. Unlike IGG Vice Town is, as you rightly pointed out, also gainable via Workshop variants and not just by Remodel variants, Artisan and Vampire. But the junk is also not as nasty as Curses; all Traitors are cantrips with something bad on top of that (topdecking, discarding, taking Debt, negative VPs.)

Obviously I want a card with a similar power level as IGG, i.e. not a card which will always be bought. As Vice Town is quite often a Necropolis I doubt that it is too strong. Also, no pile-driving like with IGG as Traitors are non-Supply cards.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2018, 06:14:37 pm »
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Tah for the link. While not as bad as curses I would rate these worse than ruins at first glance. In many kingdoms this will be the sinkhole players chase each other down IMO. Also not a fan of cards with same names and different abilities. My eyes ainst so good

Vicetown will only usually be a necropolis if players play it like a village - to draw their entire deck. It has the potential to deflect a discard attack by rescuing that crucial card or find that essential piece and all this isn't even measuring Command ( which you admittedly might lose by your next turn but also might ot).
Its very much your card but there's enough complexity t drop Traitors and make a cheaper still interesting card IMO.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2018, 05:30:23 am »
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Tah for the link. While not as bad as curses I would rate these worse than ruins at first glance. In many kingdoms this will be the sinkhole players chase each other down IMO.
I fail to see how any Traitor (except for Heretic due to its negative VPs) can be worse than a Ruins. It is not like you are forced to play them and a cantrip that topdecks or discards is usually better than a dead card.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2018, 08:22:49 am »
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Some either gain you a poor card when trashed or have a negative effect when gained (including in one case gaining a ruins). That seems clearly worse.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2018, 08:29:42 am »
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Note that due to the different effects for cards of the same name its hard to indicate which ones I mean but a number of all the differently named cards are worse than ruins IMO. A ruins is just a lame action. They dont come with a need to put your hand on your deck when trashed or 2 debt when gained. Or a copper when trashed. Or so on.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2018, 04:08:33 pm »
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True that, I forgot about the on-gain and on-trash effects. I won't make them weaker though, on average they are less severe than Curses and Ruins because all of them are cantrips.
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WQB

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2018, 05:53:13 am »
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Holunder9, great cards! IŽd love to play with them!  :)
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2018, 08:10:11 am »
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Holunder9, great cards! IŽd love to play with them!  :)
Thanks man.

Here are some cards that play with with the Conjuration States. They are more conceptual than the other ones and more about finding out whether the basic idea works or not:





A Silver+ for $4 is always a dubious notion. I think it works here though because the price of perhaps getting an extra Buy next turn (and with an even bigger perhaps, in future turns) is to play this as a Copper.





Kind of a reverse Relic. The buying of this will start something like a war of attrition: you don't really want that lousy Silver for $5 but you have to get it lest the other player gets a free Lab every turn.





Here we have something like an on-gain Treasury but this time you don't have to pay "too much" for a Silver but pay "too little" for a mere one-shot Fugitive to stop your opponent's Treasury for $2.
On-gain creates another mini-game though, under normal circumstances (i.e. no gainers and Remodel variants) you don't want to gain the 9th card (or 8th card in a 3P game) of the pile because then another player could empty the pile and get a safe Treasury for $2. No idea whether this is fun though.





This is unrelated to the Conjuration States and, once again, about Gazbag's great freezing mechanic.
The pile only contains 5 cards with Extinction being the 6th card underneath the 5 Mammoths. Like with Philosophers you don't want your opponent to get the last Mammoth.

About the duration effect, my Nightwatch Ranger is to Fugitive what Mammoth is to Asper's Scientist. Scientist  is based on Storyteller's idea of converting coins into cards. With Storyteller you convert existing Coins whereas with Scientist you backload  the payment.
The entire idea could be totally broken, it is a card which needs quite some playtesting.
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