Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Donate + Windfall  (Read 1497 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gazbag

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: Gazbag
  • Respect: +759
    • View Profile
Donate + Windfall
« on: January 22, 2018, 01:00:18 pm »
+21

Pure Donate Windfall

Turn 1: Donate and pay off debt and trash down to 5 Coppers.

Turn 2: Pay off the rest of the debt.

Turn 3: Windfall

Turn 4: Donate and pay off debt. If you have 1 or less debt, trash down to 2 Golds. If you have 2 or more debt, trash down to 3 Golds.

Turn 5: Pay off debt and Windfall.

Turn 6: If you trashed down to 2 Gold you can Windfall again, if not buy Province.

Turn 7+: Buy Province.

With perfect shuffles and just 2 Windfalls this can buy 8 Provinces in 13 turns. The 3 Windfalls takes 14 turns at least, but gets fewer 2 Gold hands so should be faster on average. Note that this is slower with a 2/5 opening as you can't pay off all the debt on turn 2.
(If someone could simulate this that would be amazing, I'm too stupid to figure out how to make the turn 1 Donate work).

This is more a good big money strategy than a power combo like Donate+Market Square. But can also be used as a stepping stone to lead into building an engine...

Donate Windfall in an engine

The mere presence of Donate will often mean there will be an engine good enough to beat a pure Donate Windfall strategy, attacks also hurt the strategy a good deal. Donate Windfall has use in an engine deck too though, following the strategy will leave you with a deck of 3 Golds on turn 5, adding a +buy card here can allow you to build incredibly quickly with a fully trashed deck that already has a lot of payload.

This is my first time writing something like this so tell me how to make it less terrible please!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 05:34:59 pm by Gazbag »
Logged

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1312
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 01:09:04 pm »
+2

Turn 4: Donate and pay off debt. If you have 1 or less debt, trash down to 2 Golds. If you have 2 or more debt, trash down to 3 Golds.

Turn 5: Pay off debt and Windfall.

Turn 6: If you trashed down to 2 Gold you can Windfall again, if not buy Province.

If the Provinces are contested, attempting a three-Windfall strategy seems bad - you probably want 2 Windfalls and then green, or potentially even just 1 Windfall and then green.  Also, the opening gets delayed a turn on a 2/5 opening, which is worth mentioning.
Logged

Gazbag

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: Gazbag
  • Respect: +759
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 01:32:31 pm »
0

Turn 4: Donate and pay off debt. If you have 1 or less debt, trash down to 2 Golds. If you have 2 or more debt, trash down to 3 Golds.

Turn 5: Pay off debt and Windfall.

Turn 6: If you trashed down to 2 Gold you can Windfall again, if not buy Province.

If the Provinces are contested, attempting a three-Windfall strategy seems bad - you probably want 2 Windfalls and then green, or potentially even just 1 Windfall and then green.  Also, the opening gets delayed a turn on a 2/5 opening, which is worth mentioning.

Ah yes, I meant to mention the 2/5. Thanks!

In a mirror I can see stopping at 1 Windfall, but after 4-5 Provinces the deck slows to a crawl. The 2 vs 3 Windfalls is close - I'd have to see simulator results to know for sure but in my (limited) testing 3 was more consistent. Tbh most of the time there's going to be something better to build after Windfalling once anyway.

When I try using the simulator it trashes down to 4 Coppers after Donating and I can't figure out how to control that, can anyone help with that?
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 563
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1270
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2018, 02:42:20 pm »
+1

In a mirror I can see stopping at 1 Windfall, but after 4-5 Provinces the deck slows to a crawl. The 2 vs 3 Windfalls is close - I'd have to see simulator results to know for sure but in my (limited) testing 3 was more consistent. Tbh most of the time there's going to be something better to build after Windfalling once anyway.

I don't know.  6 Provinces in ~12 turns is really tough to beat.  I mean, sometimes you add a good terminal action like Butcher, but I think you end up rushing Provinces most of the time.  Militia-style attacks won't really hurt (though Ghost Ship will; Legionary, Minion, and Relic might).  Junking attacks can disrupt the Windfall turns, which is interesting, but if they come later it will be too little, too late.  If there's a bunch of alternative VP (e.g. Goons, Colonies, Groundskeeper), you'll probably be rewarded for building.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:43:23 pm by aku_chi »
Logged

Gazbag

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: Gazbag
  • Respect: +759
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 05:33:53 pm »
0

In a mirror I can see stopping at 1 Windfall, but after 4-5 Provinces the deck slows to a crawl. The 2 vs 3 Windfalls is close - I'd have to see simulator results to know for sure but in my (limited) testing 3 was more consistent. Tbh most of the time there's going to be something better to build after Windfalling once anyway.

I don't know.  6 Provinces in ~12 turns is really tough to beat.  I mean, sometimes you add a good terminal action like Butcher, but I think you end up rushing Provinces most of the time.  Militia-style attacks won't really hurt (though Ghost Ship will; Legionary, Minion, and Relic might).  Junking attacks can disrupt the Windfall turns, which is interesting, but if they come later it will be too little, too late.  If there's a bunch of alternative VP (e.g. Goons, Colonies, Groundskeeper), you'll probably be rewarded for building.

In my limited experience with it, it doesn't take too much to beat because the Donate+Windfall also supercharges the engine deck. You obviously still need something like +buy or an attack like the ones you listed. The problem with the Windfall deck is that it isn't that fast if you do 2-3 Windfalls but it basically puts no pressure on ending the game with just 1 Windfall because it crashes so hard on green.

Of course in practise that might be rarer than I think. It also might just be better to rush the Provinces if your opponent doesn't see it coming, which you would know if they don't turn 1 Donate.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 848
  • Respect: +1549
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 09:46:24 pm »
0

This, of course, destroys Lord Rat, but what does a Mirror look like?
Logged

Gazbag

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: Gazbag
  • Respect: +759
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2018, 02:27:25 am »
+3

Okay so I managed to work out a solution for the simulator (starting deck of just 5 coppers and buy do-nothing Advance turns 1 and 2 to proxy for donating). In the Mirror going for 2 Windfalls seems a tiny bit better, beating single Windfall 44-42% -not much of a difference. In a real game it comes down to endgame play I suppose and I guess the 2 Windfall strategy is more robust the longer the game drags on.

The best strategy in the mirror just seems to be going full green after the Windfalling - Duchy on <$8 and Estate on <$5. Going for more Golds or Silvers is bad, apparently.

I think I was underestimating this strategy, I assumed I would have heard about it already if it was truly great so I was doubting myself too much. Although I guess 2 Events appearing in the same Kingdom is quite rare.
Logged

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 645
  • Respect: +978
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 11:13:26 am »
0

What's the baseline for just plain Big Money + Donate?  Has anyone figured that out?
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 848
  • Respect: +1549
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2018, 11:36:37 am »
0

A Draw/Buy combo like Margrave/Tragic Hero/Wharf might be worth delaying the second Windfall.
Logged

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 523
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +853
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2018, 11:37:56 am »
0

Ok, what am I missing here? Why would you trash a Gold on Turn 4, regardless of how much debt you have?
Logged

Gazbag

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: Gazbag
  • Respect: +759
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 12:12:29 pm »
0

What's the baseline for just plain Big Money + Donate?  Has anyone figured that out?

I assume someone has figured it out, but I don't know it. My guess would be it's good as far as big money goes but bad as far as Donate strategies go?

Ok, what am I missing here? Why would you trash a Gold on Turn 4, regardless of how much debt you have?

If you trash down to 2 cards you can Windfall twice because after the first you still have a 5 card deck. You can't do this if you have too much debt because then you won't be able to afford Windfall after paying it off. Unfortunately I can't get the simulator to do this so I can't compare it to single or double Windfall very well. It seems too slow for the mirror, but in the non-mirror I can see it being correct.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 12:16:50 pm by Gazbag »
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 563
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1270
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 12:14:40 pm »
+7

What's the baseline for just plain Big Money + Donate?  Has anyone figured that out?

4 Provinces in ~11-12 turns; 6 Provinces in ~16 turns

Assuming 3/4 or 4/3 opening and $3-5 on turn 3:
Turn 1: Buy Silver
Turn 2: Buy Silver
Turn 3: Donate to 2 Silvers
Turn 4: Pay off debt
Turn 5: Buy Silver
Turn 6: Buy Gold
Turn 7: Buy Province
Turn 8: Buy Province
Turn 9: Buy Gold
Turn 10+: Buy Province when possible, buy Gold otherwise.

You can play it slightly differently, keeping some Copper, but it doesn't change things much.
Logged

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 523
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +853
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2018, 03:27:52 pm »
0

Ok, what am I missing here? Why would you trash a Gold on Turn 4, regardless of how much debt you have?

If you trash down to 2 cards you can Windfall twice because after the first you still have a 5 card deck. You can't do this if you have too much debt because then you won't be able to afford Windfall after paying it off. Unfortunately I can't get the simulator to do this so I can't compare it to single or double Windfall very well. It seems too slow for the mirror, but in the non-mirror I can see it being correct.

ahh, ok duh
Logged

xnor

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Shuffle iT Username: xnor
  • Respect: +27
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 01:26:20 am »
+11

What's the baseline for just plain Big Money + Donate?  Has anyone figured that out?

Donating twice is fast at rushing for the Province split, getting the 4th Province on turn 10, 11, or (rarely) 12. Compared to donating once as per aku_chi, you probably have an extra Province after turn 9 but two fewer Silver.

Turn 1: Buy Silver *
Turn 2: Donate down to Silver + 4 Coppers
Turn 3: Pay off debt
Turn 4: Buy Gold
Turn 5: Buy Gold
Turn 6: Donate down to Gold, Gold, Silver, paying off debt **
Turn 7: Buy Province
Turn 8: Buy Province
Turn 9: Buy Province
Turn 10+: Buy Province or Gold or Silver ***

* Of course opening $2/$5 doesn't allow this. Anything else is fine, even $5/$2 repaying 6 debt on turn 3.
** You need 8 coin in hand to have no debt left over. The 1/7 of the time that you don't, you can only afford Gold next turn.
*** Before turn 10, your deck is 3 Provinces, 2 Golds, and a Silver, so a fourth Province is a 1/2 chance of a treasure being bottom-decked. If you miss, you have a 4/5 chance of Province on turn 11.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 04:32:27 am by xnor »
Logged

xnor

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Shuffle iT Username: xnor
  • Respect: +27
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 03:45:22 pm »
+13

I simulated plain Big Money + Donate, comparing donating twice (Don2) to donating once (Don1) in average time to buy N Provinces, opening $3/$4 or $4/$3. Don2' is a variant of Don2 that buys Gold rather than Province on Turn 9.

N   Don2   Don2'  Don1
4   10.7   11.3   11.9
5   13.1   12.9   13.9
6   15.6   15.0   16.1
7   18.1   17.3   18.2
8   20.6   19.6   20.4

Donating twice averages 10.7 turns to get 4 Provinces. This is faster than donating once, and keeps its edge except for all getting 8 Provinces as you might need versus alt VP.  In 2P, Don2 has 60% win rate over Don1 with both sides doing basic Duchy dancing.

Don2' is Don2 but getting Gold over Province turn 9, making it slower to 4 Provinces but faster for 5+ with better econ. I'm not sure which is better in a mirror, as they're very close with Duchy dancing enabled and it's hard to play optimally. Drawing less than $8 on turn 6 forces you into an equivalent to Don2'.
Logged

jonaskoelker

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 319
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +372
    • View Profile
Re: Donate + Windfall
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2018, 04:09:30 pm »
+1

This is my first time writing something like this so tell me how to make it less terrible please!

Brevity is the soul of Wit.  –Willy Shake

Your article is short, to the point, and easy to follow. You lead with the key idea, which I think is great, and you put it in some perspective by discussing its limitations. What more could one want?

When I write, I often waffle way more, going on and on about incidental minor points to the detriment of my sentence structure, than a Belgian stereotype. I could learn something from you.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.178 seconds with 21 queries.