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Holunder9

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Holunder's cards
« on: January 26, 2018, 05:58:09 am »
+8

Hi folks, been a lurker on this and the German forum and since Nocturne came out I worked on some cards, done with herw's great template.
There are Night cards, Heirlooms, new States and new junk, cards based on offical outtakes (lame!) and cards based on ideas by other fan card designers: Gazbag's freeze mechanic, ThetaSigma12's Landforms and Asper's Edicts:



Blackmail is a new junk card that should feature a different card back to prevent cheating. Racketeer and City Guard are probably gonna be part of either a split pile or a double pile with none covered up by the other and both being in the Supply all the time.
City Guard might be too good as it could easily net a lot of Coin tokens but I expect it to mostly shine in the late part of the game and in alt-VP.





Assassin also features 20 (I don't often play 4P so 20 suffice) unique junk cards. They are supposed to be shuffled together (with the top card of the pile being visible like with Ruins) which might be too random, e.g. in a game without trashers Heretic is very nasty. In general the junk is on the weaker side, they are all cantrips and you can e.g. discard a Turncoat with a Turncoat.
Bribe is based on an outtake and perhaps it works here. The junk is not that bad such that to pass or not to pass the Bribe sometimes (hopefully!) becomes a real decision.





These are just "vanilla" states which, like Lost in the Woods, are singular and wander between player. The more interesting part of Conjuration should be that kind of bidding game. The mechanic is directly taken from Runewars.





Royal Guard is pretty straightforward and actually came before Conjuration (see above for Protected).





Glacier is a variation of Gazbag's card, taking into account Cookielord's suggestion to make this pure green which could lead to more interesting alt-VP play.





Black Cat might be too similar to Den of Sin. Card tokens have already been discussed here and should function like a Reserve card that can be called at any time during your turn (or only your Action phase). The Heirloom and on-buy bonus from Forum exist to make it easier to gain several cards per turn.





Ordinary Night cards cannot feature vanilla stuff, hence all the Night-Durations. Tokens are another way and Nightmare and Spectre are shots at that. Nightmare's attack is based on an outtake by DXV. Note that you can only be hit once during your turns which might partially compensate for the non-terminality of the attack. It could of course still be too strong.
Action tokens should function like Coin of the Realm, i.e. you spend them after having played an Action card to get +1 Action.





There are 3 cases with Spectre:
no trashers - this only hexes.
trashers but no other junkers - this is a Copper/Estate junker
trashers and other junkers - universal junker
In my opinion only the last case is potentially problematic but I don't expect the trashing/junking ping-pong that could arise to be worse than multiplayer Ambassador (unlike with Ambassador you gotta play 2 cards).
But of course it has to be tested, increasing the size of the junk pool is a dubious idea.





Like Rats and Magpies those Owls procreate but not that easily. I am not quite happy with the other parts of the card though. It probably has to cost 5 as you can easily make them behave like Bakers with, most likely, 2VPs stacked on top of it. Key is there to make Owl decent in the opening. Putting Victory cards into your hand probably doesn't have many interactions, only Monastery and City Guard comes to mind, so that part could be deleted.





Evocation is another outtake.





Icelands is based on Gazbag's freeze mechanic and ThetaSigma12's Landmarks and might be too boring: you just automatically do it whenever you green and have Coins left. When you thaw the cards the Ice tokens are supposed to return to the Supply, not to Icelands; this rule should be on the card but I felt it was too wordy.





More overpaying with Peace. The Edict mechanic is an invention of Asper and I tried to set the ratio such that there are no 'strictly better' cases but Tunnel-Duchy is the exception.


UPDATE:
Chappy7 pointed out that Spectre is bad if good stuff lands in the trash so I changed Spectre to only junk cards from the trash that cost up to 2.
Owl got nerfed (really?) a different Victory condition (from DXV's Secret History). It is in general a difficult condition to meet but Owl can be used as economy.





Azure Cove
is new and might be too similar to Avanto. Avanto is only non-terminal if you draw into Sauna whereas this is always non-terminal but you have to pay for the Action later.





Another double pile! Like Racketeer and City Guard Djinn and Efreet are constantly in the Supply with 5 per "half-pile" .
This is obviously a thematically inspired idea. Djinn came pretty natural (might be nearly as good as Artisan but it is trickier to gain) whereas Efreet was a card that I came up with some time ago but never liked as it felt too strong. I put it fairly randomly on Efreet as I thought that getting it later in the game would nerf it enough and only then I realized some interesting stuff: you can gain Efreet via Wishes as long as you have a Djinn in play. Efreet makes alt-VP better so wishing for Duchies might be a strategy.
I am still not sure whether Efreet is balanced (I will also test it with "draw 3 cards instead of 5") or any good though.



All of these are thematically or mechanically inspired by other fan card designers.



The general idea for Phoenix/Ashes is by volfied. Phoenix is a strong card with the downside that it is weak in the opening and that you can only play it infrequently. This could also be implemented via the Journey token but it makes no thematic sense as opposed to the Phoenix dying and being reborn thing. Phoenix could be too similar to Den of Sins.






The lady asked for some Nightwatch cards after we first played with Night cards so here they are.
They are directly inspired by Gazbag's freeze mechanism .  The Season mechanic is by Asper and Cookielord.
White Walker is a variant of Yeti, Builder is the first version of Frost Spirit and Steward is Cold Storage.
There are 3 of each Brother and 6 White Walkers, shuffled together such that 3 Brothers are on top so the entire thing could be too random. I tried to make all cards versatile and fairly strong for their price to avoid that a bad card will prevent that the cards beneath it will see the sunlight.
Dragonglass Dagger is more of an afterthought, it is a Venture variant that can change the opening a bit like Doctor.

About the actual cards, Builder is a temporary pseudo-trasher, Ranger makes all Action cards next turn additional Fugitives and defends against the Walkers, Steward gains 5s that come into your deck a bit later, White Walker is a never-missing pseudo-trashing attack with a Rogue-like gain-from-freeze-limbo option.

I also used pacovf's suggestion for freeze as new keyword:

« Last Edit: Today at 10:03:05 am by Holunder9 »
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Andy7675

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 11:56:14 am »
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For owl- You could make it cost 5, but topdeck the other revealed cards instead of discarding them. It would provide a functional purpose beyond simply getting Night cards.
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Chappy7

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 01:01:04 pm »
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While spectre would be particularly nasty with junkers and trashers, it becomes particularly friendly with good trash for benefit cards, or knights, or pillage etc...
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 09:20:14 am »
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Racketeer split pile- I don't really like how blackmail could be infinite debt without trashing or city guard. Maybe scrap city guard, and change blackmail?

Black Cat- neat idea like you said it is very similar to den of sin. I like the idea of multiple cards having the same Heirloom.

Owl- Interesting card seems like it could be strong but if you're using random with every set having the only hits being owl and key could be weak maybe? I would have to see how good owl is a getting coin tokens. Also what's the point of drawing victory cards, if you discard them anyway?

Spectre- Weird card, seems pretty weak if there are no trashers. Sitting order will matter a lot in any games where decent cards are trashed, Pillages, Remodel clones etc. Also in a two player game you could just remodel a province or anything with value to pin your opponent not to play this. 

trivialknot

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 01:55:59 pm »
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Racketeer/City Guard/Blackmail - I don't really like Blackmail, it's too strong.  The reaction mechanic slows things down and has accountability issues.  I don't think a $5/$5 split pile works.  City Guard is interesting, but does seem a bit strong.  I dunno, try it by itself.

Conjuration - This seems like it has issues in the opener.  Like say I open 4/3, so I buy Destructive.  Then it turns out the second player has 5/2, so they buy Destructive, and now I just wasted a turn.

Royal Guard - seems fine, except that if there are no attacks you would never buy it.

Glacier - An interesting card.  Could maybe cost $5.  Something you could do with this card is trash it, which makes it kinda like Distant Lands.

Black Cat - I don't think this is that much like Den of Sin.  It's missing the drawback of staying out for 2 turns.  I think if you have extra gains, Black Cat just draws your deck very reliably, and I think that's too strong.

Nightmare & Spectre - My feeling is that attack cards should pair complex attacks with simple benefits, or complex benefits with simple attacks.  There's nothing about the attacks and benefits here that make them pair particularly well.  Spectre might be dominating in some games, if one player manages to thin down, and plays enough Spectres that the other player can never thin down.  I mean, I guess Ambassador is the same way.

Owl/Key - The ability of Owls to find each other is stronger than Minion.  And it's also cheaper, and can gain copies of itself.

Icelands - I like this idea a lot.  Useful in all kinds of decks, and I find myself wondering if you should green earlier because of it, or take a Duchy over Province.
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Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 02:12:41 pm »
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I like a lot a lot these ideas, I like States in general so here's a few thoughts...

Conjuration: This is a really cool idea, although I think it might be good to have the States start off with some number of tokens on them, at least $5 for the stronger ones and maybe the weaker ones can get away with $0, this is to avoid the massive first player advantage of some of these States or more first player to have their $4/$5 opening hand advantage. I can see situations with Destructive for example where player one gets a 4/3 start and buys Destructive turn 1 for $4 and then player 2 can't get it until they hit $5 and by then player 1 has trashed like 4 cards and is miles ahead. 

Royal Guard: I feel like this should have a different effect than +$2 because it will almost never be bought over Silver in a game without attacks. Moat draws, Lighthouse and Guardian cost $2 and Guardian has the on-gain trick and Champion is Champion so all the other attack blocking things have some use without attacks.

I guess I should talk about the "freeze" things too.

Glacier: Eh, I still think mine is more interesting. I never really got the whole "alt-VP play" thing.

Icelands: 4 tokens per player isn't very much at all. I tried something like this and it wasn't too interesting, maybe there's something there though if you find the right balance.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2018, 04:24:26 am »
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Thanks for all the feedback.  :)

I am not sure that Conjuration will start out with a player spending all of his Coins on it. Say you got a 4/3 opening but there is a decent 2 in the Kingdom. Perhaps you would use your first turn to buy 2 States with only one token on them whereas the second player will start 5/2 and buy a 5.
On the other hand you want to spend a lot on the better States to not have them quickly taken away from you.
I am not sure that the suggestion to have an initial amount of tokens on the States fixes the opening problems unless you make it 6 or more which is too much for the weaker States.
Seems tricky to fix.

While spectre would be particularly nasty with junkers and trashers, it becomes particularly friendly with good trash for benefit cards, or knights, or pillage etc...
Thanks for the tip to make Owl not discard the other cards, I changed it accordingly. The new version makes it harder to dig for for several Owls in a row and is more about preparing a better hand for the next turn.

About Blackmail, while I am far from sure that the concept works, Racketeer and City Guard are both constantly available so you can always defend yourself against Racketeer attacks via buying City Guards.
If the attack is strong and the defense is strong as well, partially due to the decent secondary option, the only issue is that the double pile will empty quickly. This is why I should probably add a rule that the double pile counts as one pile.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2018, 10:05:05 am »
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Hm... I kinda like both the idea of States that only one player can have, and also the idea of States you can buy. I'm just not sure I like the combination, where you take away another player's state. Personally, I'd prefer States that you can get as a reward Tournament-Style, or states where there are enough copies for every player. Like:

Luck, Event, 4$
Once per game: Take Lucky, but not from another player.

Lucky, State
At the end of your cleanup phase, you may put your deck in your discard pile.

I hope I'll get around to posting my take on this soon.

Racketeer and Blackmail remind me a lot of a concept Co0kieL0rd once did.

I kinda like Glacier better than the original one, probably because it's closer to my ideal version that's just VP without any secondary tokens.

Peace looks nice. I like it.

Nightmare, Owl and Spectre lost me while I was reading them due to having too much text on them.

I'm not sure Owl is enough to warrant Key not just being a Treasure that says 0$, take a Coin token.

Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 10:47:58 am »
+1

I kinda like Glacier better than the original one, probably because it's closer to my ideal version that's just VP without any secondary tokens.
This is interesting to me, because I can't understand why another bland Victory card seems to be liked more than a unique Coin token stockpile thing. I hesitate to hijack this topic and just talk about my own card but you posted a variant on it so I assume nobody would mind.

Glacier (my version) actually predated Ice tokens and originally just had the Coin tokens on it and then when I got the idea for Ice tokens I kind of went back and saw that this could use them and everything. I can understand wanting just 1 type of token to be used but by all means, if you play with Glacier, just put Coin tokens on it to save effort. Ice tokens just move lots of words from the card into the rulebook.

Onto the difference in effect of Coin vs VP tokens... Would someone be able to explain to me why they prefer the VP tokens? I just don't get it, In money/sloggy games this just seems like it's way better than Duchy and in an engine game I'd only consider it if I really needed to drag out the game and get enough points to overtake a Province-rush player. It just doesn't seem to add anything new to me. Am I missing something?
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Accatitippi

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 05:11:16 pm »
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Luck, Event, 4$
Once per game: Take Lucky, but not from another player.

This makes me think, can I take Miserable from another player?
I think I can.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 05:28:59 pm »
+1

I kinda like Glacier better than the original one, probably because it's closer to my ideal version that's just VP without any secondary tokens.
This is interesting to me, because I can't understand why another bland Victory card seems to be liked more than a unique Coin token stockpile thing. I hesitate to hijack this topic and just talk about my own card but you posted a variant on it so I assume nobody would mind.

Glacier (my version) actually predated Ice tokens and originally just had the Coin tokens on it and then when I got the idea for Ice tokens I kind of went back and saw that this could use them and everything. I can understand wanting just 1 type of token to be used but by all means, if you play with Glacier, just put Coin tokens on it to save effort. Ice tokens just move lots of words from the card into the rulebook.

Onto the difference in effect of Coin vs VP tokens... Would someone be able to explain to me why they prefer the VP tokens? I just don't get it, In money/sloggy games this just seems like it's way better than Duchy and in an engine game I'd only consider it if I really needed to drag out the game and get enough points to overtake a Province-rush player. It just doesn't seem to add anything new to me. Am I missing something?
You won't buy either Glacier if the game is about to end end. Your Glacier is kind of a auto-baker for 4 turns so you can buy the card early and perhaps later remodel it. My Glacier is pure VP so you want it later but not too late lest the game ends before get all the VPs and remodel it.
This conflict between not wanting to get Glaciers too early as it is only VP and not wanting to get it too late as you cannot get the VPs makes the card, at least to me, potentially interesting.
If there is a Remodel (variant) your card plays easier: just get them relatively early, keep your economy afloat due to the Coin tokens and when the card lands in your deck remodel it.
And if there is no Remodel it is at least 2VPs whereas mine hurts more if it remains an unremodeled Estate.

So without wanting to imply that my version is superior, unique, less bland or whatever (I don't think that either card reinvents the wheel, plenty of alt-VP exist and like your card Mill is about Coins and VPs) - whether you prefer the first or second version seems to depend on what you enjoy more: greening earlier or later, smoother or harsher impacts for your economy respectively safer vs. more risky play.
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 05:55:26 pm »
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The thing is, I think it's interesting to have a VP card that is a bit expensive for the amount of VP it gives, but with the advantage of staying out of your shuffle. It is also interesting to buy a supply of Coin tokens that you receive over several turns. Mixing two interesting abilities gives you less than the sum of its parts, because now neither ability can really shine. You never get one without the other. It's part of what makes Split Piles and Travellers less appealing to me: You never see Fugitive without Teacher, or Hero without Warrior. Of course some of those cards, like Page, could never exist without their counterparts - but the abilities on Glacier can.

I feel that Holunder9's Glacier is closer to staying with one mechanic, because, after all, it's still VP. I'd still prefer a version that gives you something good now, and something bad (the card itself) later, without having this challenge of hitting a sweet spot that's still somehow not all that sweet.

Gazbag

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2018, 12:09:22 pm »
+2

Okay I think it's more of a psychological thing than some kind of strategy or something with the cards that I'm not seeing. It probably would have been better if I'd just made my Glacier be a $6 Copper instead of a Victory, Glacier just wanted to be a weak stop card and I figured a Victory was the most interesting version of that, but apparently it made people think that it being a victory that doesn't enter your deck straight away way the main point of the card.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

Anyway about Peace:

I think it probably needs some kind of limit on how many VP's you can get or something. I think it's just going to make games last for ages because there's no incentive to get Victories when you can just keep building and building and turn all the excess money into VP. It's kind of like Groundskeeper in that way.
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trivialknot

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2018, 07:49:13 pm »
+1

Here's some elaboration on my thoughts on Blackmail.  I say it's too strong because junkers are already on the strong side, and these are clearly worse than curses.  Imagine playing a 3-4 player game, where you end up with ~7 of these, and you can't even afford a City Guard anymore.  There's also the possibility of being pinned, and although I'm not sure how likely it is, it doesn't seem like fun.

And besides that, the reaction upon draw has issues.  Now I need to pay attention every time I draw cards, and players need to be honest about what they're drawing.  As an alternative, you could have a person reveal their hand at the end of their turn, or at the end of the buy phase, and take a debt for each Blackmail.  You could even have it trigger on buy, like Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag, which would eliminate the pinning potential.  Or it could be a cantrip that gives you debt, so it would be junk, but not the kind that takes up space in your deck.

I don't really like the idea of pairing Blackmail with City Guard.  City Guard has its own unrelated ability, which is interesting and strong enough on its own.  If Blackmail needs to always be paired with some defense, then I don't think an unrelated $5-cost is a good choice.  Worth noting that among the canonical cards, most reaction cards are cheap and terminal.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2018, 05:35:57 am »
+2

Here's some elaboration on my thoughts on Blackmail.  I say it's too strong because junkers are already on the strong side, and these are clearly worse than curses.  Imagine playing a 3-4 player game, where you end up with ~7 of these, and you can't even afford a City Guard anymore.  There's also the possibility of being pinned, and although I'm not sure how likely it is, it doesn't seem like fun.

And besides that, the reaction upon draw has issues.  Now I need to pay attention every time I draw cards, and players need to be honest about what they're drawing.  As an alternative, you could have a person reveal their hand at the end of their turn, or at the end of the buy phase, and take a debt for each Blackmail.  You could even have it trigger on buy, like Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag, which would eliminate the pinning potential.  Or it could be a cantrip that gives you debt, so it would be junk, but not the kind that takes up space in your deck.

I don't really like the idea of pairing Blackmail with City Guard.  City Guard has its own unrelated ability, which is interesting and strong enough on its own.  If Blackmail needs to always be paired with some defense, then I don't think an unrelated $5-cost is a good choice.  Worth noting that among the canonical cards, most reaction cards are cheap and terminal.
You are totally right that Blackmail can become extremly nasty which might break its back in playtesting.
You noted that City Guard is strong if you use it for the non-defensive option and this is an intentional design choice to make people buy City Guard prophylactically in the absence of other trashers respectively buy City Guard before you buy Racketeer. Even if nobody goes for Racketeer the card is decent whereas e.g. Moat only becomes OK with enough village support.
About the cheating, different backs easily prevent that. Plus honest folks in your gaming group.



Some changes and a new card:

Chappy7 pointed out that Spectre is bad if good stuff lands in the trash so I changed Spectre to only junk cards from the trash that cost up to 2.
Owl got nerfed (really?) a different Victory condition (from DXV's Secret History). It is in general a difficult condition to meet but Owl can be used as economy.



Azure Cove
is new and might be too similar to Avanto. Avanto is only non-terminal if you draw into Sauna whereas this is always non-terminal but you have to pay for the Action later.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 02:35:22 am by Holunder9 »
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Asper

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2018, 07:51:24 am »
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Minor thing: It's this order:
+Cards
+Actions
+Buy
+Coin

Azure Cove reminds me of my Hunter, just less complex - it looks balanced to me.

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2018, 05:31:33 pm »
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Some of these, I really really like.  The bribe attack and the Duration-smithy the most.

Some of them I dislike for reasons I dislike certain official cards (Fool, Cursed Village) so what can I say
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2018, 06:05:09 pm »
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Azure Cove seems very strong to me. It's basically a Smithy that you don't have to line up with your Villages, I know that doesn't sound like much, but the flexibility and consistency it gives is immense. In a money deck you can't draw dead actions with it, I guess it's similar to Werewolf in that situation. You can do other things like playing a bunch at once and then letting them back into your deck on off turns - sort of like a Tactician type thing. You can also do lots of tricks with it by playing the same one multiple times in 1 turn, which doesn't seem too hard to pull of with this. I mean there are loads of broken $5 Smithies so it's probably not too good, but it's really good!

I think the discard trigger should be limited to the end of your action phase, or at least to during your turn to avoid weirdness with Caravan Guard (or any other way to get +actions on opponents turns).
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 04:31:10 am »
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Thansk guys, I changed Azure Cove.
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2018, 12:38:04 am »
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Azure Cove- Being able to use it as a normal smithy before or after a village, and pawning it off for a turn(s) to high roll seems nuts. Probably won't be as strong in a kingdom without a decent muit-action card.

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2018, 06:31:41 am »
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Two Azure Coves give you unbounded amounts of money with the +1$ and +1 Action token on their pile. Also with Certain champion combinations. It's relatively easy to fix by making it "call" or only allowing it in your cleanup phase.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2018, 03:31:12 pm »
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Two Azure Coves give you unbounded amounts of money with the +1$ and +1 Action token on their pile. Also with Certain champion combinations. It's relatively easy to fix by making it "call" or only allowing it in your cleanup phase.
Good spot. It is a combo that could easily be fixed via forbidding Azure Cove to be present together with Peasant/Lost Arts, Peasant/Training, Lost Arts/Training, Page/Peasant and Page/Training.
But I worry that even in other Kingdoms the 'play several times per turn' of the card might be too good. Throne Room + Azure Cove nets 4 cards and an Action which you can spend to discard Azure Cove. If I understand the "lose track" rule correctly, which I am never sure of, you are even be able to discard Azure Cove after you played it the first time with Throne Room (as my rule said that you can discard it at any time). This could lead to weird stuff like drawing a just Throned Azure Cove.

The idea to use a card several times per turn was dubious from the start. I fixed the card and used Wine Merchant's wording (discarding it at the end of your Action phase might lead to some issues with Villa).





Another double pile! Like Racketeer and City Guard Djinn and Efreet are constantly in the Supply with 5 per "half-pile" .
This is obviously a thematically inspired idea (yeah, you figured, I played Heroes of Might and Magic 3 back in the days). Djinn came pretty natural (might be nearly as good as Artisan but it is trickier to gain) whereas Efreet was a card that I came up with some time ago but never liked as it felt too strong. I put it fairly randomly on Efreet as I thought that making it harder to get would nerf it enough and only then I realized some interesting, unintended stuff: you can gain Efreet via Wishes as long as you have a Djinn in play. Efreet makes alt-VP better so wishing for Duchies might be a strategy.
I am still not sure whether Efreet is balanced (I will also test it with "draw 3 cards instead of 5") or any good though.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2018, 12:23:31 am »
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I like Efreet, but Djinn is definitely too strong for $5. Artisan costs $6 and makes you put a card on your deck. Wishes gain cards costing up to $6 (Artisan is up to $5).
Efreet is very strong, but I think it's balanced enough by costing $6 and needing a Djinn. But needing a Magic Lamp is not enough of a drawback for Djinn.

On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5). I'd suggesting moving the hex mechanic to Djinn, have Djinn say either "Receieve a hex. Gain a Wish" or "You may receieve a hex to gain a Wish" with some simple alternate effect. Then do something a little different with Owl.

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2018, 01:14:42 am »
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I like Efreet, but Djinn is definitely too strong for $5. Artisan costs $6 and makes you put a card on your deck. Wishes gain cards costing up to $6 (Artisan is up to $5).
Efreet is very strong, but I think it's balanced enough by costing $6 and needing a Djinn. But needing a Magic Lamp is not enough of a drawback for Djinn.

On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5). I'd suggesting moving the hex mechanic to Djinn, have Djinn say either "Receieve a hex. Gain a Wish" or "You may receieve a hex to gain a Wish" with some simple alternate effect. Then do something a little different with Owl.

How about "You may play a Magic Lamp from your hand. If you do, gain a wish." clause?
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2018, 06:03:05 am »
+1

How about "You may play a Magic Lamp from your hand. If you do, gain a wish." clause?
That sounds good but I don't want Djinn to prevent the cashing in Magic Lamp and obviously I don't want the opposite either, Djinn to be dead once Magic Lamp is gone.
I could do something like force-trashing Magic Lamp when you gain Djinn such that you have to decide whether you wanna go for the 3 Wishes one-shot thing or constantly gain Wishes via Djinn. But being able to get a maximum of one Djinn seems to restricted. One idea is after all that you wanna gain "too many" Djinns such that it becomes more likely to gain Efreet.

I like Efreet, but Djinn is definitely too strong for $5. Artisan costs $6 and makes you put a card on your deck. Wishes gain cards costing up to $6 (Artisan is up to $5).
Efreet is very strong, but I think it's balanced enough by costing $6 and needing a Djinn. But needing a Magic Lamp is not enough of a drawback for Djinn.
Artisan gains the card to hand and then forces you to topdeck a card which is stronger than merely gaining a $5. You can either immediately play the gained card or you'll topdeck it and play it next turn.
This is probably stronger than gaining a Wish which is more admittedly more flexible, allows you to gain $6s but can be drawn dead.
But you are probably right that Djinn is nonetheless too strong.

On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5).
I tried to nerf it via making the 2 VPs conditional on no Silvers in your deck instead of the more or less automatic 2VPs (1VP per empty pile with Provinces and Owls being empty in most games) of the first version but it still feels, as you said, like something between $4 and $5. Perhaps undoing the Victory card and making it a pure Baker-Scout thing?
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2018, 11:04:22 pm »
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On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5).
I tried to nerf it via making the 2 VPs conditional on no Silvers in your deck instead of the more or less automatic 2VPs (1VP per empty pile with Provinces and Owls being empty in most games) of the first version but it still feels, as you said, like something between $4 and $5. Perhaps undoing the Victory card and making it a pure Baker-Scout thing?
I like the victory part. There aren't any official night-victory cards. You could easily make it cost $5. Then you can return the VP to how it was originally, and maybe say "You may put any victory and night cards into your hand."
(Having no silvers could occasionally be easier than having more than one empty pile, but the no-silver condition is weird.)
OTOH, I also like that it costs less than $5, so it may be worth dropping the VP to keep it at $4.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 02:13:12 am »
+1

On another note, my favorite card of yours is Owl, although I think it needs tweaking (as-is, it's probably too strong for $4 and too weak for $5).
I tried to nerf it via making the 2 VPs conditional on no Silvers in your deck instead of the more or less automatic 2VPs (1VP per empty pile with Provinces and Owls being empty in most games) of the first version but it still feels, as you said, like something between $4 and $5. Perhaps undoing the Victory card and making it a pure Baker-Scout thing?
I like the victory part. There aren't any official night-victory cards. You could easily make it cost $5. Then you can return the VP to how it was originally, and maybe say "You may put any victory and night cards into your hand."
(Having no silvers could occasionally be easier than having more than one empty pile, but the no-silver condition is weird.)
OTOH, I also like that it costs less than $5, so it may be worth dropping the VP to keep it at $4.
I am fixated on a price of $4 as the entire thing with the Heirloom exists to make this a more attractive opener. So I probably have to get rid of the VP part if I wanna salvage the idea or start from scratch. Owls scout for Night cards anyway so it being a Victory c ard doesn't feel all that organic.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 03:21:00 pm »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2018, 01:27:33 am »
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I'm in for trashing a Magic Lamp to get 1 Djinn per player, moving Efreet to outtakes or redesign limbo.

Do what's right for the card.   The other card can't be so cool to make such sacrifices.

I mean not that I understand what is interesting about a 6$ nonterminal with a buy restriction reading "You need to have a specific power 5 terminal in play to buy this", that's pretty close to "Feodum for Gold" on the list of things-you-wanted-to-do-anyway. 
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2018, 01:41:11 am »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 11:33:10 am »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
Ok.  That happens though.  So it's a valid point.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2018, 12:43:10 pm »
+1

"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
Ok.  That happens though.  So it's a valid point.
Sure, but I don't see any actual rule problems. The only seemingly relevant case is hitting a Duchy in the late game in the absence of any other 5s in the Kingdom which leads to the same thing as Swindler hitting a Shelter: the attacked player trashes the card but gains nothing.



About Djinn/Efreet, thanks for all the tips. I will have to test these new versions as well as the old version before I settle on anything (which is probably getting rid of the idea altogether):



The problems are obvious: playing for Magic Lamp and the 3 Wishes might be better than going for Djinn. While gaining Efreets was initially too hard it might be too easy now (not at least because you don't have to go for it via the Djinn path).
About the Efreet wording, I know that it is awkward but I did not find a technically correct way to word it that did not sound convoluted.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2018, 01:04:54 pm »
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Hmm Djinn just seems like a more boring Leprechaun to me. You know like a hard to get Wish gainer but it's a bit more luck based whether you get $5 with a Magic Lamp soon enough and it doesn't have any other use.

Efreet is a bit odd, I guess your supposed to store up victories with it and then discard them all for a bunch of vp? The abilities don't really seem connected apart from that. It's basically just a weird unlimited Gear kinda thing that randomly gets destroyed by Militias?
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2018, 01:34:28 pm »
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I think Djinn is fine, but it suffers a lot from the fact that Pottery exists (that's the name, right? I'm out of touch). For if I was to suggest a way to improve it, it would be by just making the card cost 6$, at which point it's a Pottery that trades fast access to the gained cards with the ability to gain copies of itself, and one type of flexibility with another. Maybe it could just cost 5$ with some beneficial player interaction instead of the gain restriction? Like setting aside a Boon (that doesn't give $) at the start, which it always gives oto the other players on gain? Or just a random Boon to save on words.

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2018, 01:39:43 pm »
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Hmm Djinn just seems like a more boring Leprechaun to me. You know like a hard to get Wish gainer but it's a bit more luck based whether you get $5 with a Magic Lamp soon enough and it doesn't have any other use.

Efreet is a bit odd, I guess your supposed to store up victories with it and then discard them all for a bunch of vp? The abilities don't really seem connected apart from that. It's basically just a weird unlimited Gear kinda thing that randomly gets destroyed by Militias?
Yeah, discard Victory cards for VPs and transfering other cards into the next turn is the main purpose and you are totally right that the card is weak in the presence of handsize attacks.
I don't see the oddity or weirdness. There is some self-synergy if you use the second option and in the next turn the first option but you can also ignore the first option and mainly use it for card transfer.

The problem I see though is that the card might be too strong in alt-VP or draw-your-deck engines. Nonterminal VP generation should either be conditional (Groundskeeper) or appear late enough in the game to not become dominant (Plunder). With Efreet you could green a bit but then stop and play your Efreet engine without having any incentive to end the game.
I tried to reign that in via making the card hard to gain but only playtesting will show whether the restriction is severe enough to not make this a game-breaking powerhouse.


I think Djinn is fine, but it suffers a lot from the fact that Pottery exists (that's the name, right? I'm out of touch). For if I was to suggest a way to improve it, it would be by just making the card cost 6$, at which point it's a Pottery that trades fast access to the gained cards with the ability to gain copies of itself, and one type of flexibility with another. Maybe it could just cost 5$ with some beneficial player interaction instead of the gain restriction? Like setting aside a Boon (that doesn't give $) at the start, which it always gives oto the other players on gain? Or just a random Boon to save on words.
Yeah, it is (too?) similar to Artisan. As the origin of the card is thematic I want to connect it with Magic Lamp. Without that thematic weight what you suggest could of course lead to a mechanically sounder card.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 03:26:02 am »
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To add two more to that pile of my cents, I feel that theme is a great way to start developing a card (giving you a source of inspiration), but it's not a great idea to enforce it at the cost of mechanics (in Dominion and similar games, that is). If you were to think that a fix that ignores the lamp makes for a more sound card, just give it another name. You can still use that name as an inspiration for yet another card (although admittedly I have a hard timme thinking of a Djinn-named card that doesn't use Wishes at all).

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 08:04:49 am »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
That's not the point; the point is what happens if I Swindle your $5 card and ask you to take a Djinn in response? Swindler allows me to do that, because Djinn is a $5 card in the Supply; Djinn tells you you can't do that because you can't gain it without a Magic Lamp in play. So the logical conclusion is probably that I swindle your $5 card into nothing, which is not a wanted interaction.
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Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 01:13:44 pm »
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"You cannot gain this unless..." has awkward interactions with Swindler.
I doubt that you want to give your opponents Djinn unless you hit a Duchy late in the game.
That's not the point; the point is what happens if I Swindle your $5 card and ask you to take a Djinn in response? Swindler allows me to do that, because Djinn is a $5 card in the Supply; Djinn tells you you can't do that because you can't gain it without a Magic Lamp in play. So the logical conclusion is probably that I swindle your $5 card into nothing, which is not a wanted interaction.
Now I get your point. But it is still not an issue. Gain restrictions on Supply cards are new so there are no official rules concerning the order.
Naturally you should check Djinn's "gainability" first before you gain it. You should not be able to gain Djinn in any way, check for the gain condition afterwards and then somehow retroactively undo the gain.
So the Swindler player would choose Djinn as target but the card says that it is not gainable and the attacker would have to choose a different card just like he'd have to choose Copper once the Curse pile is empty when he hits a 0.

It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction. You cannot spend 6 Coin and a Buy on Grand Market, only then check for whether you can buy GM or not, then undo the buy with your resources being gone (not that anybody would do that). The game rather says that it is not possible to buy GM BEFORE you buy it just like the game would say that Djinn cannot be gained BEFORE the Swindler player chooses Djinn.

Djinn is basically a borderline Supply / non-Supply card as you can only gain it via a specific way. If you want to you can probably rephrase the card as a non-Supply card with the only way to gain it being written on the card instead of on the gainer as it is usually the case with non-Supply cards.
I actually thought about making Djinn and Efreets non-Supply cards when I came up with them but it seemed rule-wise more confusing than clarifying.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2018, 03:20:22 pm »
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It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction.
Well, the key difference between Gaining and Buying - and what allows Grand Market's buy restriction to exist at all - is that buying is always an active choice on the part of the player. You can't be forced into Buying a card by some other effect.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2018, 04:33:09 pm »
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It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction.
Well, the key difference between Gaining and Buying - and what allows Grand Market's buy restriction to exist at all - is that buying is always an active choice on the part of the player. You can't be forced into Buying a card by some other effect.
Game mechanics care little about whether you "actively" buy a card while you are in your Buy phase or whether you "passively" make a choice about what cards the other players gain while you play Swindler. From a mechanical point of view these adjectives are irrelevant and both situations are identical: the game waits for player input.

In both cases you might want to do something but you cannot do it because Grand Market respectively Djinn forbid it.
This isn't complicated and there is no rule issue unless you are set on creating one. Of course the the wording can be improved and while I did not see how Djinn/Efreet might very well be better implemented as non-Supply cards. But that's the least issue these cards have.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2018, 04:40:51 pm »
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It works precisely like Grand Market's buy restriction.
Well, the key difference between Gaining and Buying - and what allows Grand Market's buy restriction to exist at all - is that buying is always an active choice on the part of the player. You can't be forced into Buying a card by some other effect.
Game mechanics care little about whether you "actively" buy a card while you are in your Buy phase or whether you "passively" make a choice about what cards the other players gain while you play Swindler. From a mechanical point of view these adjectives are irrelevant and both situations are identical: the game waits for player input.

In both cases you might want to do something but you cannot do it because Grand Market respectively Djinn forbid it.
This isn't complicated and there is no rule issue unless you are set on creating one. Of course the the wording can be improved and while I did not see how Djinn/Efreet might very well be better implemented as non-Supply cards. But that's the least issue these cards have.

I'm no rules expert but Smugglers with an empty pile leads me to believe that you would be able to choose Djinn with Swindler and have your opponent gain nothing. I'm not sure whether that's actually a problem though.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2018, 08:10:03 pm »
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If you can even mount an argument about it, and the card is in the design phase, you should reword it so it is abundantly clear.  That's part of good, quality game design.  It doesn't matter if players can make a correct, unambiguous decision using a full and complete understanding of the official rules (well, you are even worse off if they can't, but that's not "the bar").  Where possible, you should make the card so clear no one asks questions.

"You can't buy this unless you have a Magic Lamp in play.  When you gain this, trash all Magic Lamps from play" is the same number of words and has the same exact play aside from Border Village, Storyteller, Black Market, Horn of Plenty and Haggler, which is a 5 card list but I'm pretty sure is in single digit percentage of boards.

That's another thing, you should make it abundantly clear whether you trash all Magic Lamps from play, or just one.  "Trash Magic Lamp" is like, only one has ever existed or will exist so it doesn't matter.

Ok, I thought of the night cards too, Vampire and Changeling.  The other option has some word cost, "When you gain this, trash it if you don't have a Magic Lamp in play".  But it works with the rules more gracefully.

Or if you want to be super Melvin (is Melvin the name for people that like dovetailed mechanics? Vorthos vs. Melvin I think it's called)  "When you gain this, trash it or a Magic Lamp you have in play."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:19:39 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2018, 09:18:58 am »
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"You can't buy this unless you have a Magic Lamp in play.  When you gain this, trash all Magic Lamps from play" is the same number of words and has the same exact play aside from Border Village, Storyteller, Black Market, Horn of Plenty and Haggler, which is a 5 card list but I'm pretty sure is in single digit percentage of boards.
Not really. You forgot Vampire, Artisan, Altar, all Remodel variants and above all Wishes which implies that Djinn can indirectly gain itself. That's the last thing I want Djinn to be as it would be obviously broken (there is a reason direct gainers like Artisan, Vampire cannot gain themselves).
As I already said, I am open for better wording but not if it completly changes the way the card is supposed to work.

Djinn should come out of the bottle and if this is too thematic and cannot be made to work mechanically (which is my main worry) the idea will land in the trash.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2018, 11:48:05 pm »
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Altar + Storyteller + Djinn is a 3 card specified board.  Magic Lamp is hard to get in play before an Action gainer is played since it's a Treasure.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2018, 02:47:28 am »
+2

Djinn should come out of the bottle and if this is too thematic and cannot be made to work mechanically (which is my main worry) the idea will land in the trash.

Story time: This is exactly the theme behind my Homunculus trashing a Potion on gain. Just that it didn't have that theme originally. I renamed the card when I thought that the Potion thing would be the best way to solve its issues, which is pretty much what I said about theme being something you should be willing to change if it makes you end up with a better card. Theme is nice, but if theme is the only reason you want to do a card, I'm not sure it's such a great fit for Dominion. It's not a very thematic game.

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2018, 06:09:58 am »
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Altar + Storyteller + Djinn is a 3 card specified board.  Magic Lamp is hard to get in play before an Action gainer is played since it's a Treasure.
You seem to be confused. Your suggested Buy restriction would not prevent Djinn from being gained via Altar or Wishes or any other gainer which is why it does not work.

Theme is nice, but if theme is the only reason you want to do a card, I'm not sure it's such a great fit for Dominion. It's not a very thematic game.
That's why I will get rid of the idea if it doesn't work. Having slightly ambiguous rules (I really don't see the unclear cases and neither did my playing group in the two games in whcih I tried it so far but then again I am no rules expert) is not the issue of the card though.
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popsofctown

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2018, 06:13:43 am »
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Oh, derp.  True.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2018, 06:17:52 am »
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If the card is salvageable, which I seriously doubt after the two games, I am going to try to word it as non-Supply card. Because as you all said, there is definitely something fishy about the current wording.
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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2018, 07:27:38 am »
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"You can't buy this unless you have a Magic Lamp in play.  When you gain this, trash all Magic Lamps from play" is the same number of words and has the same exact play aside from Border Village, Storyteller, Black Market, Horn of Plenty and Haggler, which is a 5 card list but I'm pretty sure is in single digit percentage of boards.
Not really. You forgot Vampire, Artisan, Altar, all Remodel variants and above all Wishes which implies that Djinn can indirectly gain itself. That's the last thing I want Djinn to be as it would be obviously broken (there is a reason direct gainers like Artisan, Vampire cannot gain themselves).
As I already said, I am open for better wording but not if it completly changes the way the card is supposed to work.

Djinn should come out of the bottle and if this is too thematic and cannot be made to work mechanically (which is my main worry) the idea will land in the trash.

How about: "When you gain this during your turn, if you have no Magic Lamp in play, return it to the supply." Fixes Swindler issues while keeping with the desired mechanic. The only issue that it might still have is some lose-track stuff that would prevent it from being returned to the supply.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Holunder9

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #49 on: Today at 10:02:28 am »
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Time for some new cards.  All of them thematically or mechanically inspired by other fan card designers.



The general idea for Phoenix/Ashes is by volfied. Phoenix is a strong card with the downside that it is weak in the opening and that you can only play it infrequently. This could also be implemented via the Journey token but it makes no thematic sense as opposed to the Phoenix dying and being reborn thing. Phoenix could be too similar to Den of Sins.






The lady asked for some Nightwatch cards after we first played with Night cards so here they are.
They are directly inspired by Gazbag's freeze mechanism . The Season mechanic is by Asper and Cookielord.
White Walker is a variant of Yeti, Builder is the first version of Frost Spirit and Steward is Cold Storage.
There are 3 of each Brother and 6 White Walkers, shuffled together such that 3 Brothers are on top so the entire thing could be too random. I tried to make all cards versatile and fairly strong for their price to avoid that a bad card will prevent that the cards beneath it will see the sunlight.
Dragonglass Dagger is more of an afterthought, it is a Venture variant that can change the opening a bit like Doctor.

About the actual cards, Builder is a temporary pseudo-trasher, Ranger makes all Action cards next turn additional Fugitives and defends against the Walkers, Steward gains 5s that come into your deck a bit later, White Walker is a never-missing pseudo-trashing attack with a Rogue-like gain-from-freeze-limbo option.

I also used pacovf's suggestion for freeze as new keyword:

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majiponi

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #50 on: Today at 11:03:56 am »
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Does Phoenix need draw and set aside?

Quote
For each 2 different named cards in play, set aside the top card of your deck.

How about this phrase?
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loneXolf

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Re: Holunder's cards
« Reply #51 on: Today at 09:00:01 pm »
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Phoenix- So if you have phoenix, copper and two different cards it just turns into a pretty bad den of sins. You would need at least 8+ different cards cards in play to get some good value with the ashes downside in my book, while anything 5 or below seems pretty bad. Seems like a hard card to use well in a deck, and it doesn't look to work well in most kingdoms, but maybe I am underestimating the average amount of different cards in play.

The Night's Watch- No comment, just since the huge amount of different mechanics and I am not even sure how the night's watch card itself works. Might comment later on it, if you keep updating it.
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