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Author Topic: Holunder's cards  (Read 4497 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2018, 11:04:22 pm »
0

On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5).
I tried to nerf it via making the 2 VPs conditional on no Silvers in your deck instead of the more or less automatic 2VPs (1VP per empty pile with Provinces and Owls being empty in most games) of the first version but it still feels, as you said, like something between $4 and $5. Perhaps undoing the Victory card and making it a pure Baker-Scout thing?
I like the victory part. There aren't any official night-victory cards. You could easily make it cost $5. Then you can return the VP to how it was originally, and maybe say "You may put any victory and night cards into your hand."
(Having no silvers could occasionally be easier than having more than one empty pile, but the no-silver condition is weird.)
OTOH, I also like that it costs less than $5, so it may be worth dropping the VP to keep it at $4.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 02:13:12 am »
+1

On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5).
I tried to nerf it via making the 2 VPs conditional on no Silvers in your deck instead of the more or less automatic 2VPs (1VP per empty pile with Provinces and Owls being empty in most games) of the first version but it still feels, as you said, like something between $4 and $5. Perhaps undoing the Victory card and making it a pure Baker-Scout thing?
I like the victory part. There aren't any official night-victory cards. You could easily make it cost $5. Then you can return the VP to how it was originally, and maybe say "You may put any victory and night cards into your hand."
(Having no silvers could occasionally be easier than having more than one empty pile, but the no-silver condition is weird.)
OTOH, I also like that it costs less than $5, so it may be worth dropping the VP to keep it at $4.
I am fixated on a price of $4 as the entire thing with the Heirloom exists to make this a more attractive opener. So I probably have to get rid of the VP part if I wanna salvage the idea or start from scratch. Owls scout for Night cards anyway so it being a Victory c ard doesn't feel all that organic.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 03:21:00 pm »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2018, 01:27:33 am »
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I'm in for trashing a Magic Lamp to get 1 Djinn per player, moving Efreet to outtakes or redesign limbo.

Do what's right for the card.   The other card can't be so cool to make such sacrifices.

I mean not that I understand what is interesting about a 6$ nonterminal with a buy restriction reading "You need to have a specific power 5 terminal in play to buy this", that's pretty close to "Feodum for Gold" on the list of things-you-wanted-to-do-anyway. 
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2018, 01:41:11 am »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 11:33:10 am »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
Ok.  That happens though.  So it's a valid point.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2018, 12:43:10 pm »
+1

"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
Ok.  That happens though.  So it's a valid point.
Sure, but I don't see any actual rule problems. The only seemingly relevant case is hitting a Duchy in the late game in the absence of any other 5s in the Kingdom which leads to the same thing as Swindler hitting a Shelter: the attacked player trashes the card but gains nothing.



About Djinn/Efreet, thanks for all the tips. I will have to test these new versions as well as the old version before I settle on anything (which is probably getting rid of the idea altogether):



The problems are obvious: playing for Magic Lamp and the 3 Wishes might be better than going for Djinn. While gaining Efreets was initially too hard it might be too easy now (not at least because you don't have to go for it via the Djinn path).
About the Efreet wording, I know that it is awkward but I did not find a technically correct way to word it that did not sound convoluted.
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Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2018, 01:04:54 pm »
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Hmm Djinn just seems like a more boring Leprechaun to me. You know like a hard to get Wish gainer but it's a bit more luck based whether you get $5 with a Magic Lamp soon enough and it doesn't have any other use.

Efreet is a bit odd, I guess your supposed to store up victories with it and then discard them all for a bunch of vp? The abilities don't really seem connected apart from that. It's basically just a weird unlimited Gear kinda thing that randomly gets destroyed by Militias?
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2018, 01:34:28 pm »
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I think Djinn is fine, but it suffers a lot from the fact that Pottery exists (that's the name, right? I'm out of touch). For if I was to suggest a way to improve it, it would be by just making the card cost 6$, at which point it's a Pottery that trades fast access to the gained cards with the ability to gain copies of itself, and one type of flexibility with another. Maybe it could just cost 5$ with some beneficial player interaction instead of the gain restriction? Like setting aside a Boon (that doesn't give $) at the start, which it always gives oto the other players on gain? Or just a random Boon to save on words.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2018, 01:39:43 pm »
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Hmm Djinn just seems like a more boring Leprechaun to me. You know like a hard to get Wish gainer but it's a bit more luck based whether you get $5 with a Magic Lamp soon enough and it doesn't have any other use.

Efreet is a bit odd, I guess your supposed to store up victories with it and then discard them all for a bunch of vp? The abilities don't really seem connected apart from that. It's basically just a weird unlimited Gear kinda thing that randomly gets destroyed by Militias?
Yeah, discard Victory cards for VPs and transfering other cards into the next turn is the main purpose and you are totally right that the card is weak in the presence of handsize attacks.
I don't see the oddity or weirdness. There is some self-synergy if you use the second option and in the next turn the first option but you can also ignore the first option and mainly use it for card transfer.

The problem I see though is that the card might be too strong in alt-VP or draw-your-deck engines. Nonterminal VP generation should either be conditional (Groundskeeper) or appear late enough in the game to not become dominant (Plunder). With Efreet you could green a bit but then stop and play your Efreet engine without having any incentive to end the game.
I tried to reign that in via making the card hard to gain but only playtesting will show whether the restriction is severe enough to not make this a game-breaking powerhouse.


I think Djinn is fine, but it suffers a lot from the fact that Pottery exists (that's the name, right? I'm out of touch). For if I was to suggest a way to improve it, it would be by just making the card cost 6$, at which point it's a Pottery that trades fast access to the gained cards with the ability to gain copies of itself, and one type of flexibility with another. Maybe it could just cost 5$ with some beneficial player interaction instead of the gain restriction? Like setting aside a Boon (that doesn't give $) at the start, which it always gives oto the other players on gain? Or just a random Boon to save on words.
Yeah, it is (too?) similar to Artisan. As the origin of the card is thematic I want to connect it with Magic Lamp. Without that thematic weight what you suggest could of course lead to a mechanically sounder card.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 03:26:02 am »
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To add two more to that pile of my cents, I feel that theme is a great way to start developing a card (giving you a source of inspiration), but it's not a great idea to enforce it at the cost of mechanics (in Dominion and similar games, that is). If you were to think that a fix that ignores the lamp makes for a more sound card, just give it another name. You can still use that name as an inspiration for yet another card (although admittedly I have a hard timme thinking of a Djinn-named card that doesn't use Wishes at all).

Jack Rudd

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 08:04:49 am »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
That's not the point; the point is what happens if I Swindle your $5 card and ask you to take a Djinn in response? Swindler allows me to do that, because Djinn is a $5 card in the Supply; Djinn tells you you can't do that because you can't gain it without a Magic Lamp in play. So the logical conclusion is probably that I swindle your $5 card into nothing, which is not a wanted interaction.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 01:13:44 pm »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
That's not the point; the point is what happens if I Swindle your $5 card and ask you to take a Djinn in response? Swindler allows me to do that, because Djinn is a $5 card in the Supply; Djinn tells you you can't do that because you can't gain it without a Magic Lamp in play. So the logical conclusion is probably that I swindle your $5 card into nothing, which is not a wanted interaction.
Now I get your point. But it is still not an issue. Gain restrictions on Supply cards are new so there are no official rules concerning the order.
Naturally you should check Djinn's "gainability" first before you gain it. You should not be able to gain Djinn in any way, check for the gain condition afterwards and then somehow retroactively undo the gain.
So the Swindler player would choose Djinn as target but the card says that it is not gainable and the attacker would have to choose a different card just like he'd have to choose Copper once the Curse pile is empty when he hits a 0.

It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction. You cannot spend 6 Coin and a Buy on Grand Market, only then check for whether you can buy GM or not, then undo the buy with your resources being gone (not that anybody would do that). The game rather says that it is not possible to buy GM BEFORE you buy it just like the game would say that Djinn cannot be gained BEFORE the Swindler player chooses Djinn.

Djinn is basically a borderline Supply / non-Supply card as you can only gain it via a specific way. If you want to you can probably rephrase the card as a non-Supply card with the only way to gain it being written on the card instead of on the gainer as it is usually the case with non-Supply cards.
I actually thought about making Djinn and Efreets non-Supply cards when I came up with them but it seemed rule-wise more confusing than clarifying.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2018, 03:20:22 pm »
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It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction.
Well, the key difference between Gaining and Buying - and what allows Grand Market's buy restriction to exist at all - is that buying is always an active choice on the part of the player. You can't be forced into Buying a card by some other effect.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2018, 04:33:09 pm »
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It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction.
Well, the key difference between Gaining and Buying - and what allows Grand Market's buy restriction to exist at all - is that buying is always an active choice on the part of the player. You can't be forced into Buying a card by some other effect.
Game mechanics care little about whether you "actively" buy a card while you are in your Buy phase or whether you "passively" make a choice about what cards the other players gain while you play Swindler. From a mechanical point of view these adjectives are irrelevant and both situations are identical: the game waits for player input.

In both cases you might want to do something but you cannot do it because Grand Market respectively Djinn forbid it.
This isn't complicated and there is no rule issue unless you are set on creating one. Of course the the wording can be improved and while I did not see how Djinn/Efreet might very well be better implemented as non-Supply cards. But that's the least issue these cards have.
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Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2018, 04:40:51 pm »
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It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction.
Well, the key difference between Gaining and Buying - and what allows Grand Market's buy restriction to exist at all - is that buying is always an active choice on the part of the player. You can't be forced into Buying a card by some other effect.
Game mechanics care little about whether you "actively" buy a card while you are in your Buy phase or whether you "passively" make a choice about what cards the other players gain while you play Swindler. From a mechanical point of view these adjectives are irrelevant and both situations are identical: the game waits for player input.

In both cases you might want to do something but you cannot do it because Grand Market respectively Djinn forbid it.
This isn't complicated and there is no rule issue unless you are set on creating one. Of course the the wording can be improved and while I did not see how Djinn/Efreet might very well be better implemented as non-Supply cards. But that's the least issue these cards have.

I'm no rules expert but Smugglers with an empty pile leads me to believe that you would be able to choose Djinn with Swindler and have your opponent gain nothing. I'm not sure whether that's actually a problem though.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2018, 08:10:03 pm »
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If you can even mount an argument about it, and the card is in the design phase, you should reword it so it is abundantly clear.  That's part of good, quality game design.  It doesn't matter if players can make a correct, unambiguous decision using a full and complete understanding of the official rules (well, you are even worse off if they can't, but that's not "the bar").  Where possible, you should make the card so clear no one asks questions.

"You can't buy this unless you have a Magic Lamp in play.  When you gain this, trash all Magic Lamps from play" is the same number of words and has the same exact play aside from Border Village, Storyteller, Black Market, Horn of Plenty and Haggler, which is a 5 card list but I'm pretty sure is in single digit percentage of boards.

That's another thing, you should make it abundantly clear whether you trash all Magic Lamps from play, or just one.  "Trash Magic Lamp" is like, only one has ever existed or will exist so it doesn't matter.

Ok, I thought of the night cards too, Vampire and Changeling.  The other option has some word cost, "When you gain this, trash it if you don't have a Magic Lamp in play".  But it works with the rules more gracefully.

Or if you want to be super Melvin (is Melvin the name for people that like dovetailed mechanics? Vorthos vs. Melvin I think it's called)  "When you gain this, trash it or a Magic Lamp you have in play."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:19:39 pm by popsofctown »
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2018, 09:18:58 am »
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"You can't buy this unless you have a Magic Lamp in play.  When you gain this, trash all Magic Lamps from play" is the same number of words and has the same exact play aside from Border Village, Storyteller, Black Market, Horn of Plenty and Haggler, which is a 5 card list but I'm pretty sure is in single digit percentage of boards.
Not really. You forgot Vampire, Artisan, Altar, all Remodel variants and above all Wishes which implies that Djinn can indirectly gain itself. That's the last thing I want Djinn to be as it would be obviously broken (there is a reason direct gainers like Artisan, Vampire cannot gain themselves).
As I already said, I am open for better wording but not if it completly changes the way the card is supposed to work.

Djinn should come out of the bottle and if this is too thematic and cannot be made to work mechanically (which is my main worry) the idea will land in the trash.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2018, 11:48:05 pm »
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Altar + Storyteller + Djinn is a 3 card specified board.  Magic Lamp is hard to get in play before an Action gainer is played since it's a Treasure.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2018, 02:47:28 am »
+2

Djinn should come out of the bottle and if this is too thematic and cannot be made to work mechanically (which is my main worry) the idea will land in the trash.

Story time: This is exactly the theme behind my Homunculus trashing a Potion on gain. Just that it didn't have that theme originally. I renamed the card when I thought that the Potion thing would be the best way to solve its issues, which is pretty much what I said about theme being something you should be willing to change if it makes you end up with a better card. Theme is nice, but if theme is the only reason you want to do a card, I'm not sure it's such a great fit for Dominion. It's not a very thematic game.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2018, 06:09:58 am »
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Altar + Storyteller + Djinn is a 3 card specified board.  Magic Lamp is hard to get in play before an Action gainer is played since it's a Treasure.
You seem to be confused. Your suggested Buy restriction would not prevent Djinn from being gained via Altar or Wishes or any other gainer which is why it does not work.

Theme is nice, but if theme is the only reason you want to do a card, I'm not sure it's such a great fit for Dominion. It's not a very thematic game.
That's why I will get rid of the idea if it doesn't work. Having slightly ambiguous rules (I really don't see the unclear cases and neither did my playing group in the two games in whcih I tried it so far but then again I am no rules expert) is not the issue of the card though.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2018, 06:13:43 am »
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Oh, derp.  True.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2018, 06:17:52 am »
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If the card is salvageable, which I seriously doubt after the two games, I am going to try to word it as non-Supply card. Because as you all said, there is definitely something fishy about the current wording.
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faust

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2018, 07:27:38 am »
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"You can't buy this unless you have a Magic Lamp in play.  When you gain this, trash all Magic Lamps from play" is the same number of words and has the same exact play aside from Border Village, Storyteller, Black Market, Horn of Plenty and Haggler, which is a 5 card list but I'm pretty sure is in single digit percentage of boards.
Not really. You forgot Vampire, Artisan, Altar, all Remodel variants and above all Wishes which implies that Djinn can indirectly gain itself. That's the last thing I want Djinn to be as it would be obviously broken (there is a reason direct gainers like Artisan, Vampire cannot gain themselves).
As I already said, I am open for better wording but not if it completly changes the way the card is supposed to work.

Djinn should come out of the bottle and if this is too thematic and cannot be made to work mechanically (which is my main worry) the idea will land in the trash.

How about: "When you gain this during your turn, if you have no Magic Lamp in play, return it to the supply." Fixes Swindler issues while keeping with the desired mechanic. The only issue that it might still have is some lose-track stuff that would prevent it from being returned to the supply.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2018, 10:02:28 am »
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Time for some new cards.  All of them thematically or mechanically inspired by other fan card designers.



The general idea for Phoenix/Ashes is by volfied. Phoenix is a strong card with the downside that it is weak in the opening and that you can only play it infrequently. This could also be implemented via the Journey token but it makes no thematic sense as opposed to the Phoenix dying and being reborn thing. Phoenix could be too similar to Den of Sins.






The lady asked for some Nightwatch cards after we first played with Night cards so here they are.
They are directly inspired by Gazbag's freeze mechanism . The Season mechanic is by Asper and Cookielord.
White Walker is a variant of Yeti, Builder is the first version of Frost Spirit and Steward is Cold Storage.
There are 3 of each Brother and 6 White Walkers, shuffled together such that 3 Brothers are on top so the entire thing could be too random. I tried to make all cards versatile and fairly strong for their price to avoid that a bad card will prevent that the cards beneath it will see the sunlight.
Dragonglass Dagger is more of an afterthought, it is a Venture variant that can change the opening a bit like Doctor.

About the actual cards, Builder is a temporary pseudo-trasher, Ranger makes all Action cards next turn additional Fugitives and defends against the Walkers, Steward gains 5s that come into your deck a bit later, White Walker is a never-missing pseudo-trashing attack with a Rogue-like gain-from-freeze-limbo option.

I also used pacovf's suggestion for freeze as new keyword:

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