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Author Topic: Holunder's cards  (Read 6676 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2018, 08:25:48 am »
0

Dead Marshes as shown above can't work. It's got all too much text on it.
Non sequitur, functionality and amount of text are unrelated.
But if you have a better way to implement this than Kudasai (I owe the card to him, it is his great wording) that uses less text I am all ears.

Quote
Also, if you reduce the cost of cards by e.g. Bridge, you can gain up to all of them...
True that. But I don't mind that cost reducers allow you to empty the Estate pile, it is just one interaction and as you frequently pointed out, the one-shot is rather weak so it situationally being strong is a plus in my books.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2018, 09:51:18 am »
0

Dead Marshes as shown above can't work. It's got all too much text on it.
Non sequitur, functionality and amount of text are unrelated.
But if you have a better way to implement this than Kudasai (I owe the card to him, it is his great wording) that uses less text I am all ears.

Call it a non sequitur if you will, but the card is broken and overly complex, which in my book is just as good. The wording length just signals it.

Being able to just gain the entire Estate pile and two Duchies after a cost reduction of 2$ is broken. Reduce the cost by 3 and you can get all Estates, a Province and a Duchy. Reduce it by 4 and you can gain all Estates and two Provinces. At 5 you insta-win - or rather, you instantly get more than half the points in the game and now your opponent has to empty another pile to make this awful charade of a game end. Determining the game's winner before its end by being the first player to get 5 Highways in play and drawing this card is simply not a lot of fun. It's a bug, not a feature.

Also, what happened to the concern of buying one cheaper and one expensively later? This doesn't address this at all. It just punishes you for buying an expensive one and a cheaper one later. Here's a suggestion: Expend the tokens on playing the card - it's a one-shot, after all. Sure, you can overpay 2 now and 2 later, and then use up all 4 at once, but where's the problem with that?

Quote
Trash this and remove any number of tokens from your Marshes Mat. Choose two Victory cards in the supply that together cost up to 8$ + 1$ per token removed, and gain them.
---
When you buy this, you may overpay for it, to put a token on your Marsh Mat per $ overpaid.

All of this said, there's still the question why anyone would want to overpay for any version of this. When am I so desperate for points that I want to gain an Estate, but also have so much time that I'd rather pay for it now and get it a shuffle later? When do I seriously want to have two Duchies over a Province outside of Duke games? The applications of the overpay are extremely narrow. Any alt-VP costing less than 5 doesn't need the overpay, and any costing more would probably be easier to get by buying the copies individually.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2018, 12:28:33 pm »
0

Cool, so the card is too weak and too strong at the same time.  8)
Seriously dude, I already told that I view it as a wacky idea so it being overpowered with Highway is really my last worry.

About your question about why anybody would overpay for this, you don't seem to get the basic idea of the card although it was your suggestion: make it more flexible such that it is decent for Province gaining as well as Alt-VP.
You can e.g. pay 5 to later gain a Province, pay 6 to gain 2 Duchies/Dukes or pay 7 for 3 Gardens. So contrary to your claim it seems to be pretty decent with Alt-VP wherea you normally just get one Duke when you hit 7.

I totally agree that the card is wonky but not because it has a few more words than the average Dominion card. The amount of text isn't correlated with card complexity by the way. If Dominion featured card drafting like Mystic Vale this could be done with virtually no text and would then appear as the simple thing that it is: 5 for 8, 6 for 10, 7 for 12, etc.

Kudasai's wording does indeed have the problem that the info is not stored on individual cards yet applies to the entire pile (we already discussed this previously) which isn't a big thing with Victory cards as you will mostly go for the same values each time you buy Dead Marshes anyway.
Your version has several problems. First of all, it clearly needs a 1:2, not a 1:1 ratio. Second, your version is restricted to gaining 2 cards which fixes the Highway issue but makes the card significantly weaker with Alt-VP. Third, your version is more about accumulating and removing tokens which might totally be a thing but doesn't really have to do anything with what I am aiming for which is using the overpay and token mechanism to make the card flexible without having to print out 36 Victory cards and introducing some weird rules that deals with the pile size of a "Hydra" pile (like, there is only the base 5-8 card in the SuUpply and when you overpay for it you put it into card nirvana and instead gain a 6-10 or which is a non-Supply card) which was my first idea until Kudasai came along with something far better.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2018, 12:51:13 pm »
+1

...Why do I get the impression I know you already?

heron

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #129 on: June 29, 2018, 11:14:56 pm »
0

I feel like 4 provinces for $17 is too good.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2018, 04:59:17 am »
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I feel like 4 provinces for $17 is too good.
Without Duration draw the additional cost is that your next turn will be dead (or in the Estates pile emptying that Asper pointed out, your next two turns) but I agree that that 17 and a dead turn for 4 Provinces might be too good.
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heron

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #131 on: June 30, 2018, 04:05:11 pm »
+1

I feel like 4 provinces for $17 is too good.
Without Duration draw the additional cost is that your next turn will be dead (or in the Estates pile emptying that Asper pointed out, your next two turns) but I agree that that 17 and a dead turn for 4 Provinces might be too good.

It doesn't really matter that your next turn is dead when you just gained the last four provinces.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #132 on: July 01, 2018, 07:15:55 am »
0

I feel like 4 provinces for $17 is too good.
Without Duration draw the additional cost is that your next turn will be dead (or in the Estates pile emptying that Asper pointed out, your next two turns) but I agree that that 17 and a dead turn for 4 Provinces might be too good.

It doesn't really matter that your next turn is dead when you just gained the last four provinces.
True that but if it is the first 4 Provinces it is a significant cost. In a 2P game in which the other player also has a Dead Marshes with 12 tokens playing Dead Marshes it could even be a severe mistake if your play of Dead Marshes allows the other player to finish the game.
But I totally agree with your general point that the values of this card are off and need further work.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #133 on: July 01, 2018, 08:29:19 am »
0

I'd much rather buy Dominate if I have 17 than this.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2018, 07:23:14 am »
0



Wanna sift through or trash some junk? Here is the guy for it. He can also set up a Province for your Tournament or dig for a Night card. Overall a versatile card that is obviously inspired by Settlers.
It could be too strong for $2 yet too weak for $3.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2018, 07:32:44 am »
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Astrologer seems fine for 2$, certainly not too strong. At the end of the day, the card is very situational. It supports trashing, but only non-Treasure trashing, and only if you have a discard pile. And it keeps Victory cards out of the shuffle, but only if you are going to shuffle this turn. Like Pearl Diver, it benefits from being better than nothing for a price point where you often can't pick up anything else, and that's good enough often enough. I wouldn't buy it for 3$,except on boards where I need specific Victory cards in hand, eg. Baron, Tournament or Forge, or where handsize plays a role, eg. Artificer.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2018, 08:02:52 am »
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I doubt that is is Pearl Diver level weak and more similar in strength to Patrician or Vagrant. Being able to feed your sifters or trashers some non-Copper junk can sometimes be a thing.
I mainly worried about Tournament games becoming even more luck-dependent and this being too often a Laboratory in games with Den of Sin (which is the only Night card that you want en masse besides Werewolf, a card that cannot be targeted by Astrologer). But as you said, that is quite situational.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2018, 12:11:41 pm »
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A quick non-terminal draw idea that is related to Storyteller, Den of Sin and Expedition. The whole thing could be implemented via Card tokens or whatever but I prefer a card-shaped thing.
Slightly buffed via gaining Cursed Abbey to hand and via allowing Invocation to draw cards from the discard pile. The latter might make Invocation less automatic, i.e. don't use them immediately but wait until you have something nice in the discard pile at the start of your turn.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 07:13:19 am by Holunder9 »
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Gubump

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2018, 12:25:19 pm »
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Shouldn't Invocation say "This is gained to your Tavern mat instead of your discard pile," since that's what the 2nd edition wording is like?
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #139 on: September 24, 2018, 07:34:05 am »
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While Invocation behaves a bit differently than Experiment I don't think that it is different enough to warrant sticking to it.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2018, 07:47:24 am »
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So Love Letter is on the first glance pretty similar to Flagbearer but plays differently as it triggers on play as opposed to on-gain and on-trash. It is really more of a reverse Relic, a classical Silver 5+ that you want once or twice in your deck whereas Flagbearer is trash that you wanna quickly get rid of (I guess the new term for that is, you want to Recruit him).
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2018, 12:23:01 pm »
+1



MY first hunch is that Renaissance Tokemonger feels too weak without spying and too good with the spying.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2018, 12:39:54 pm »
+5

Wording suggestion:

Quote
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck, then put it in your hand. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Villager
Treasure card, +1 Coffer
Victory card, +1
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #143 on: October 12, 2018, 04:52:58 pm »
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Wording suggestion:

Quote
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck, then put it in your hand. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Villager
Treasure card, +1 Coffer
Victory card, +1
Sure, you can word it like Chariot Race but I noticed in my games that sometimes players internalize that cantrips are cantrips better if they see immediately that the card draws.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #144 on: October 16, 2018, 10:30:46 am »
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This is a card from one of the contests. I never did anything with positive stuff for the other players so here it is. Obviously the other way around, i.e. you get Coffers and they get Villagers, would be bonkers (not to mention that this design space is already more or less covered by Merchant Guild) and the card, like Monastery, wants to gain several cards per turn to be worthwhile.
As I expect the card to be fairly narrow due to the strength of Coffers I added the hand-gaining.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #145 on: October 16, 2018, 10:34:10 am »
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I like it better as Black Cat then Monk. Really cool card.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #146 on: October 16, 2018, 01:35:07 pm »
+1

*Asper plays Posession
*Asper buys a Copper
*Asper plays Black Cat
*Holunder9 buys Travelling Fair
...

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #147 on: October 16, 2018, 02:15:31 pm »
0

Yeah, it is broken with Possession. Gotta live with that.
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Kudasai

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #148 on: October 16, 2018, 04:34:21 pm »
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Yeah, it is broken with Possession. Gotta live with that.

You could add: "If the previous turn wasn't yours, do this any number of times: ..." It's a lot of text to add for just one card interaction, but whole paragraphs have been written in rulebooks to address Possession issues. In that context, maybe this isn't so bad?

I think I'll be adding this to Bivouac to be on the safe side.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 04:36:51 pm by Kudasai »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #149 on: October 16, 2018, 04:45:25 pm »
+1

*Asper plays Posession
*Asper buys a Copper
*Asper plays Black Cat
*Holunder9 buys Travelling Fair
...

Ha. So while I defended the possibility of going infinite with regards to Road and Champion; I agree that this is a bigger issue. The problem is it's way too easy to set up; and doesn't require any particular building to a particular combo. It's simply "in games using this, the first player to play a Possession immediately wins".
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