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Author Topic: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.  (Read 2157 times)

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xyz123

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Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« on: January 20, 2018, 04:39:26 am »
+3

In the past in this section I noticed some people have posted a series of losses in order to improve, so I thought I would give it a go and see if it helps me get better. I posted a couple of threads recently and had some interesting responses.

Since deciding to give this a go, I came unstuck on the following board.




The game was Provinces/Estates. There were no events or landmarks.

The game id is 10805340

I forgot to copy the log first time around, so I went back into the game against the bot to copy it. This though transposed the users, so it shows me as my opponent (the winner) and Lord Rattington as me (the loser).

Code: [Select]
Game #10805340, unrated.
S starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
L starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 5 Coppers.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
S plays 5 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Margrave.
S draws 2 Coppers and 3 Estates.

Turn 1 - Lord Rattington
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 2 - Lord Rattington
L plays 5 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Margrave.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Salvager.
S draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 3 - Lord Rattington
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, 2 Estates, a Salvager and a Margrave.

Turn 4 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Margrave.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 3 cards.
S draws a Copper.
S discards a Copper, an Estate and a Margrave.
L plays 5 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Tournament.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
S plays a Salvager.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays a Copper.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S draws 4 Coppers and a Silver.

Turn 5 - Lord Rattington
L plays 4 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Salvager.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
S plays a Silver and 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Hireling.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Salvager.

Turn 6 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Margrave.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 3 cards.
S draws a Copper.
S discards 3 Coppers.
L plays 4 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Tournament.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
S plays a Salvager.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays a Copper.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Margrave.

Turn 7 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Margrave.
L draws 3 cards.
S draws a Hireling.
S discards a Copper, an Estate and a Hireling.
L plays 5 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Vault.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
S plays a Margrave.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Silvers and a Hireling.
L draws a card.
L discards 2 other cards and a Copper.
S plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Gold.
S draws 4 Coppers and a Salvager.

Turn 8 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Tournament.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws a card.
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Vault.
L draws 2 cards.
L discards a Salvager.
S discards 2 Coppers.
S draws an Estate.
L plays 3 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Gold.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
S plays a Salvager.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Gold.

Turn 9 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Margrave.
L draws 3 cards.
S draws a Copper.
S discards 3 Coppers.
L plays 4 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Tournament.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
S plays a Silver, a Gold and a Copper.
S buys and gains a Gold.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Salvager and a Margrave.

Turn 10 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Gold and 4 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Province.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
S plays a Margrave.
S draws 2 Silvers and a Hireling.
L draws a card.
L discards 2 other cards and a Vault.
S plays 3 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Margrave.

Turn 11 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Salvager.
L trashes an Estate.
L plays a Copper.
L buys and gains a Gladiator.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
S plays a Margrave.
S draws a Copper, a Silver and a Salvager.
L draws a card.
L discards 2 other cards and a Copper.
S plays 2 Silvers and 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Province.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Gold.

Turn 12 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Tournament.
L draws a card.
L plays a Gladiator.
L reveals a Gold.
S blocks with a Gold.
L plays a Gold and a Copper.
L buys and gains a Province.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
S plays a Silver, a Gold and 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Gold, a Province and a Hireling.

Turn 13 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Margrave.
L draws 3 cards.
S draws a Silver.
S discards a Copper, a Silver and a Province.
L plays 4 Coppers.
L buys and gains a Tournament.
L shuffles their deck.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
S plays a Hireling.
S plays a Silver and a Gold.
S buys and gains a Duchy.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Gold, a Province and a Margrave.

Turn 14 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Tournament.
L reveals a Province.
L discards a Province.
S reveals a Province.
L gains a Trusty Steed.
L plays a Margrave.
L draws 3 cards.
S draws a Copper.
S discards 2 Coppers and a Province.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S draws a Copper (Hireling).
S plays a Margrave.
S draws a Copper, a Silver and a Province.
L draws a card.
L discards 2 other cards and a Copper.
S plays 2 Silvers, a Gold and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Gold, a Province and a Salvager.

Turn 15 - Lord Rattington
L plays a Tournament.
L reveals a Province.
L discards a Province.
S reveals a Province.
L gains a Duchy.
L draws 5 cards.

Turn 16 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S draws a Gold (Hireling).
S plays a Salvager.
S trashes a Province.
S plays 2 Golds and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Province.

It's your buy phase, you may...
ē buy cards.

The only non-terminal actions in the supply are Tournament and Groundskeeper. I did think gaining Trusty Steed  (the only village) would be important as that might help enable something with the alt-vp available on this board. My opponent went for a money strategy and beat me quite comfortably.

I do think I played quite badly, as I wasn't fully convinced that my strategy was right and reacted to some of my opponents buys and I had too many terminals which resulted in bad hands. With hindsight I think early on I should have limited myself to a single terminal early on and gone harder for Tournament. I am unsure though as to whether that terminal should have been Salvager to get thin or Margrave mixed with some money for economy.

My gut feeling is that there is something better than the money strategy that my opponent played, but what is it?

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terminalCopper

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 05:52:29 am »
+4

Tournament is outstanding here, it's all about scoring 8$ ASAP. That makes salvager a strong opener. There's too many problems to set up an engine: no good copper trashing, (almost) no splitter, junking announced (followers), and margraves might attack you. That being said, despite the presence of wonderful payload cards like Groundskeeper/Wild Hunt, you should ignore these, because you'll never be able to chain them in a significant way.

Planning terminals is tricky. If you go for margrave, you donít want to have more than three or four terminals, e.g. salvager, 2 margraves, maybe followers. If you go for vaults, you can pick some more. Personally, IĎd still give a small edge to margrave over vault, because the attack nerfs vault the hard way (which would have been pretty nice here, if there weren't handsize attacks). Just don't overdo the margrave purchases, e. g. once you have one, buy gold with 6$.

Concerning prices, get Trusty Steed first, then Followers. Also, don't auto-play Steed as Lost City, these silvers are nice here.  By the way, I'd get Bag of Gold over princess.

A second salvager can be helpful in the endgame, salvaging a colliding terminal or a (bag's) gold.

I think it's not going to be a very interesting game, if both players focus on 8$->province->tournament, luck will be the most important factor. Just don't get distracted by engine fantasies. Itís sad to see so many powerhouses starve, but in this scenario, Gold is simply better.
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 03:29:41 am »
+1

Thanks for the comments and advice terminalCopper, the tips I am taking from that game is:
- Don't try and force an engine that will probably never come together just because there is good payload.
- Even if I am unsure about my initial plan, stick with it. If it turns out to be wrong I can consider why after the game.

Another game that I lost.




This was a Provinces/Shelters game.

Game Id 10838296 (I remembered to get the log for this one :))
Code: [Select]
Game #10838296, rated.
Miltontaylor: 48.69
SG252: 40.99

M starts with 6 Coppers, a Hovel, a Necropolis, an Overgrown Estate and a Haunted Mirror.
S starts with 6 Coppers, a Hovel, a Necropolis, an Overgrown Estate and a Haunted Mirror.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Overgrown Estate and a Haunted Mirror.

Turn 1 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays 4 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Magpie.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
S plays 3 Coppers and a Haunted Mirror.
S buys and gains a Magpie.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Hovel and a Necropolis.

Turn 2 - Miltontaylor
M plays 2 Coppers and a Haunted Mirror.
M buys and gains a Silver.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
S plays a Necropolis.
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Magpie and a Haunted Mirror.

Turn 3 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Haunted Mirror.
M puts a Haunted Mirror into their hand.
M plays a Silver, 3 Coppers and a Haunted Mirror.
M buys and gains a Cultist.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Silver, 4 Coppers and a Haunted Mirror.
S buys and gains a Cultist.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Hovel, a Necropolis and an Overgrown Estate.

Turn 4 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays 3 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Silver.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
S plays a Necropolis.
S plays 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Raze.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Necropolis, a Magpie, a Raze and a Haunted Mirror.

Turn 5 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Silver, 2 Coppers and a Haunted Mirror.
M buys and gains a Cultist.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Cultist.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Raze.
S trashes a Haunted Mirror.
S discards a Necropolis.
S gains a Ghost.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws 2 Coppers.
M gains a Survivors.
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Hovel and an Overgrown Estate.

Turn 6 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M gains a Magpie.
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Magpie.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
S plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Magpie.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Hovel and a Necropolis.

Turn 7 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Magpie.
M puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
M gains a Magpie.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
S gains a Ruined Library.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
S gains a Ruined Market.
M plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Cemetery.
M takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
M trashes 2 Coppers and a Haunted Mirror.
M discards a Magpie.
M gains a Ghost.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
S plays a Necropolis.
S plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Magpie.
S draws a Copper, an Overgrown Estate, 2 Magpies and a Raze.

Turn 8 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays a Survivors.
M shuffles their deck.
M looks at 2 cards.
M discards a card and an Overgrown Estate.
M plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Magpie.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Cultist.
S puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
S gains a Magpie.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Cultist.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Raze.
S trashes an Overgrown Estate.
S draws a Copper.
S looks at a Ghost.
S puts a Ghost into their hand.
S plays a Cultist.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper and a Silver.
M gains a Ruined Village.
S plays a Silver and 5 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Cultist.
S plays a Ghost.
S reveals a Hovel and a Ruined Library.
S discards a Hovel.
S sets a Ruined Library aside.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Necropolis and 2 Magpies.

Turn 9 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Ghost.
M puts a Ghost back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cemetery.
M puts a Cemetery back onto their deck.
M gains a Magpie.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
S gains a Ruined Village.
M plays a Cultist.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 2 cards.
S gains a Survivors.
M plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Cultist.
M plays a Ghost.
M reveals an Overgrown Estate and a Magpie.
M discards an Overgrown Estate.
M sets a Magpie aside.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Ruined Library.
S draws a Ruined Market.
S plays a Ruined Library again.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Ruined Village.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Cultist.
S reveals a Survivors.
S puts a Survivors back onto their deck.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Survivors.
S reveals a Cultist.
S puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
S plays a Necropolis.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws a Cultist and a Hovel.
M gains an Abandoned Mine.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws 2 Coppers.
M gains an Abandoned Mine.
S plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Cemetery.
S takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
S trashes a Hovel, a Ruined Market, a Ruined Village and a Survivors.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Magpie and a Raze.

Turn 10 - Miltontaylor
M starts their turn.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Magpie again.
M draws a card.
M shuffles their deck.
M reveals a Magpie.
M puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays a Survivors.
M looks at 2 cards.
M discards a card and a Magpie.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
S gains an Abandoned Mine.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
S gains an Abandoned Mine.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays 2 Silvers.
M buys a Cemetery.
M trashes a Hovel.
M gains a Cemetery.
M takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
M trashes a Copper, an Abandoned Mine, an Overgrown Estate and a Ruined Village.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws a card.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Magpie.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Magpie.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Necropolis.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Raze.
S trashes a Necropolis.
S looks at a Cultist.
S puts a Cultist into their hand.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws a Ruined Library and a Magpie.
S plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Cemetery.
S takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
S trashes 2 Coppers and a Ruined Library.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Cultist, a Magpie and a Ghost.

Turn 11 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Magpie.
M puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Survivors.
M puts a Survivors back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M plays an Abandoned Mine.
M plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Gold.
M plays a Ghost.
M reveals a Cultist.
M sets a Cultist aside.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws an Abandoned Mine.
S reveals a Silver.
S puts a Silver into their hand.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws an Abandoned Mine and a Cemetery.
S plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Cemetery.
S takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
S trashes 2 Abandoned Mines.
S plays a Ghost.
S shuffles their deck.
S reveals a Magpie.
S sets a Magpie aside.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Cultist, a Magpie and a Raze.

Turn 12 - Miltontaylor
M starts their turn.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Cultist.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Cultist again.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M plays a Magpie.
M plays a Magpie.
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays 2 Silvers and a Gold.
M buys and gains a Cemetery.
M takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
M trashes 2 Coppers, an Abandoned Mine and a Survivors.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Cemetery.
S reveals a Cemetery.
S puts a Cemetery back onto their deck.
S plays a Magpie again.
S draws a Cemetery.
S reveals a Magpie.
S puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Magpie.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Magpie.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws a Silver and a Cultist.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws a Magpie and a Cemetery.
S plays 2 Silvers and 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Magpie and 3 Cemeteries.

Turn 13 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cemetery.
M puts a Cemetery back onto their deck.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Magpie.
M puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Gold.
M puts a Gold into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Magpie.
M puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Cultist.
M plays 2 Silvers, a Copper and a Gold.
M buys and gains a Province.
M plays a Ghost.
M shuffles their deck.
M reveals a Province.
M discards a Province.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains an Estate.
S draws a Silver, a Cultist, 2 Magpies and a Ghost.

Turn 14 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Silver and a Copper.
M buys and gains a Silver.
M plays a Ghost.
M reveals a Cultist.
M sets a Cultist aside.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Raze.
S reveals a Silver.
S puts a Silver into their hand.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Province.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Raze.
S trashes a Raze.
S looks at a Cultist and a Magpie.
S puts a Cultist into their hand.
S discards a Magpie.
S plays a Cultist.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper and a Magpie.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws a Copper and a Cemetery.
S plays 2 Silvers and 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Cemetery.
S plays a Ghost.
S reveals a Copper, an Estate, a Magpie and 2 Cemeteries.
S discards a Copper, an Estate and 2 Cemeteries.
S sets a Magpie aside.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Silver, 2 Magpies and 2 Cemeteries.

Turn 15 - Miltontaylor
M starts their turn.
M plays a Cultist.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Cultist.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Cultist again.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Necropolis.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cemetery.
M puts a Cemetery back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Province.
M puts a Province back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
M plays a Magpie.
M plays 3 Silvers, a Copper and a Gold.
M buys and gains a Province.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Silver.
S reveals an Estate.
S puts an Estate back onto their deck.
S plays a Magpie again.
S draws an Estate.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Province.
S reveals a Cultist.
S puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Cultist.
S reveals a Cemetery.
S puts a Cemetery back onto their deck.
S plays a Cultist.
S draws a Magpie and a Cemetery.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays 2 Silvers and 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Duchy.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Cultist and 2 Cemeteries.

Turn 16 - Miltontaylor
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Province.
M puts a Province back onto their deck.
M plays a Magpie.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Cultist.
M puts a Cultist back onto their deck.
M plays a Copper and a Gold.
M buys and gains a Cemetery.
M draws 5 cards.

In this game we both went for the same strategy, Magpie/Cultist using Cemetery buys to clean up our decks. It was close.

I did have a dud turn 4 in which I drew 2 Coppers with the 3 Shelters. I am not sure how much of an impact this had. I believe it did contribute to me losing the Magpie split, but on the other hand I did buy a Raze on that turn and that enabled me to trash Haunted Mirror and get my Ghost in play earlier than my opponent.

We both played the endgame quite differently. Magpie and Ruins were out and Cemetery was getting low. I played it as more of a slog whilst my opponent concentrated more on building up their money, targeting the higher cost victory cards.

On turn 14 I took a calculated risk that either way would very likely be the game deciding moment. I bought the penultimate Cemetery giving me a 3 point lead. If my opponent couldn't buy a Province than I would probably win on my next turn. Unfortunately, they did spike a Province, I bought a Duchy and they got the final Cemetery for the win.  On the turn before they only had 3 coin to spend and on the final turn where they got the last Cemetery they had 7, so I don't think that was an unreasonable gamble.

Questions I have.
1) Were my endgame tactics in trying to slog it out right, or was my opponent right in building out a bit more, or is it that close it comes down to who has the right draws at the right time?
2) Do you want to buy Training on this board? There are several occasions where I thought it would have been useful, but whenever I could have bought it something else always seemed better.
3) Did both my opponent and myself go for the right strategy? There is an engine on this board.




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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 02:16:21 pm »
+1

Another defeat here. If I don't get any responses to this I will stop.




Provinces/Estates Game.

Game Id 10920722
Code: [Select]
Game #10920722, rated.
Stober: 46.4
SG252: 41.65

St starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
SG starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - Stober
St plays 2 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Patrician.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
SG plays 3 Coppers.
SG buys and gains a Silver.
SG draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 2 - Stober
St plays 5 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Minion.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
SG plays 4 Coppers.
SG buys and gains a Trader.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws 2 Coppers, a Silver and 2 Estates.

Turn 3 - Stober
St plays 5 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Minion.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
SG plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
SG buys and gains a Bishop.
SG draws 4 Coppers and a Trader.

Turn 4 - Stober
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals an Estate.
St plays a Minion.
St plays 2 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Sauna.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
SG plays 4 Coppers.
SG buys and gains an Ironmonger.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Trader.

Turn 5 - Stober
St plays 3 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Silver.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
SG plays a Trader.
SG trashes an Estate.
SG gains 2 Silvers.
SG plays 3 Coppers.
SG buys and gains a Workshop.
SG draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Bishop.

Turn 6 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays 4 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Sauna.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes an Estate.
SG gets 1 VP.
St trashes an Estate.
SG plays 3 Coppers.
SG buys and gains a Sauna.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and an Ironmonger.

Turn 7 - Stober
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Copper.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Minion.
St discards a card and a Copper.
St draws 4 cards.
SG discards 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and an Ironmonger.
SG draws 2 Coppers, a Silver and a Workshop.
St plays 3 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Sauna.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
SG plays a Workshop.
SG gains a Throne Room.
SG plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
SG buys and gains an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Copper, a Silver, a Bishop, a Trader and a Sauna.

Turn 8 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Silver.
St trashes a Copper and an Estate.
St plays 2 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Sauna.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
SG plays a Sauna.
SG draws a Copper.
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Copper.
St trashes an Estate.
SG plays a Silver.
SG trashes a Copper.
SG buys and gains a Silver.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws a Copper, a Silver, a Workshop, an Ironmonger and a Sauna.

Turn 9 - Stober
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Copper.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St discards a card and a Copper.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 4 cards.
SG discards a Copper, a Silver, a Workshop, an Ironmonger and a Sauna.
SG draws a Copper, 2 Silvers and a Throne Room.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Silver.
St trashes 2 Coppers.
St plays a Copper.
St buys a Seaway.
St gains a Mining Village.
St moves +Buy token to the Mining Village pile.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
SG plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
SG buys and gains a Minion.
SG draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Bishop.

Turn 10 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Sauna.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St plays 4 Coppers.
St buys and gains an Avanto.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Copper.
St trashes a Copper.
SG plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
SG buys and gains a Minion.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws a Silver, an Estate, a Trader, an Ironmonger and a Sauna.

Turn 11 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Minion.
St discards a card and a Silver.
St draws 4 cards.
SG discards a Silver, an Estate, a Trader, an Ironmonger and a Sauna.
SG draws a Silver, a Throne Room and 2 Minions.
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Sauna.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St plays a Silver.
St trashes a Copper.
St plays 2 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Gold.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays a Minion.
SG plays a Minion again.
SG plays a Minion.
SG discards a Silver.
SG draws a Copper, 2 Silvers and an Ironmonger.
St discards 4 other cards and a Silver.
St draws 4 cards.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Workshop.
SG reveals a Bishop.
SG topdecks a Bishop.
SG plays a Workshop.
SG gains an Ironmonger.
SG plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
SG buys and gains a Province.
SG takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws 3 Coppers, a Throne Room and a Bishop.

Turn 12 - Stober
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St draws a card.
St trashes a Mining Village.
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Gold.
St puts a card into their hand.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Gold and 2 Coppers.
St buys and gains a Gold and an Avanto.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Copper.
St trashes a Copper.
SG plays a Bishop again.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Copper.
SG plays a Copper.
SG buys and gains a Patrician.
SG draws a Silver, a Province, a Workshop and 2 Minions.

Turn 13 - Stober
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Sauna.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St plays a Sauna.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Silver.
St trashes a Copper.
St plays 2 Golds.
St buys and gains a Gold.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
SG plays a Minion.
SG plays a Minion.
SG discards a Silver, a Province and a Workshop.
SG draws a Copper, a Silver, an Ironmonger and a Sauna.
St discards 4 other cards and a Gold.
St draws 4 cards.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Silver.
SG reveals an Ironmonger.
SG topdecks an Ironmonger.
SG plays a Sauna.
SG draws an Ironmonger.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Silver.
SG reveals an Ironmonger.
SG topdecks an Ironmonger.
SG plays a Silver.
SG trashes a Copper.
SG plays 2 Silvers.
SG buys and gains a Province.
SG takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws 2 Silvers, an Estate, a Trader and an Ironmonger.

Turn 14 - Stober
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Gold.
St puts a card into their hand.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Silver and 3 Golds.
St buys and gains a Mining Village.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws an Ironmonger.
SG reveals a Minion.
SG topdecks a Minion.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Minion.
SG reveals a Patrician.
SG discards a Patrician.
SG plays a Minion.
SG discards 2 Silvers, an Estate and a Trader.
SG draws a Copper, a Bishop, an Ironmonger and a Sauna.
St discards 4 other cards and a Minion.
St draws 4 cards.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Province.
SG reveals a Workshop.
SG topdecks a Workshop.
SG plays a Sauna.
SG draws a Workshop.
SG plays a Workshop.
SG gains an Ironmonger.
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Copper.
SG draws 2 Silvers, a Province, a Throne Room and a Minion.

Turn 15 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St draws a card.
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Sauna.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 2 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Silver and 3 Golds.
St buys and gains a Province.
St takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
St buys and gains a Gold.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays a Minion.
SG plays a Minion again.
SG discards 2 Silvers and a Province.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws an Estate, a Workshop, a Minion and an Ironmonger.
St discards 4 other cards and a Sauna.
St draws 4 cards.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws an Ironmonger.
SG reveals a Silver.
SG discards a Silver.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Silver.
SG reveals a Silver.
SG discards a Silver.
SG plays a Workshop.
SG gains a Mining Village.
SG plays a Minion.
SG discards a Silver and an Estate.
SG draws a Silver, a Province and 2 Ironmongers.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Province.
SG reveals a Patrician.
SG discards a Patrician.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Trader.
SG reveals a Bishop.
SG topdecks a Bishop.
SG plays a Silver.
SG buys a Seaway.
SG gains an Ironmonger.
SG moves +Buy token to the Ironmonger pile.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws a Silver, a Province, a Bishop, a Trader and a Sauna.

Turn 16 - Stober
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Province.
St puts a card into their hand.
St plays a Minion.
St discards 3 other cards and a Province.
St draws 4 cards.
SG discards a Silver, a Province, a Bishop, a Trader and a Sauna.
SG draws a Silver, an Estate, a Workshop and an Ironmonger.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St shuffles their deck.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St discards 4 other cards and a Gold.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 4 cards.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Silver and 4 Golds.
St buys and gains a Province.
St takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
St buys and gains a Gold.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 16 - SG252
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Patrician.
SG reveals an Ironmonger.
SG topdecks an Ironmonger.
SG plays a Patrician.
SG draws an Ironmonger.
SG reveals a Silver.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Silver.
SG reveals a Mining Village.
SG topdecks a Mining Village.
SG plays a Workshop.
SG gains a Throne Room.
SG plays 2 Silvers.
SG buys and gains a Throne Room.
SG draws a Silver, a Throne Room, a Mining Village, a Minion and an Ironmonger.

Turn 17 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Province.
St puts a card into their hand.
St plays a Minion.
St discards 4 other cards and a Province.
St draws 4 cards.
SG discards a Silver, a Throne Room, a Mining Village, a Minion and an Ironmonger.
SG draws a Province, a Minion and 2 Ironmongers.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St draws a card.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St discards 2 other cards and a Gold.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 4 cards.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Silver and 5 Golds.
St buys and gains a Province.
St takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
St buys and gains a Province.
St takes 2 VP from Battlefield.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 17 - SG252
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws a Mining Village.
SG reveals a Silver.
SG discards a Silver.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Patrician.
SG reveals a Throne Room.
SG topdecks a Throne Room.
SG plays a Patrician.
SG draws a Throne Room.
SG reveals a Silver.
SG plays a Mining Village.
SG draws a Silver.
SG trashes a Mining Village.
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays a Minion.
SG plays a Minion again.
SG discards a Silver and a Province.
SG draws a Silver, an Estate, a Throne Room and a Minion.
St discards 4 other cards and a Gold.
St draws 4 cards.
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays a Minion.
SG plays a Minion again.
SG discards a Silver and an Estate.
SG draws a Province, a Throne Room, a Workshop and an Ironmonger.
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws an Ironmonger.
SG reveals a Sauna.
SG topdecks a Sauna.
SG plays an Ironmonger again.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Sauna.
SG reveals a Bishop.
SG topdecks a Bishop.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Bishop.
SG reveals an Ironmonger.
SG topdecks an Ironmonger.
SG plays a Sauna.
SG draws an Ironmonger.
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Silver.
SG reveals a Trader.
SG discards a Trader.
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Workshop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG plays a Silver.
SG buys and gains 2 Duchies.
SG shuffles their deck.
SG draws a Silver, 2 Duchies, a Bishop and an Ironmonger.

Turn 18 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Patrician.
St draws a card.
St reveals a Province.
St puts a card into their hand.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St shuffles their deck.
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St plays a Silver and 3 Golds.
St buys and gains a Duchy and a Province.
St shuffles their deck.
St draws 5 cards.

Turn 18 - SG252
SG plays an Ironmonger.
SG gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
SG draws a Throne Room.
SG reveals a Silver.
SG discards a Silver.
SG plays a Throne Room.
SG plays a Bishop.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Silver.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG plays a Bishop again.
SG gets 1 VP.
SG trashes a Duchy.
SG gets 2 VP.
SG buys and gains an Estate.
SG draws a Silver, a Province, an Ironmonger, a Patrician and a Sauna.

Turn 19 - Stober
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays an Avanto.
St draws 3 cards.
St plays a Sauna.
St draws a card.
St plays a Mining Village.
St gets +1 Buy (from Seaway)
St draws a card.
St plays a Minion.
St plays 4 Golds.
St buys and gains a Duchy and a Province.
St draws 5 cards.


I think my opponent did get lucky with a 5/2 opening and I did have some unlucky early draws with missing 5 or getting Minioned. However I think the main reason for the defeat was that their Sauna/Avanto engine idea was better than my attempts to put together a Minion engine with Throne Room,  Ironmonger and Bishop.

Was the Sauna/Avanto engine the best option here and which other cards on this board best enhance the deck? Most of the cards here look like they could have a place in a lot of engines.

One of the interesting features of this board is that there is no +buy on the kingdom cards but there is Seaway and a number of potential targets. Which is the best option?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 02:35:11 pm »
+2

Two Minions by turn 3 and a complementary 2-cost is a pretty hefty head start.
 
After seeing their 5/2, I probably would've gone the Sauna/Avanto route, maybe open Workshop/Sauna? Workshop seems really good here.

I don't think I would open buy Trader AND Bishop here. I'm not sure I buy either one. Including those two, 3 of your first 4 buys are terminals. It seems a little fortunate that none of them collided until Turn 7.

Just my two cents.
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DG

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 03:43:12 pm »
+1

In the magpie-cultist game I think you're spending too long buying the magpie and cultists and can prepare for the next stage sooner. A beggar can get silvers while you trash coppers and ruins with the cemetery for battlefield points. Training pays off very quickly. The 3 piles might empty so don't rely on a mid game period to restyle the deck.

In the sauna-minion game I think you've got to go for the sauna on 4/3. If you open sauna-silver you can maybe get a seaway and a workshop on the next two turns. Let the sauna trash and stay clear of the trader entirely. There might be a bishop based endgame here where you can gain a couple of cards with workshop each turn and trash them, but the workshops have plenty of time to set that up later and the seaway will generate enough buys for a likely provinces or 3 pile ending anyway.
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2018, 05:07:51 pm »
0

Thanks for the replies.

It has been a while since I have played with Sauna and I did forget it could trash. Looking back on the game, I am wondering if my opponent really was lucky with a 5/2 opening, as a 4/3 should have made me more likely to win the Sauna split if I had gone for it. I suppose it comes down to what happens during any Minion attacks, if it meant key cards were skipped or key price points missed then it could be considered an advantage. If I could have done as DG suggests and opened Sauna/Silver, followed by Seaway on Sauna and Workshop on my next two turns I would have been in a very strong position.
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2018, 02:37:04 pm »
+1

I had a little streak of victories, so maybe this is helping.  ;D

But that came to an end on this, which to me is quite an odd board.




Provinces/Estates game (and a Lucky Coin thanks to Fool).

Game id 10991661

Code: [Select]
Game #10991661, rated.
SG252: 43.27
Martin123: 49.23

S starts with 6 Coppers, 3 Estates and a Lucky Coin.
M starts with 6 Coppers, 3 Estates and a Lucky Coin.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Lucky Coin.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
S plays 2 Coppers and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S buys and gains a Black Market.
S draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 1 - Martin123
M plays 3 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Black Market.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Potion.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.

Turn 2 - Martin123
M plays 3 Coppers and a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M buys and gains a Chariot Race.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
S plays 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S buys and gains a Storyteller.
S draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Potion and a Black Market.

Turn 3 - Martin123
M plays 2 Coppers, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M buys and gains a Storyteller.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Masquerade, a Catacombs and a Squire.
S plays a Copper.
S gains a Masquerade.
S puts a Catacombs and a Squire on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Lucky Coin.

Turn 4 - Martin123
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M plays 3 Coppers.
M buys and gains a Fool.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
S plays 2 Coppers and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S buys and gains a Black Market.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Potion and a Storyteller.

Turn 5 - Martin123
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
S reveals an Estate.
M plays a Fool.
M takes Lost In The Woods.
M takes The Flame's Gift.
M takes The Sea's Gift.
M takes The Sun's Gift.
M receives The Flame's Gift
M trashes a Copper.
M gets 1 VP from Tomb.
M discards The Flame's Gift.
M receives The Sun's Gift
M reveals 4 cards.
M discards 2 other cards and an Estate.
M topdecks a card.
M discards The Sun's Gift.
M receives The Sea's Gift
M draws a card.
M discards The Sea's Gift.
M plays 2 Coppers and a Silver.
M buys and gains a Scheme.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays 2 Coppers and a Silver.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Masquerade and a Black Market.
S plays a Masquerade.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper and a Silver.
S passes an Estate to M.
M passes a Copper to S.
S trashes a Copper.
S gets 1 VP from Tomb.
S plays 2 Coppers, 2 Silvers and a Potion.
S buys and gains a Storyteller.
S draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Black Market.

Turn 6 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Swamp's Gift.
M receives The Swamp's Gift
M gains a Will-o'-wisp.
M discards The Swamp's Gift.
M plays 2 Coppers, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M buys a City Quarter.
M takes 8 debt.
M gains a City Quarter.
M repays 5 debt (3 remaining).
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Cutpurse, a Vineyard and a Magpie.
S plays 2 Coppers.
S gains a Magpie.
S puts a Cutpurse and a Vineyard on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Storyteller, a Lucky Coin and a Black Market.

Turn 7 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Scheme.
M draws a card.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays 2 Coppers and a Silver.
M draws 6 cards.
M plays a Will-o'-wisp.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Jester, a Dungeon and a Ranger.
M plays 2 Silvers and a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M plays 2 Coppers.
M puts a Jester, a Dungeon and a Ranger on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M repays 3 debt.
M buys a City Quarter.
M takes 8 debt.
M gains a City Quarter.
M repays 6 debt (2 remaining).
M topdecks a Storyteller.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays a Copper, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Masquerade, a Magpie and a Black Market.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Silver.
S reveals a Silver.
S puts a Silver into their hand.
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Potion and a Storyteller.
S passes a Copper to M.
M passes an Estate to S.
S trashes an Estate.
S gets 1 VP from Tomb.
S plays a Copper, 2 Silvers and a Potion.
S buys a City Quarter.
S takes 8 debt.
S gains a City Quarter.
S repays 5 debt (3 remaining).
S draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 8 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Field's Gift.
M receives The Field's Gift
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Storyteller, an Estate and a Copper.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws a card.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays 2 Coppers.
M draws 4 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals an Estate, a Silver, a Chariot Race and a Lucky Coin.
M draws a card.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Black Market.
M puts a Black Market into their hand.
S shuffles their deck.
S reveals a Silver.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Worker's Village, a Fortune Teller and a Treasure Trove.
M plays a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M plays 2 Silvers.
M puts a Worker's Village, a Fortune Teller and a Treasure Trove on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M repays 2 debt.
M buys and gains a Chariot Race.
M discards The Field's Gift.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
S plays 3 Coppers.
S repays 3 debt.
S draws 2 Silvers, a Lucky Coin and 2 Black Markets.

Turn 9 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The River's Gift.
M receives The River's Gift
M plays a Scheme.
M draws a card.
M plays 2 Coppers and 2 Silvers.
M buys and gains a Gold.
M topdecks a Scheme.
M discards The River's Gift.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 6 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Salvager, a Contraband and a Grand Market.
S plays 2 Silvers and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S gains a Grand Market.
S puts a Salvager and a Contraband on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Potion, a Storyteller and a City Quarter.

Turn 10 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Earth's Gift.
M receives The Earth's Gift
M discards a Copper.
M gains a Chariot Race.
M discards The Earth's Gift.
M plays a Will-o'-wisp.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Silver.
M topdecks a Silver.
M plays a Scheme.
M draws a card.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays a Silver.
M draws 3 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
S reveals a Masquerade.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Hoard, a Highway and a Port.
M plays a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M plays a Copper and a Silver.
M gains a Highway.
M puts a Hoard and a Port on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M topdecks a Storyteller.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays 2 Coppers.
S draws a Silver, a Masquerade and a Magpie.
S plays a City Quarter.
S reveals a Masquerade, a Silver, a Potion and a Magpie.
S draws a Silver and a Storyteller.
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays 2 Silvers.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Black Market.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Black Market.
S puts a Black Market back onto their deck.
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Silver and a Black Market.
S passes an Estate to M.
M passes a Copper to S.
S trashes a Copper.
S gets 1 VP from Tomb.
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Gardens, a Moneylender and a Treasury.
S plays 3 Coppers, 2 Silvers and a Potion.
S gains a Treasury.
S puts a Gardens and a Moneylender on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S buys and gains an Apothecary.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Grand Market and a Lucky Coin.

Turn 11 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Moon's Gift.
M receives The Moon's Gift
M looks at 15 cards.
M topdecks a card.
M discards The Moon's Gift.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays 2 Silvers.
M draws 5 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a City Quarter, an Estate, a Silver, a Chariot Race and a Black Market.
M draws 3 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals 2 Estates, a Copper, a Silver, a Chariot Race, a Black Market and a Gold.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Fool.
M puts a Fool into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Fool.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Militia, a Transmute and a Stables.
M plays a Copper.
M gains a Militia.
M puts a Transmute and a Stables on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M plays a Copper, 2 Silvers and a Gold.
M buys a City Quarter.
M takes 8 debt.
M gains a City Quarter.
M repays 8 debt.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
S plays a Grand Market.
S draws a Copper.
S plays 2 Coppers, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S buys a City Quarter.
S takes 8 debt.
S gains a City Quarter.
S repays 7 debt (1 remaining).
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Potion, a Storyteller and a Black Market.

Turn 12 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Forest's Gift.
M receives The Forest's Gift
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Chariot Race.
M puts a Chariot Race into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Highway.
M puts a Highway into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Highway.
M draws a card.
M plays a Will-o'-wisp.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
M plays a Scheme.
M draws a card.
M plays 2 Coppers and 2 Silvers.
M buys and gains a Province.
M topdecks a Highway.
M discards The Forest's Gift.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays a Copper and a Silver.
S draws 2 Silvers, a Storyteller and a City Quarter.
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays 2 Silvers.
S draws a Copper, a Masquerade, an Apothecary, a Magpie and a Black Market.
S plays a City Quarter.
S reveals a Masquerade, a Copper, 2 Black Markets, a Potion, a Magpie and an Apothecary.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, a Treasury and a Lucky Coin.
S plays an Apothecary.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Copper, a Silver, a Grand Market and a City Quarter.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S topdecks a Silver, a Grand Market and a City Quarter.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Grand Market.
S reveals a Silver.
S puts a Silver into their hand.
S plays a Treasury.
S draws a City Quarter.
S plays a City Quarter.
S reveals a Masquerade, 4 Coppers, 3 Silvers, 2 Black Markets, a Potion, a Lucky Coin and a Grand Market.
S draws an Estate.
S plays a Grand Market.
S plays a Masquerade.
S passes an Estate to M.
M passes a Silver to S.
S trashes a Copper.
S gets 1 VP from Tomb.
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Watchtower, an Embassy and a Raze.
S puts a Watchtower, an Embassy and a Raze on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Remodel, a Trading Post and a Farming Village.
S plays 4 Silvers and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S plays 3 Coppers and a Potion.
S puts a Remodel, a Trading Post and a Farming Village on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S repays 1 debt.
S buys and gains 2 Provinces.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Silvers, a Magpie and 2 City Quarters.

Turn 13 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Mountain's Gift.
M receives The Mountain's Gift
M gains a Silver.
M discards The Mountain's Gift.
M plays a Scheme.
M draws a card.
M plays a Highway.
M draws a card.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M plays a Copper.
M draws 3 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Copper, a Militia and a Silver.
M draws a card.
M plays a Militia.
S discards 2 Silvers.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Mine, a Witch and a Beggar.
M plays a Copper.
M gains a Mine.
M puts a Witch and a Beggar on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M plays a Silver.
M buys and gains a Chariot Race.
M topdecks a City Quarter.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
S plays a City Quarter.
S reveals a City Quarter and a Magpie.
S draws 2 Silvers.
S plays a Magpie.
S draws a Province.
S reveals a Storyteller.
S puts a Storyteller back onto their deck.
S plays a City Quarter.
S reveals 2 Silvers and a Province.
S plays 2 Silvers.
S buys and gains a Chariot Race.
S draws a Copper, a Potion, 2 Storytellers and a Black Market.

Turn 14 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards a Fool.
M takes The Sky's Gift.
M receives The Sky's Gift
M fails to discard for The Sky's Gift
M discards The Sky's Gift.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Silver, a Chariot Race and a Gold.
M draws a card.
M plays a Will-o'-wisp.
M draws a card.
M reveals an Estate.
M puts an Estate into their hand.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
S reveals an Apothecary.
M plays 2 Silvers and a Gold.
M buys and gains a Storyteller.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays a Copper.
S draws a Province and an Apothecary.
S plays an Apothecary.
S draws a Silver.
S reveals 3 Silvers and a Black Market.
S topdecks 3 Silvers and a Black Market.
S plays a Storyteller.
S plays a Silver.
S draws 2 Silvers and a Black Market.
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Diplomat, a Treasure Map and a Sage.
S puts a Diplomat, a Treasure Map and a Sage on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S plays 2 Silvers and a Potion.
S buys a City Quarter.
S takes 8 debt.
S gains a City Quarter.
S repays 6 debt (2 remaining).
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Treasury and a Lucky Coin.

Turn 15 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards a Copper.
M takes The Wind's Gift.
M receives The Wind's Gift
M draws 2 cards.
M discards a card and a Silver.
M discards The Wind's Gift.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a City Quarter and 2 Chariot Races.
M draws 3 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals an Estate, a Silver, 2 Chariot Races and a Province.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Fool.
M puts a Fool into their hand.
S reveals a Masquerade.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Silver.
M puts a Silver into their hand.
S reveals a Masquerade.
M plays a Scheme.
M draws a card.
M plays a Fool.
M plays a Copper and 2 Silvers.
M buys and gains a Storyteller.
M topdecks a City Quarter.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 16 - SG252
S plays a Treasury.
S draws a Masquerade.
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Copper and a Grand Market.
S passes a Copper to M.
M passes an Estate to S.
S trashes an Estate.
S gets 1 VP from Tomb.
S plays 2 Coppers, a Silver and a Lucky Coin.
S gains a Silver.
S repays 2 debt.
S buys and gains a Fool.
S topdecks a Treasury.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Silver, 2 Provinces, a Treasury and a Black Market.

Turn 16 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays a Copper and a Silver.
M draws 4 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a City Quarter, a Copper, a Chariot Race, a Black Market and a Lucky Coin.
M draws 3 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Copper, 2 Silvers, 2 Chariot Races, a Black Market and a Lucky Coin.
M draws 3 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Militia.
M puts a Militia into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M plays a Mine.
M trashes a Copper.
M gets 1 VP from Tomb.
M gains a Silver.
M plays a Militia.
S discards 2 Provinces.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Harbinger, a Steward and a Wharf.
M gains a Wharf.
M puts a Harbinger and a Steward on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M plays a Copper, 4 Silvers and a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M buys and gains a Province.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 17 - SG252
S plays a Treasury.
S draws a Silver.
S plays a Black Market.
S reveals a Shanty Town, a Ghost Ship and an Envoy.
S plays 2 Silvers.
S gains a Ghost Ship.
S puts a Shanty Town and an Envoy on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
S buys a City Quarter.
S takes 8 debt.
S gains a City Quarter.
S repays 2 debt (6 remaining).
S topdecks a Treasury.
S draws a Copper, a Masquerade, a Treasury, a Storyteller and a Lucky Coin.

Turn 17 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M discards an Estate.
M takes The Sun's Gift.
M receives The Sun's Gift
M shuffles their deck.
M reveals 4 cards.
M discards a Copper.
M topdecks 3 cards.
M discards The Sun's Gift.
M plays a Highway.
M draws a card.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays a Copper, a Silver and a Gold.
M draws 7 cards.
M plays a Will-o'-wisp.
M draws a card.
M reveals a City Quarter.
M topdecks a City Quarter.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a City Quarter.
M puts a City Quarter into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays 2 Silvers.
M draws 6 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals 2 City Quarters, a Wharf, 3 Silvers, a Black Market and 2 Provinces.
M draws 4 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a City Quarter, an Estate, a Wharf, 4 Silvers, a Black Market, a Mine, a Scheme and 2 Provinces.
M draws 5 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Storyteller, 3 Estates, a Wharf, 2 Coppers, 4 Silvers, a Black Market, a Mine, a Scheme and 2 Provinces.
M draws 5 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Fool.
M puts a Fool into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Wharf.
M draws 2 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M shuffles their deck.
M reveals a Copper.
M puts a Copper into their hand.
S reveals a Copper.
M plays a Scheme.
M plays a Mine.
M trashes a Copper.
M gets 1 VP from Tomb.
M gains a Silver.
M plays a Militia.
S discards a Copper and a Storyteller.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals a Relic, a Royal Carriage and a Cobbler.
M gains a Royal Carriage.
M puts a Relic and a Cobbler on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M plays 2 Coppers, 7 Silvers and a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M buys and gains 2 Provinces.
M topdecks a City Quarter.
M shuffles their deck.
M draws 5 cards.

Turn 18 - SG252
S plays a Treasury.
S draws a Copper.
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Silver and a City Quarter.
S passes a Copper to M.
M passes a Silver to S.
S trashes a Lucky Coin.
S gets 1 VP from Tomb.
S plays 2 Silvers.
S repays 5 debt (1 remaining).
S topdecks a Treasury.
S draws 2 Silvers, a Treasury, a City Quarter and a Black Market.

Turn 18 - Martin123
M starts their turn.
M draws 2 cards (Wharf).
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays a Copper and 2 Silvers.
M draws 6 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Fool, an Estate, 2 Chariot Races, a Lucky Coin, a Mine, a Will-o'-wisp and a Province.
M draws 5 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Province.
M puts a Province into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Will-o'-wisp.
M draws a card.
M reveals a Province.
M topdecks a Province.
M plays a Highway.
M draws a card.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Storyteller.
M puts a Storyteller into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M gets 1 VP.
M plays a Storyteller.
M plays a Lucky Coin.
M gains a Silver.
M plays 2 Silvers.
M draws 8 cards.
M plays a City Quarter.
M reveals a Fool, an Estate, a Militia, 5 Silvers, a Chariot Race, a Mine, a Gold, a Royal Carriage and 4 Provinces.
M draws 5 cards.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals an Estate.
M puts an Estate into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M plays a Chariot Race.
M reveals a Black Market.
M puts a Black Market into their hand.
S reveals a Silver.
M plays a Royal Carriage.
M puts a Royal Carriage on their Tavern mat.
M plays a Mine.
M trashes a Copper.
M gets 1 VP from Tomb.
M gains a Silver.
M calls a Royal Carriage.
M plays a Mine again.
M trashes a Copper.
M gets 1 VP from Tomb.
M gains a Silver.
M plays a Militia.
S discards 2 Silvers.
M plays a Black Market.
M reveals an Altar, a Band of Misfits and a Guardian.
M puts an Altar, a Band of Misfits and a Guardian on the bottom of the Black Market Deck.
M plays a Copper, 8 Silvers and a Gold.
M buys and gains 2 Provinces.
M draws 5 cards.

As I said a strange board, no trashing, no plus buy, no gainers in the kingdom cards but there is bound to be something in the Black Market to make an engine worthwhile.

To me the option here was to build a Storyteller/City Quarter/Black Market engine and hope what I can pull out of the BM is better than what my opponent does.

I think the deciding moment was when my opponent pulled Militia out of the Black Market. At that point both engines were beginning to come together, we could both draw our decks but not yet consistently. When starting with 3 card hands a deck based around Storyteller and City Quarter is very unlikely to kick off, especially here when you will not have the opportunity to get thin.

I think I undervalued Fool on this board, I didn't go for it and my opponent did. Yes, it is unpredictable, but on this board you have a good chance of getting something from a Boon that none of the kingdom cards offer.

Is there anything else you can do here apart from building the engine and hope you get some good payload from Black Market? If not, is there anything that I could have done to have tilted the odds in my favour?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 02:52:13 pm »
+2

Some sort of Apothecary/Storyteller thing might be fun while you sift through the Black Market.

I'd probably open BM/Potion.
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aku_chi

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 03:42:21 pm »
+3

Scheme + City Quarter is a synergy.  But, Lucky Coin and Raid might push you towards Storyteller for draw.  Scheme + Storyteller also has some synergy.  Tomb and Chariot Race encourage building, so I think I'd open with Black Market and Potion.  Apothecary + Chariot Race is a little synergy.  There's a lot of stuff going on here, but I'd want to pick up trashing and payload from the Black Market (and cheap villages to support them).  As you discovered, a handsize attack really hurts City Quarter draw here.  I don't know about Fool.  Lost in the Woods doesn't play nicely with Scheme + City Quarter + Storyteller.  I think I'd skip it.
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DG

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 05:16:31 pm »
+2

On turn 5 you buy a second black market when a scheme would help you get the masquerade or existing black market played more often. The masquerade is a top quality card here and could use support from a city quarter quite quickly.
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2018, 02:40:00 pm »
0

Oh dear, another defeat  :'(




Provinces/Estates game

Game Id 11023826
Code: [Select]
Game #11023826, rated.
Freaky: 46.93
SG252: 42.55

F starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
S starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 1 - Freaky
F plays 4 Coppers.
F buys and gains a Taxman.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Sauna.
S draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 2 - Freaky
F plays 3 Coppers.
F buys and gains a Masquerade.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Masquerade.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 3 - Freaky
F plays a Taxman.
F trashes a Copper.
S discards a Copper.
F gains a Silver.
F plays 3 Coppers.
F buys and gains a Silver.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Masquerade.

Turn 4 - Freaky
F plays a Masquerade.
F draws 2 cards.
F passes an Estate to S.
S passes an Estate to F.
F trashes an Estate.
F plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
F buys and gains a Relic.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Copper and a Sauna.
S passes an Estate to F.
F passes an Estate to S.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Sauna.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 4 Coppers and a Sauna.

Turn 5 - Freaky
F plays a Taxman.
F trashes a Copper.
S discards a Copper.
F gains a Silver.
F plays a Silver and a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains a Sauna.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
S plays a Sauna.
S skips a draw (because of Relic)
S moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Masquerade.

Turn 6 - Freaky
F plays 2 Silvers and 3 Coppers.
F buys and gains a Forge.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Copper and a Sauna.
S passes an Estate to F.
F passes an Estate to S.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Menagerie.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Masquerade and a Menagerie.

Turn 7 - Freaky
F plays a Masquerade.
F draws 2 cards.
F passes an Estate to S.
S passes an Estate to F.
F trashes an Estate.
F plays 4 Coppers.
F buys and gains a Sauna.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals a Silver, a Copper, an Estate and a Masquerade.
S draws 2 Coppers and a Sauna.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Copper.
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Copper and a Sauna.
S passes an Estate to F.
F passes a Copper to S.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Gold.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Menagerie and a Sauna.

Turn 8 - Freaky
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Forge.
F trashes an Estate and a Taxman.
F gains a Gold.
F plays 2 Silvers.
F buys and gains a Sauna.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals 3 Coppers and a Sauna.
S draws a Sauna.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Masquerade.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Silver.
S plays a Masquerade.
S draws a Copper and a Gold.
S passes a Copper to F.
F passes a Silver to S.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver.
S trashes 2 Coppers.
S plays a Silver and a Gold.
S buys and gains an Avanto.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Masquerade and an Avanto.

Turn 9 - Freaky
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Forge.
F trashes a Copper.
F gains a Copper.
F plays a Silver, a Copper and a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains an Avanto.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
S plays an Avanto.
S skips a draw (because of Relic)
S moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
S draws a Menagerie and a Sauna.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Silver.
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals 2 Silvers, 2 Coppers and a Masquerade.
S draws a Sauna.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Gold.
S plays a Masquerade.
S passes a Copper to F.
F passes a Copper to S.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver and a Gold.
S buys and gains an Avanto.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Silver, a Gold, a Masquerade and 2 Avantos.

Turn 10 - Freaky
F plays a Masquerade.
F draws 2 cards.
F passes a Copper to S.
S passes a Silver to F.
F trashes a Copper.
F plays 2 Silvers, a Copper and a Gold.
F buys and gains an Avanto.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Silver and 2 Saunas.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Menagerie.
S plays an Avanto.
S plays a Sauna.
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Masquerade.
S plays a Masquerade.
S passes a Copper to F.
F passes an Estate to S.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays a Silver and a Gold.
S buys and gains an Avanto.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Gold, a Masquerade, a Menagerie and 2 Saunas.

Turn 11 - Freaky
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Forge.
F trashes 2 Coppers and a Silver.
F gains a Menagerie.
F plays a Gold.
F buys and gains a Menagerie.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
S plays a Sauna.
S draws an Avanto.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Silver and 2 Avantos.
S plays a Sauna.
S plays an Avanto.
S plays a Silver and a Gold.
S buys and gains a Relic.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Gold, a Masquerade, a Relic, a Sauna and an Avanto.

Turn 12 - Freaky
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays an Avanto.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays an Avanto.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Masquerade.
F draws 2 cards.
F passes a Copper to S.
S passes a Masquerade to F.
F trashes a Silver.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Silver, a Copper, a Menagerie, a Sauna, a Gold, a Relic, a Forge and a Masquerade.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Silver, a Copper, a Sauna, a Gold, a Relic, a Forge and a Masquerade.
F plays a Sauna.
F plays a Silver and a Copper.
F trashes a Forge.
F plays a Gold and a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains a Province.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
S plays a Sauna.
S skips a draw (because of Relic)
S moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Silver, a Sauna and an Avanto.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws an Avanto.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Menagerie.
S plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Relic.
F moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Gold, a Province, a Menagerie, a Sauna and an Avanto.

Turn 13 - Freaky
F plays a Sauna.
F skips a draw (because of Relic)
F moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
F plays an Avanto.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Menagerie, a Province, a Gold, a Masquerade and a Relic.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Copper, a Province, a Sauna, a Gold, a Masquerade, a Relic and an Avanto.
F draws 2 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F plays an Avanto.
F plays a Silver, a Copper and a Gold.
F trashes 2 Masquerades.
F plays a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains a Province.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
S plays a Sauna.
S skips a draw (because of Relic)
S moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Silver, a Relic and an Avanto.
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals a Silver, a Province, a Gold, a Relic and an Avanto.
S draws a Copper, a Sauna and an Avanto.
S plays a Sauna.
S plays an Avanto.
S plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Relic.
F moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Provinces, a Menagerie and 2 Avantos.

Turn 14 - Freaky
F plays a Sauna.
F skips a draw (because of Relic)
F moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
F plays an Avanto.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Silver, a Copper, 2 Provinces and a Relic.
F draws a card.
F plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains a Province.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals 2 Provinces and 2 Avantos.
S skips a draw (because of Relic)
S moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Silver, a Gold and a Sauna.
S plays a Sauna.
S draws a Copper.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Relic, a Sauna and an Avanto.
S plays a Sauna.
S plays an Avanto.
S plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Relic.
F moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Provinces, a Menagerie, a Relic and an Avanto.

Turn 15 - Freaky
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Copper, a Menagerie, a Province and an Avanto.
F skips a draw (because of Relic)
F moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
F draws 2 cards.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Silver, a Copper, a Province, a Sauna and an Avanto.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays an Avanto.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays an Avanto.
F plays a Sauna.
F plays a Sauna.
F plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains a Province.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
S plays a Menagerie.
S reveals 2 Provinces, a Relic and an Avanto.
S skips a draw (because of Relic)
S moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
S plays an Avanto.
S draws a Silver and 2 Avantos.
S plays a Silver and a Relic.
F moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
S buys and gains an Estate.
S draws a Copper, a Gold, a Province and 2 Saunas.

Turn 16 - Freaky
F plays an Avanto.
F skips a draw (because of Relic)
F moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
F draws 2 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays an Avanto.
F draws 3 cards.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Silver, a Copper, a Menagerie, 3 Provinces and a Gold.
F draws a card.
F plays a Menagerie.
F reveals a Silver, a Copper, 3 Provinces, a Gold and a Relic.
F draws a card.
F plays a Sauna.
F draws a card.
F plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Relic.
S moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
F buys and gains a Province.
F shuffles their deck.
F draws 5 cards.

Taking on board the comments from my previous Sauna/Avanto game I went for it here. Thanks for the advice.  :)

This was a very close game, we both went for a similar strategy and at the end had very similar deck compositions. Not counting victory cards I had 1 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Relic, 1 Menagerie, 2 Saunas and 3 Avantos. My opponent had 1 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Relic, 2 Menageries, 3 Saunas and 2 Avantos.

We were both matching each other Province for Province and looked on for a draw but I dudded on turn 15 when the Avanto I initially played didn't draw a Sauna. I don't just want to put it down to luck though, to improve I need to try and learn from it.
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aku_chi

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2018, 03:41:17 pm »
+2

Why didn't you buy a Silver on turn 3?  Also, I would have bought another Silver on turn 6.  It's good to have two Silvers early when you're pursuing Saunas.  I would also have considered Sauna + Silver or Masquerade + Silver openings on turn 1.  Sauna + Masquerade seems inelegant; the Sauna is probably worse than nothing on turn 3+4.

I wonder if Masquerade money beats uncontested Sauna + Avanto on that board.  It takes a long time to get to Avantos if you have to do it yourself.  It will be more convenient for the Masquerade player to get 9-12 Palace points.  On the flip side, Relic will help the Sauna + Avanto player more.  My idea would be to open Masquerade + Silver, get a Relic or two, a second Masquerade, and Golds.  I'd keep 4 Copper around for potential Palace points.  I'm not sure if a Hoard pays off.  Probably?  Silver will actually be the least convenient of the Palace treasures to get, I expect.  If you're ahead on points, keep focusing on Provinces.  If it's close, look to get the Palace advantage.
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2018, 04:16:30 pm »
0

The simple answer is that I forgot about Borrow on turn 3.  :-[

How quick is Masquerade BM? Given it took me and my opponent 15/16 turns to split the Province pile 5/3, it sounds like it could have won.
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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2018, 04:21:32 pm »
+2

There's plenty of other trashing and +Actions, so I don't think the Sauna split will be that important. I'd open Potion-Masquerade. Aim to get multi-Province turns using Forge + University to gain extra actions. Avanto will be good draw, but there's enough other +Actions that getting lots of Saunas isn't critical. Get one Relic for the attack. If the opponent plays Masquerade + money, you may want to hit them with Taxman on any turn where they started with a 5 card hand (you can turn Gold--> Gold just for the attack). One problem I see with this plan is that it doesn't take very good advantage of Palace. But it would sure be fun!
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aku_chi

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 04:59:07 pm »
+2

How quick is Masquerade BM? Given it took me and my opponent 15/16 turns to split the Province pile 5/3, it sounds like it could have won.

Unassisted, unattacked Masquerade money gets to 5 Provinces in ~14-15 turns.  Being attacked by Relic, it might slow that down a smidgen, though Borrow helps with consistency.  Also, if the Masquerade player gets to 4 Provinces (on, say, turn 13 or 14) but has more Palace points (which is almost guaranteed), the Sauna + Avanto player wouldn't be able to grab the last Province and doesn't have multiple gains, so I think the Masquerade + money player has the edge.  Also keep in mind that the Sauna + Avanto player is slowed down when they need to grab all five Saunas.

There's plenty of other trashing and +Actions, so I don't think the Sauna split will be that important. I'd open Potion-Masquerade. Aim to get multi-Province turns using Forge + University to gain extra actions. Avanto will be good draw, but there's enough other +Actions that getting lots of Saunas isn't critical. Get one Relic for the attack. If the opponent plays Masquerade + money, you may want to hit them with Taxman on any turn where they started with a 5 card hand (you can turn Gold--> Gold just for the attack). One problem I see with this plan is that it doesn't take very good advantage of Palace. But it would sure be fun!

Hmm.. if the engine could set up a consistent Taxman on Gold + Relic attack, that could spell defeat for Masquerade + money (if it was set up before Masquerade + money got to 6 Provinces).  I'm skeptical that the University engine would be so quick to get through all of the Saunas to get decent draw.  Then again, maybe Menagerie is sufficient draw once you trash most Coppers...  It would be an exciting challenge for the engine player.
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2018, 04:48:36 am »
0

An old-school Dominion game with none of the mechanics from the newer expansions (although there are cards from them).




Provinces/Estates. No events or landmarks.

Code: [Select]
Game #11043031, rated.
SG252: 41.79
Any2Cards: 50.52

S starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
A starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 5 Coppers.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
S plays 5 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Margrave.
S draws 2 Coppers and 3 Estates.

Turn 1 - Any2Cards
A plays 4 Coppers.
A buys and gains an Amulet.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Margrave.

Turn 2 - Any2Cards
A plays 3 Coppers.
A buys and gains a Market Square.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
S plays a Margrave.
S draws 3 Coppers.
A draws a card.
A discards 2 other cards and a Copper.
S plays 6 Coppers.
S buys and gains 2 Amulets.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers and 3 Estates.

Turn 3 - Any2Cards
A plays an Amulet.
A trashes a Copper.
A reacts with a Market Square.
A discards a Market Square.
A gains a Gold.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
S draws 3 Coppers, a Margrave and an Amulet.

Turn 4 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A trashes an Estate.
A plays 3 Coppers.
A buys and gains an Amulet.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
S plays a Margrave.
S draws 2 Coppers and an Amulet.
A draws a card.
A discards 2 other cards and a Copper.
S plays 5 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Minion.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and an Amulet.

Turn 5 - Any2Cards
A plays an Amulet.
A trashes a Copper.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes an Estate.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and an Amulet.

Turn 6 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A trashes an Estate.
A reacts with a Market Square.
A discards a Market Square.
A gains a Gold.
A plays an Amulet.
A trashes a Copper.
A plays a Gold.
A buys and gains a Village.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays 2 Coppers.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Minion, a Margrave and an Amulet.

Turn 7 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A trashes an Estate.
A reacts with a Market Square.
A discards a Market Square.
A gains a Gold.
A plays an Amulet.
A trashes a Copper.
A plays a Gold.
A buys and gains a Village.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Margrave.
S draws 3 Coppers.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a card.
A discards 2 other cards and a Village.
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Village and a Market Square.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Village and a Margrave.

Turn 8 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A plays an Amulet.
A gains a Silver.
A plays a Copper and a Gold.
A buys and gains a Margrave.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
S plays a Village.
S draws a Minion.
S plays a Margrave.
S draws 2 Coppers and an Amulet.
A draws a card.
A discards 2 other cards and a Market Square.
S plays a Minion.
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Minion.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Village, a Minion, a Market Square and an Amulet.

Turn 9 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A trashes a Copper.
A plays 2 Golds.
A buys and gains a Grand Market.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S trashes a Copper.
S reacts with a Market Square.
S discards a Market Square.
S gains a Gold.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Margrave.
S plays a Margrave.
S draws 2 Coppers and a Minion.
A draws a card.
A discards 2 other cards and a Copper.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S discards 2 Coppers and an Amulet.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers and a Market Square.
S plays a Market Square.
S draws a Gold.
S plays 3 Coppers and a Gold.
S buys and gains a Village and a Minion.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, a Village and an Amulet.

Turn 10 - Any2Cards
A plays a Village.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a card.
A plays a Margrave.
A draws 3 cards.
S draws a Copper.
S discards 3 Coppers.
A plays an Amulet.
A trashes a Copper.
A plays a Silver and 2 Golds.
A buys and gains a Grand Market.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
S plays a Village.
S draws a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S discards a Copper and an Amulet.
S draws 2 Minions, a Margrave and an Amulet.
A discards 4 other cards and a Market Square.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 4 cards.
S plays a Margrave.
S draws a Gold, a Village and a Market Square.
A draws a card.
A discards a card and an Amulet.
S plays a Village.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper.
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes a Copper.
S reacts with a Market Square.
S discards a Market Square.
S gains a Gold.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S discards a Gold.
S draws 3 Coppers and an Amulet.
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Village.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Gold, a Village, a Minion and a Margrave.

Turn 11 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Margrave.
A draws 3 cards.
S draws a Gold.
S discards a Copper and 2 Golds.
A plays 2 Golds.
A buys and gains a Village and a Grand Market.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Market Square.
S plays a Margrave.
S draws a Village and 2 Minions.
A draws a card.
A discards 2 other cards and a Village.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Village.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Copper.
S plays a Market Square.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Gold.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Gold.
S buys and gains a Grand Market and a Charm.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, 2 Golds and a Village.

Turn 12 - Any2Cards
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Silver and 2 Golds.
A buys and gains 2 Grand Markets.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
S plays a Village.
S draws an Amulet.
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Copper and 2 Golds.
S buys and gains a Minion.
S draws 2 Villages, 2 Minions and a Grand Market.

Turn 13 - Any2Cards
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Margrave.
A draws 3 cards.
S draws a Minion.
S discards 2 Villages and a Minion.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays an Amulet.
A trashes a Copper.
A reacts with a Market Square.
A discards a Market Square.
A gains a Gold.
A plays an Amulet.
A gains a Silver.
A plays a Silver and 2 Golds.
A buys and gains 3 Grand Markets.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Grand Market.
S draws a Margrave.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S discards a Margrave.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Minion, a Market Square, an Amulet and a Charm.
A discards 4 other cards and a Gold.
A draws 4 cards.
S plays a Market Square.
S draws a Copper.
S plays a Minion.
S discards a Copper, an Amulet and a Charm.
S draws a Gold, 2 Villages and a Minion.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Gold.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Margrave.
S plays a Margrave.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Village and an Amulet.
A draws a card.
A discards a card and a Grand Market.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Charm.
S plays an Amulet.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Charm and 2 Golds.
S buys a Grand Market.
S gains a Gold.
S gains a Grand Market.
S buys and gains a City.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Gold, 3 Minions and an Amulet.

Turn 14 - Any2Cards
A starts their turn.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Margrave.
A draws 3 cards.
S draws a Gold.
S discards 2 Golds and an Amulet.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a card.
A plays 2 Silvers and 3 Golds.
A buys and gains a Province, 2 Cities and a Margrave.
A draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Minion.
S draws a Village, a Minion, a City and a Grand Market.
A discards 4 other cards and a Gold.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 4 cards.
S plays a Grand Market.
S draws a Charm.
S plays a City.
S draws a Village and a Market Square.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Village.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Grand Market.
S plays a Village.
S draws a Gold.
S plays a Grand Market.
S draws a Margrave.
S plays a Margrave.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Golds and an Amulet.
A draws a card.
A discards a card and a Gold.
S plays a Market Square.
S plays an Amulet.
S plays a Minion.
S plays a Charm and 3 Golds.
S buys a City.
S gains a Minion.
S gains a City.
S buys and gains 3 Minions.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Villages, a Minion and a City.

Turn 15 - Any2Cards
A plays a City.
A draws 2 cards.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Margrave.
A draws 3 cards.
S draws a City.
S discards 3 Villages.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A draws a card.
A plays a Margrave.
A draws 3 cards.
S draws a Margrave.
S discards a Minion.
A plays a City.
A draws 2 cards.
A plays a Grand Market.
A draws a card.
A plays a Village.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a card.
A plays a Market Square.
A draws a card.
A plays an Amulet.
A plays an Amulet.
A plays 2 Silvers and 4 Golds.
A buys and gains 2 Estates, a Province, 4 Villages and 2 Minions.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 5 cards.

My opponent for this game is ranked about 9 levels higher than me, so losing probably isn't surprising. Interestingly, since I started this thread I haven't lost to anyone ranked lower than me.

I think my biggest mistake in this game was focusing too much on getting thin at the expense of early economy. Having a 5/2 opening didn't help as I think on this board 4/3 is better. My opponent opened Amulet/Market Square, which meant he gained Golds as he trashed  from the start to help is economy. Had I opened 4/3 I would have gone double Amulet and look to pick up a Market Square on my second shuffle. Would this have been better or not?

In the early game I believe I made a tactical error in prioritising trashing Coppers above buying a Market Square. The end result was that my opponent was in a position to buy Grand Markets a lot earlier than I was and heavily losing the Grand Market split was the deciding factor in the game.

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DG

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 09:04:27 am »
0

On turn 3 you buy two amulets and they should be amulet and village. I think opening with amulet is about as good as opening with margrave on 5/2. Your margrave drew 6 coppers on turn 3 but if it had just drawn 5 you would be stuck with buying just the amulet anyway.

Your opponent trashed very heavily, 7 starting cards by turn 7, so it's wrong to think of that deck being congested with treasures. The early gold actually allowed your opponent to buy cards even when trashing cards or discarding down to 3 cards. I still don't think you need to get the market square immediately, but perhaps it does need to come earlier than usual because of the margrave.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 11:47:16 am »
+2

I believe in storyteller/market square, enabled by two amulets played every other turn. Ironically, I would open Courtier anyway, because itĎs best for spiking 5, and doesnít collide with amulet. A short plan:

T3/4 Gain Gold, buy 2 amulets
T5/6/7 hopefully gain two storytellers, one market square, trash three cards -> good odds to already draw deck

After that: more storytellers, more market squares, more gold (with this priority), maybe add a village for mid-turn shenanigans with amulet/market square.
 
It should be easy to enable market squares and make the deck explode, because storytellers with cheap golds draw like hell.
.

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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2018, 02:21:57 pm »
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Another game against an opponent ranked about 9 levels above me.




Colonies/Estates Game

Game Id 11163277

Code: [Select]
Game #11163277, rated.
SG252: 42.08
milkyholmes: 51.77

S starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
m starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - SG252
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Moneylender.
S draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - milkyholmes
m plays 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Ratcatcher.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - SG252
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Ratcatcher.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Moneylender and a Ratcatcher.

Turn 2 - milkyholmes
m plays 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Moneylender.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - SG252
S plays a Ratcatcher.
S draws an Estate.
S puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
S plays a Moneylender.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Copper.
S buys and gains a Bard.
S draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 3 - milkyholmes
m plays 3 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Silver.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S calls a Ratcatcher.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays 4 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Bard.

Turn 4 - milkyholmes
m plays a Ratcatcher.
m draws a card.
m puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Poacher.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - SG252
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Swamp's Gift.
S receives The Swamp's Gift
S gains a Will-o'-wisp.
S discards The Swamp's Gift.
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Silver.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Moneylender.

Turn 5 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m calls a Ratcatcher.
m trashes an Estate.
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Library.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - SG252
S plays a Moneylender.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver and a Copper.
S buys a Lost Arts.
S moves +Action token to the Patrician pile.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Ratcatcher.

Turn 6 - milkyholmes
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Library.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - SG252
S plays a Ratcatcher.
S draws an Estate.
S puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
S plays 3 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Patrician.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Bard and a Will-o'-wisp.

Turn 7 - milkyholmes
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Silver and a Copper.
m buys a Lost Arts.
m moves +Action token to the Library pile.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S plays a Will-o'-wisp.
S draws a Silver.
S reveals a Moneylender.
S topdecks a Moneylender.
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Field's Gift.
S receives The Field's Gift
S plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
S buys and gains a Platinum.
S discards The Field's Gift.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Moneylender.

Turn 8 - milkyholmes
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 2 cards.
m looks at a card.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a card.
m plays a Ratcatcher.
m draws a card.
m puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Silver and 4 Coppers.
m buys and gains a Gold.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S calls a Ratcatcher.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays a Moneylender.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver and a Copper.
S buys and gains a Library.
S draws a Copper, an Estate, a Patrician, a Bard and a Will-o'-wisp.

Turn 9 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m calls a Ratcatcher.
m trashes an Estate.
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Silver.
m buys and gains a Library.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - SG252
S plays a Will-o'-wisp.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Platinum.
S topdecks a Platinum.
S plays a Patrician.
S gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
S draws a Platinum.
S reveals a Silver.
S plays a Bard.
S takes The River's Gift.
S receives The River's Gift
S plays 2 Coppers and a Platinum.
S buys and gains a Platinum.
S discards The River's Gift.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Library and 2 Platina.

Turn 10 - milkyholmes
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m draws a card.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Silver, 2 Coppers and a Gold.
m buys and gains a Platinum.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - SG252
S plays a Library.
S draws a Bard.
S looks at a Bard.
S sets a Bard aside with Library.
S draws a Copper and a Will-o'-wisp.
S looks at a Will-o'-wisp.
S sets a Will-o'-wisp aside with Library.
S draws a Copper.
S discards a Bard and a Will-o'-wisp.
S plays a Silver, 3 Coppers and 2 Platina.
S buys and gains a Colony.
S draws a Copper, a Silver, a Moneylender, a Ratcatcher and a Patrician.

Turn 11 - milkyholmes
m plays a Ratcatcher.
m draws a card.
m puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m draws 2 cards.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Silver, a Copper, a Gold and a Platinum.
m buys and gains a Colony.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - SG252
S plays a Ratcatcher.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Will-o'-wisp.
S puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
S plays a Will-o'-wisp.
S draws a Bard.
S reveals a Copper.
S puts a Copper into their hand.
S plays a Patrician.
S gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Silver.
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Earth's Gift.
S receives The Earth's Gift
S discards a Copper.
S gains a Bard.
S discards The Earth's Gift.
S plays a Moneylender.
S trashes a Copper.
S plays a Silver and a Copper.
S buys and gains a Library.
S draws a Silver, an Estate, a Library, a Colony and a Platinum.

Turn 12 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 3 cards.
m looks at a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Moneylender.
m trashes a Copper.
m plays a Silver, a Gold and a Platinum.
m buys and gains a Colony.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S calls a Ratcatcher.
S trashes an Estate.
S plays a Library.
S draws a Copper and a Platinum.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Silver and a Bard.
S looks at a Bard.
S sets a Bard aside with Library.
S draws a Will-o'-wisp.
S looks at a Will-o'-wisp.
S sets a Will-o'-wisp aside with Library.
S draws a Copper.
S discards a Bard and a Will-o'-wisp.
S plays 2 Silvers, 2 Coppers and 2 Platina.
S buys and gains a Colony.
S draws a Copper, a Library, a Moneylender, a Patrician and a Bard.

Turn 13 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m calls a Ratcatcher.
m trashes a Moneylender.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 3 cards.
m looks at a card.
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m sets a card aside with Library.
m discards a Library.
m plays a Silver, a Gold and a Platinum.
m buys and gains a Colony.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - SG252
S plays a Patrician.
S gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
S shuffles their deck.
S draws a Silver.
S reveals a Library.
S puts a Library into their hand.
S plays a Library.
S draws a Copper and a Silver.
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Flame's Gift.
S receives The Flame's Gift
S trashes a Copper.
S discards The Flame's Gift.
S plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
S buys a Lost Arts.
S moves +Action token to the Library pile.
S draws 2 Colonies, 2 Platina and a Will-o'-wisp.

Turn 14 - milkyholmes
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Ratcatcher.
m draws a card.
m puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 3 cards.
m looks at a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Silver, a Gold and a Platinum.
m buys and gains a Colony.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - SG252
S plays a Will-o'-wisp.
S draws a Copper.
S reveals a Ratcatcher.
S puts a Ratcatcher into their hand.
S plays a Ratcatcher.
S draws a Bard.
S puts a Ratcatcher on their Tavern mat.
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Moon's Gift.
S receives The Moon's Gift
S looks at a Patrician, 2 Silvers, a Copper, 2 Libraries, a Moneylender and a Bard.
S topdecks a Library.
S discards The Moon's Gift.
S plays a Copper and 2 Platina.
S buys and gains a Province.
S shuffles their deck.
S draws 2 Coppers, a Library, a Moneylender and a Colony.

Between Turns
S takes 8 debt.
S gets 8 VP.

Turn 15 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 3 cards.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Gold and a Platinum.
m buys and gains a Platinum.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 16 - SG252
S starts their turn.
S calls a Ratcatcher.
S trashes a Moneylender.
S plays a Library.
S gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
S draws a Patrician.
S looks at a Patrician.
S draws a Silver and 2 Platina.
S plays a Patrician.
S draws a Bard.
S reveals a Silver.
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Forest's Gift.
S receives The Forest's Gift
S plays a Silver, 2 Coppers and 2 Platina.
S repays 8 debt.
S buys and gains a Province.
S discards The Forest's Gift.
S draws a Silver, a Province, a Colony, a Bard and a Will-o'-wisp.

Turn 16 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 2 cards.
m looks at a card.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Silver and 2 Platina.
m buys and gains a Colony.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

Turn 17 - SG252
S plays a Will-o'-wisp.
S draws a Library.
S shuffles their deck.
S reveals a Silver.
S topdecks a Silver.
S plays a Library.
S gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
S draws a Silver and a Patrician.
S looks at a Patrician.
S draws a Colony.
S plays a Patrician.
S draws a Platinum.
S reveals a Library.
S puts a Library into their hand.
S plays a Library.
S gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
S plays a Bard.
S takes The Mountain's Gift.
S receives The Mountain's Gift
S gains a Silver.
S discards The Mountain's Gift.
S plays 2 Silvers and a Platinum.
S buys and gains a Province.
S draws a Copper, a Province, a Platinum, a Ratcatcher and a Bard.

Turn 17 - milkyholmes
m starts their turn.
m calls a Ratcatcher.
m trashes an Estate.
m plays a Poacher.
m draws a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws 2 cards.
m looks at a card.
m draws 2 cards.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m looks at a card.
m plays a Library.
m gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
m draws a card.
m plays a Gold and 2 Platina.
m buys and gains a Colony.
m shuffles their deck.
m draws 5 cards.

My first Colony game since I have been doing this.

I did make a big mistake here when I used Lost Arts to turn the Patrician/Emporium pile into a village instead of using it to turn Library into non-terminal draw. I corrected this later, but obviously this wasted a turn and probably did cost me the game.

I also think my opponent made a big error with his Mountain Pass bid. 7 was in my opinion far too low and this almost let me back in.  For the cost of a Province it gave me 2 additional points and no stop card.


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faust

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2018, 02:49:18 am »
+3

I disagree with Lost Arts on Library. Playing two Libraries in a row is rarely useful, and Library already has a built-in mechanism to prevent drawing dead actions.

Also Monastery beats Ratcatcher when it comes to trashing.

The board is tricky. Usually BM would be dominant, but a thinned down Pirate Ship deck can wreck that. You can build a sort of draw-to-X engine using Lost Arts'd Poachers and Library with some Bards and 1-2 Duplicates, but that is probably slower than BM. So it really depends on what your opponent is doing; you might very well have a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario here in terms of strategy.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2018, 01:50:09 pm »
0

I don't understand why Monastery is better than Ratcatcher. I can see that it would be in the presence of a gainer or Remodel variant that you want to open with, but here both are going to be slow trashers. To me the Ratcatcher being able to remove itself from your deck once it has outlived its usefulness is better than being able to trash Coppers that you have played, especially here, where you have a another and better option for Copper trashing.
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DG

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2018, 02:13:11 pm »
+1

If you're planning to stick to moneylender, rat catcher, library, lost arts on library, platinum, colonies then you probably don't need the monastery. You don't need an early bard as it will clash with the moneylender. What you could use is a hoard or bard just before you start greening just to give the deck a bit more sustainability and some options (such as a longer game buying provinces once colonies get low). If you were wanting to open with a bard for a bit more spending then getting a monastery at some point seems fine, but moneylender seems like the right opener.

If you're wanting to build the pirate deck then it's going to be more difficult to sequence everything to get what you want; income for lost arts from poachers (presumably), a bard for options (maybe), a moneylender start, plenty of pirates, a library would draw well, duplicates might make up for no +buy, and ...
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Chris is me

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2018, 02:46:33 pm »
+1

I don't understand why Monastery is better than Ratcatcher. I can see that it would be in the presence of a gainer or Remodel variant that you want to open with, but here both are going to be slow trashers. To me the Ratcatcher being able to remove itself from your deck once it has outlived its usefulness is better than being able to trash Coppers that you have played, especially here, where you have a another and better option for Copper trashing.

If Ratcatcher could be called at any time during a turn, or called the same turn it is played, this might have some merit, but both are huge drawbacks for Ratcatcher. It can only be played once every 2 turns, and it can only trash from your starting hand.

Monasteryís strength is in how it trashes with minimal to no loss of momentum due to trashing Copper that are in play. When youíre only gaining one card a turn, itís basically Forager, sure -takes a spot in your hand, trashes Estates for no benefit, trashes Coppers in exchange for not losing their coin value. Forager is pretty good! I think we all agree Forager is better than Ratcatcher.

(But Monastery gets amazing in the context of a gainer like Workshop. Gain a card with Workshop, buy a $2 or $3 cost (such as... Monastery, or Workshop), then trash two cards. Thatís a PHENOMENAL early turn, and a huge gain in momentum versus the same turn with a terminal trasher or a Ratcatcher. Itís not a huge thing here, but with Bard you are often gaining stuff so a Bard Monastery opening would be very powerful.

-

As an aside, in the future PLEASE post the kingdom from each log you copy here. No way to quickly check whatís on the board without loading the game...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 02:49:31 pm by Chris is me »
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xyz123

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Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 03:26:21 pm »
0


-

As an aside, in the future PLEASE post the kingdom from each log you copy here. No way to quickly check whatís on the board without loading the game...

Thanks for the explanation.

I have posted each board using the kingdom tags from the fds Chrome extension. Are you not seeing the board? Is anyone else not seeing it? If there is a problem I will also list the cards in future.
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