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Andy7675

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Help with ideas?
« on: January 24, 2018, 07:11:42 pm »
+1

So my friends are trying to make a 'seven sins' themed pile (featuring only 7 cards, each costing 7.)
That means that there is only one copy of each card available (done like knights)
and some of these cards are preposterously gamebreaking.
(yes i made an account just for help here)

Here's his seven cards right now... Then i'll tell you my analysis and THEN i can beg for advice

Sloth. 7 cost
 
Look at the top three cards of your deck. Trash any number of them, then discard any number of them, then put the remaining cards back on top of the deck in any order. While this card is in play, all cards in the supply cost 1 less, but no less than 0. All duration cards and cards outside your deck by the effect of a duration card are discarded.

(My thoughts- Conditionally extremely good in some games. In games with a wharf/village engine, for example, the player that has this card has a huge advantage over the others. I actually think the card is interesting, but i can't justify having only one copy of such a potentially preposterous card. In games without too many durations, it still provides enough value to make it worth the purchase most of the time imo.)

Greed. 7 cost.

+1 coin token. You may trash a treasure card from your hand. If you do, gain any number of treasures with a total cost of twelve or less.

(His original card was instead 'gain one treasure' which i pointed out was extremely underwhelming in any game without platinum. I actually did suggest this card, so i can take the credit for this one. lol. I figure this one provides opportunity for interesting gameplay with the copper pile eliminated INSTANTLY, as well as some weird plays with bridge/highway/equivalent. The functionality of the card allows for a platinum/silver or two gold, plus coppers, but i actually do like the strange plays offered by this. Again, though, should be available to both players.)

Envy. 7 cost.
+1 action. Take one of the cards that the player to your right gained last turn from their deck or discard pile.

(I detest this card. It can provide a 20 vp swing lategame VERY often, and it shouldn't exist. Especially not when only one player can buy it. Also it slows the game down, plus it's practically a targeted attack because the other players never have to deal with it (only one copy.) So this card shouldn't exist.)

Lust. 7 cost.

Worth 2 VP at the end of the game. Gain 2 action cards from the supply that have images featuring clearly any humanoid face.

(I HATE THIS CARD too. So not only is it questionable what counts, which is the obvious concern, but also would need specific rulings that would need to be updated every banlist. I have pleaded, threatened, blackmailed (no i would NEVER) and begged for this mechanic to be changed, but the guy is set on it. Please do tell me how unbalanced this is though, anyway.)

Gluttony. 7 cost. Duration.

+1 buy, +2 coin. Gain up to 3 cards costing up to 3. For the next 2 turns, +2 coin at the start of the turn.

(I personally think this card is fairly weak most of the time. There aren't THAT many cards that are worth three that you would want in your deck. Unlike the other sins, you can't play it every turn (unless sloth hits it.) Needless to say, i recommended this card be changed, and he's not as set on this, so please do advise)

Wrath. 7 cost.

+1 card. Each other player either gains 1 copper, 1 ruin, and one curse to their hand, or topdecks down to three and performs "swindler" on the bottom card of the deck.

(This is the card i hate the most. Originally he had it at 3 cards (torturer 3.0 anyone?) but i convinced him it was OP enough already. My HUGE problem with this card is that ONLY ONE PLAYER GETS IT. Only one player can get the action that clogs as well as mountebank. Unless the game has huge trash potential, or alternative methods of clogging, this card will be VERY strong. The second option not only prevents cycling fast, but also performs swindler (the actual effect is written on their card, i just abbreviated) which i've always felt to be very swingy in many kingdoms. Now, you're only getting through 3 cards each turn, as you draw the two you topdeck, (4 if you count the trashed card.) Needless to say, this card would be crazily strong normally, and getting it is sure to be a massive factor towards winning.)

Pride. 7 cost.

Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put any number of victory cards or curses you find there into your hand. You may trash one non-victory card from your hand. Draw one card.

(This card is once again FREAKING CRAZY in many kingdoms. Could you imagine playing Shepherd with this card? Even Cellar? Especially because every card you draw will be functional, since this just removed your clog. Essentially this card offers crazy value in many games, and a free cycle in the rest of the games. This is also very broken normally, and in many games essentially offers such a crazy advantage it spells instant win. (Any game with discard for benefit essentially, let's be real.) So i actually like this card, and think 7 might be a little low (i'd pay 9 for this sometimes, sometimes i wouldn't pay 6.) But this card certainly can't be only available to one player. That's just garbage for the others.)





So those are my individual analyses of the cards. But overall, the entire method of distribution is likewise trash. Some of those cards are absolutely dominating in many games. Getting them is simply a matter of luck with how the pile is ordered. Anybody else play a Knights game where the opponent got Dame Anna in a game with no other trashing, and it took four deck rotations before it hit any of your knights or you hit it? That's the same problem here. These cards could offer such a crazy benefit or an entirely new game building strategy that if the opponent gets the right Sin you might as well concede. I don't like that much RNG in my dominion games, thank you. I'd rather skill be the deciding factor. I may yet convince him that the new Heirloom mechanic would be a better distribution for sins. Essentially i'd be making a Tournament that would have crazy prizes but we need a suitably complex condition. Currently tabled is an heirloom (1 coin, action) that reads "Trash treasures other than copper from your hand with a value of at least nine. If you do, gain a Sin." This would at least slow down players from acquiring a ton of the sins. It would also make the game into a mudfest race to see who can get first choice of sin, because one sin is often clearly superior to the others given a kingdom suitable. I'm interested as to whether any of you more experienced players have any good ideas as to either the balance of the cards (I would love to show him extremely atrocious protests at the balance of the cards) or how to balance them, or even a superior distribution method that would lose some RNG. I figure heirloom prizes make them at least more fair, as the race to get them involves at least some skill, as opposed to simply getting to the pile when it becomes available at the same time as the op card of the game (either sloth, wrath, or pride, probably.)

I would love to hear any suggestions and will regularly check this post to get advice. Any help is appreciated!
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Asper

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 01:55:52 pm »
+2

About Sloth: Duration cards do not lose their effects when discarded. A Hireling in play will still provide its card if removed from play (with e.g. Procession). The cards are left out for tracking only. Therefore the attack doesn't work. The card also is never worth 7$. 5$, maybe. The effects also have nothing to do with each other.

Greed is good at the start of the game as it trashes Coppers and gains Golds. Problem: It costs 7$ and therefore you don't have it when it's best. As a 5$, it would be much too strong. If you want it to cost 7$, put some of the new cards onto/into your deck. Making the gain depend on the trashing also means trouble.
Edit: And emptying the Copper pile also isn't good, design-wise. One should probably set an upper limit of cards gained. 4 at most.

Envy being able to take cards from another player stinks. Maybe make it a Reaction/Duration that gives you something when snother player buys something? A Duration stacks with player count, but so does Jester - so that'd be my suggestion. It could e.g. give out VP tokens if a Victory card is bought, oorcopies of cards bought. Just not the specific card, which is also technically problematic because of tracking.

Lust is awful. Nothing else to say here. (Hello, out-of-context thread).

Gluttony could give something now, another effect at the start of next turn, and a third at the end of the cleanup phase of that second turn. Or maybe just: Now, at the start of your next turn, and at the end of that turn's cleanup phase (after drawing a new hand): Gain a card costing up to 3$ ($4?) to your hand.

Wrath is exceptionally unfun, for the reasons you described.

Pride seems kinda fine to me. It guarantees one junk-less shuffle, but the next shuffle will be a normal one, as Pride also won't be in the next. Not sure it needs the trashing, but I like it best of them all.

Asper

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 02:13:15 pm »
+1

Oh, and also, several of these names already exist as Hexes.

Andy7675

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 11:13:12 pm »
0

Thanks for your advice- i laughed out loud at your analysis of Lust. That's what i told him!
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Asper

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 12:28:10 am »
+1

I mean, where to even begin with? The VP and the ability are totally unrelated. The ability is great if there's a 5$ (or more) it applies to, and mediocre otherwise. And most importantly, whether or not the ability applies at all is incredibly arguable. Does Pooka show a humanoid face? Does Imp? Does Wishing Well? Does Duplicate? Does Cache? Does Laboratory? Does Harem? What the heck is humanoid? Do I have to be able to recognize the face? Does it have to be big enough? Can it just be a reflection in a cloud that kind of looks like a face from a certain angle? Nothing against wacky ideas, but this is the kind of idea that is fun exactly once because it's so silly, and when the sillyness has stopped being fun so does the card. It certainly depends on what type of player you are. If you enjoy Carvassonne's "Catapult" expansion that involves shooting meeple around to have them stay where they land, or games where a card might only affect you if you wear glasses, and also really are a lot into arguing about unclear definitions, then yeah, do this card.

dz

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 12:52:04 am »
+2

Oh man these cards have a lot of problems. I agree with Asper's analysis, so I'll just bring up some other problems I have.

Why do all these need to cost $7?

A 7 card pile just sounds weird. The whole "7 deadly sins" flavor isn't enough of a reason.

Also All of these are way too complex. Especially since they're in the same pile, and all 7 of them don't do anything similar. At least all Knights have the same attack; these sins don't share anything at all.
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Andy7675

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 01:37:56 am »
+1

I mean, the solution i came up with is either to have a single kingdom card (like tournament) where the player has to accomplish a weird condition, where the prize is to gain a sin of their choice. That would be less random than a knights style mechanic, at least. I agree- the cards are fundamentally different and shouldn't need to all cost the same. That wouldn't be a problem, and the randomnity would be less of a problem, if they had a condition to gain them. That would make it less 'random player gets it' and more of a race to complete the condition. The card i suggested was a 5 cost action with NO ALTERNATIVE GAIN, reading "Discard a curse, a gold, a duchy, and an action card. If you do, gain a Sin." In my opinion, something like that would make the cards much less dominating and much less swingy. At least you'd get to compete for the cards that are particularly OP that game instead of having them turn up for you at the top. The alternative option tabled was having this pile with an Heirloom with the condition to gain them. That way players could plan to accomplish the condition on the heirloom (a bit like Ghost's Mirror from the cemetary, except much harder.) How's this sound for an heirloom (1 coin plus action) Trash any number of treasures, except copper. If the total cost of the cards trashed equals 10 or more, gain a Sin card from the Sin pile. That would force players to at least go negative a few turns to get the Sins, and would slow down the game enough before their acquisition that they would be less impactful.

Thoughts?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 10:31:35 am »
+1

I mean, the solution i came up with is either to have a single kingdom card (like tournament) where the player has to accomplish a weird condition, where the prize is to gain a sin of their choice.
Thoughts?

I'd flip this on its head, and make it an attack where each player has to accomplish a condition, if they fail, they are given a sin.

You could still make sins useful, but perhaps giving negative VPs at the end of the game.

At one point I had a card idea that was "Inquisitor: Every player reveals their hand. If they have any cards in their hand that are not in your hand, they gain a Curse." (i.e., you are convicted of heresy for believing something I don't.

Anyhow, just food for thought, I'm not even sure that such an idea doesn't make the design worse.
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Asper

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 11:06:55 am »
+1

I mean, the solution i came up with is either to have a single kingdom card (like tournament) where the player has to accomplish a weird condition, where the prize is to gain a sin of their choice.
Thoughts

I'd flip this on its head, and make it an attack where each player has to accomplish a condition, if they fail, they are given a sin.

You could still make sins useful, but perhaps giving negative VPs at the end of the game.

At one point I had a card idea that was "Inquisitor: Every player reveals their hand. If they have any cards in their hand that are not in your hand, they gain a Curse." (i.e., you are convicted of heresy for believing something I don't.

Anyhow, just food for thought, I'm not even sure that such an idea doesn't make the design worse.

Erm, we already have a Doom card called Tormentor that can give out Greed or Envy...

The Hexes kind of kill the whole concept of "7 Sins". It's based mostly on flavor, and that flavor is redundant. That doesn't mean there can't grow something cool out of that idea, but the theme seems droppable to me.

Chase Adolphson

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Re: Help with ideas?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2018, 06:32:07 pm »
+1

Change the names of greed and envy because of the hexes. Replace lust with a way better card.
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I'm glad to be talking with people that like dominion as well.
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