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Seprix

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Underrated Cards in 2018
« on: January 23, 2018, 11:50:34 am »
+11

Here is a short list of what I think have been underrated cards based on the 2017 Qvist rankings. Some of them are Nocturnes, others are old past favorites. Feel free to add or dispute anything on this list.

Knights

This pile has seen a continuous rise over the years, but it still isn't high enough. Knights are devastating when uncontested, and the person who loses the Knight split is racing against the clock. With Lurker, Graverobber, Necromancer and Rogue, games with Knights are more centralizing and degenerate than ever. Don't forget Throne Room variants either.

Tracker

I know, I know looks crazy. Just start buying it. You are going to be surprised how useful and consistent it is. The topdeck ability alone is great, much cheaper opportunity cost than a Royal Seal, and Boons are very useful.

Fool's Gold

Yeah, mass FG is bad. But you know what isn't bad? Great payload at the cheap. This is one people are coming around to as well, and I almost didn't put it on the list.

Borrow

Events in general are still underrated. There is a famous maxim, "wherever you rated the Events, put them 10 spots higher." It's a ludicrous statement at its core, but it shows a truth. Events absolutely dominate games and Borrow is no exception. Think of a game where Borrow is on the board and you never used it. Exactly.

Traveling Fair

Why in the hell is this dropping in rank? It should be going up if anything! Topdecking cards and extra buys for only $2 is insane power. Consistency is the best friend of engines with the exception of the very lucky Tournament deck. If you are not using this Event, you are going to lose every time to someone who does.

Druid

This one is understandable, because Druid by itself sucks. Just more of a PSA that Wisps are the most broken thing ever, and that you should basically open Druid any time there is Swamp's Gift set aside. Yes, even forgo trashing if Flames is included. Other reasons to maybe get Druid: Earth's Gift, Flame's Gift, Field's Gift, +buy.

Doctor

People have gotten too annoyed at Doctor's bullshit to realize just how fast of a trasher Doctor is. I have won games getting Doctor over say, Steward. Not joking. (Speaking of which, if there's an Overrated list ever, throw Steward on there, please.) Just pay attention to your deck contents at all times, swallow the pill, and play with Doctor more. It's really not that bad.

Expedition

Continuing the theme of misaligned Events. Draw is good, handsize increase at start of turn is good, Den of Sin and Wharf demonstrate this, why is this dropping? Consistency is good for engines, and Expedition provides it. It isn't the most powerful Event ever but with the right Kingdom you can play with Expedition support handily in your deck.

Fool

Yeah it's bad, but not basically at the very bottom of the list bad! Fool provides an alternate path to building in the opening over Silver. Most of the Boons Fool provides give economy (Mountain, Field, Forest, Sky), cycling (Sea, River, Wind), or enginey stuff (Swamp, Flame, Earth). The mostly garbage Boons in this sense are Moon, Sun and sometimes Sky. It could go bad but statistically it should be fine. Of course, you get a dead card in Fool if uncontested. If contested, Fool gets a lot better. Time will tell but it doesn't seem to be that close to the very bottom of the $3s.

Marauder

This is a must open on so many boards, and it gives you payload too. People see this and think Sea Hag. Marauder is so much better than the Hag.

Exorcist

Placed horribly currenty, yeah it's Nocturne but it should see an incredible rise. Estate trashing into Wisps is an incredible tempo booster, Silvers become great draw in Imps and if you need it, more expensive engine parts become Ghosts. And it's a trasher you cannot draw dead. Uh sign me up.

Advisor

It's actually really good draw on the cheap. Just start buying them en mass. I know I know you lose your best card but soon you stop caring because you're drawing everything.

Engineer

This has not risen nearly fast enough. Being able to trash your hand and pick up an Engineer is such a HUGE boost to tempo. There are so many cool things you can do with Engineer.

Bishop

And this has continued to drop because.. why exactly? There also seems to be this pretend rule that you are not allowed to open Bishop. Bullshit, you absolutely can sometimes. Yeah your opponent gets thinner, so what? So do you! And you get VP with it, he doesn't. There are boards where the VP doesn't matter and the trashers are great, but with a dearth of both consider yourself a Bishop opening. Look into the terminal space, the kind of deck needed to be built, etc.

Groundskeeper

With enough Groundskeepers, you don't need to buy Provinces. You can buy Estates or Duchies, sometimes for even more points! You can prolong the game as long as you like. Engines love this card. At the worst Groundskeeper ends up being a cantrip Duchy or better. It's a heck of a steal.

Den of Sin

New Card Syndrome applies to Den of Sin as it is from Nocturne, but man what a card. While worse than Wharf, Den of Sin can never be played dead, and on buy you get to use it immediately, leading to such an increase in tempo. It is a very strong draw card.

Triumph

Man, have engines somehow gotten worse in 2018? Why is this dropping? Jsh wrote an article and everything!

Forum

I think this one will be forever underrated honestly. I know, it looks like it sucks. Just start picking it up on $5 if you have nothing immediately better to do. You will start winning tons of games like you couldn't believe. It is a consistency machine. Nothing like Warehouse. It's basically draw.

Legionary

It's a terminal Gold that has one of the most brutal attacks in the game. It's dropping for some dumb reason. I see people skipping it on boards they shouldn't, so maybe that is why.

Council Room

It's just a slightly worse Margrave. Please, start buying this thing...

Jester

Overrated for so long, the worm has turned and now it is finally underrated. Basically don't ever fall behind, because Jester favors the player who is ahead. If you are behind, don't pick it up and keep building, although you're probably sunk in the long term.

And that is all that came immediately to my mind. Let's stir this controversy pot and see what we get.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:17:59 am by Seprix »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 12:20:08 pm »
0

The benefits of Bishop have to outweigh the benefits you give your opponent by an amount greater than the other card you could've gained/played, right?

I don't doubt there are occasions where that is true on T1/T2, but I DO doubt that I can correctly identify those cases.
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 12:59:20 pm »
0

Triumph

Man, have engines somehow gotten worse in 2018?

Well, apparently people haven't still figured out that trashing is actually pretty good so it's no wonder the other engine cards are too low as well.
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 03:56:18 pm »
+3

Graverobber gets my vote. I get that it doesn't help build the engine great and can be clunky to fit in since it doesn't give +action or +cards, but it ends up being solid endgame payload that also can regenerate its fodder if needed. Like, if people are fine with remodeling Golds into Provinces, then Graverobbing 5's isn't much different. Or use it to turn weakish engine components into strong ones. At the very least, 95/111 is absolutely too low.
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Polk5440

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 04:31:54 pm »
+7

Feel free to add or dispute anything on this list.[/i]

I dispute the existence of this list in Articles. Please move to General Discussion.

Also, is there a ranking of all the cards up for 2018 that you are referring to that I missed somewhere?
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 10:06:31 pm »
0

Still haven't played with Triumph enough to judge it well, but I really agree with Bishop, Groundskeeper, Royal Carriage, Den of Sin, Legionary, and maybe Borrow (I accidentally put Groundskeeper way lower on the list than I meant to. I don't know what I was thinking.) A couple others (Tracker, Jester, Advisor) were probably slightly underrated, but not enough to go on a most-underrated list.

Knights kinda suck.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 10:08:36 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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luser

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2018, 02:15:29 pm »
+1

Meh, bishop is still overrated, its card that playing it makes opponents win.
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crj

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2018, 10:01:43 pm »
0

Surely its usefulness in building golden decks justifies a favourable rating, even if it's not as useful for early thinning as it might have been?
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Titandrake

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 10:23:19 pm »
0

I forget who it was, but there was definitely an old-school player who said that Bishop open was usually wrong, and it was better to pick it up a few turns after the opening. I still think that's correct.

Bishop is only kind of for the trashing. You really want it more for the VP. It turns out VP chips are still really good. I don't know if I'd say it's underrated though.
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 11:04:51 pm »
0

I usually get Bishop in the mid-late game. Having a flexible source of VP is pretty neat if you have some sort of engine, and it might only takes a few turns to catch up to a player that happened to open Bishop.
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 11:41:37 pm »
+1

I forget who it was, but there was definitely an old-school player who said that Bishop open was usually wrong, and it was better to pick it up a few turns after the opening. I still think that's correct.

Bishop is only kind of for the trashing. You really want it more for the VP. It turns out VP chips are still really good. I don't know if I'd say it's underrated though.
I remember very vividly getting beat down by DG's King's Court-Pawn deck on a board with no other trashing, because I was foolish enough to open Bishop to let him slim into his engine.
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Titandrake

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2018, 01:35:12 am »
+2

I forget who it was, but there was definitely an old-school player who said that Bishop open was usually wrong, and it was better to pick it up a few turns after the opening. I still think that's correct.

Bishop is only kind of for the trashing. You really want it more for the VP. It turns out VP chips are still really good. I don't know if I'd say it's underrated though.
I remember very vividly getting beat down by DG's King's Court-Pawn deck on a board with no other trashing, because I was foolish enough to open Bishop to let him slim into his engine.

It's funny that board is described as "a pretty boring set", because with the benefit of hindsight, that looks like a board where you go for the KC-Masq pin. (Assuming 1st edition rules.)
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Seprix

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2018, 03:26:18 am »
0

I forget who it was, but there was definitely an old-school player who said that Bishop open was usually wrong, and it was better to pick it up a few turns after the opening. I still think that's correct.

Philip or WW, money on Philip.

Feel free to add or dispute anything on this list.[/i]

I dispute the existence of this list in Articles. Please move to General Discussion.

Also, is there a ranking of all the cards up for 2018 that you are referring to that I missed somewhere?

Nah did this on purpose, and no it's based on the 2017 Qvist rankings.

Meh, bishop is still overrated, its card that playing it makes opponents win.

Yeah it's definitely underrated. How many competent players do you see opening Bishop? I tell you sometimes, once in a blue moon it is the right call. Yeah your opponent is getting thin, but so are you and you have VP to play with.
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2018, 03:40:11 am »
+2

I opened bishop in one of the league games this season, and won it too

Awaclus

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2018, 05:04:12 am »
0

I forget who it was, but there was definitely an old-school player who said that Bishop open was usually wrong, and it was better to pick it up a few turns after the opening. I still think that's correct.

Well, is there an old-school player who wouldn't say that at this point?
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 09:09:10 am »
+4

Feel free to add or dispute anything on this list.
I dispute the existence of this list in Articles. Please move to General Discussion.
Nah did this on purpose, and no it's based on the 2017 Qvist rankings.

Seprix, surely you can concede that this is by no means a Dominion Strategy Article. Sure, you mention strategy, but it's basically a set of opinions on cards, and in some cases maybe presented a little to much like facts. Some of the cards (Druid) you mention good PSA's, thanks, but way too many of the cards are like this:

Quote
Royal Carriage

Dropped for some reason. No idea why

That is not a strategy paragraph. It's not an article on RC. And for about 50% of the cards you don't even explain why they are underrated, you just say they are. I don't want the Articles section to become flooded with 10 different people posting "Underrated Cards in 2018", especially if they all wildly differ from each other. Please, expand your post to include strategy highlights on these cards or move to General Discussion.

And please don't take this harshly, I just want to make sure there is a higher standard for the articles section.
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Seprix

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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2018, 09:20:47 am »
0

Just someone delete this fucking topic. already. I can't do it.
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Re: Underrated Cards in 2018
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2018, 09:42:52 am »
+6

Just someone delete this fucking topic. already. I can't do it.

Isn't this tone a bit overdramatic? Conflict hasn't escalated much yet. You wouldn't prefer Theory just moving it to General Discussion?

No, what is missing is some sort of "Dominion Cards List 2017: Afterthoughts" thread where people can discuss their thoughts on the cards list this year as a whole, where it is reasonable to talk about several sub-lists at once in a single post such as this thread's OP does. Perhaps such a thread can contain the full list ranking of all the cards.

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