Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards  (Read 4250 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 515
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +841
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2018, 07:13:56 pm »
0

Inheritance is great when you can't trash your estates.  When you do trash your Estates, it's a glorified Ferry.  Which is still worth going for after all, but I ranked it around the 50% mark.

Agreed. I love the concept of Inheritance, but I don't buy it very often at all.
Logged

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
  • Respect: +2461
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2018, 11:17:47 pm »
+1

Count me in the "Overlord is underrated" camp, although I think it's only very slightly underrated. I would put it right below City Quarter

My instinct tells me that Overlord is overrated. There's usually one killer 5 on the board, but you might as well just buy that instead of the Overlord. Then the Overlord gets drastically nerfed when the pile empties. I feel like $8 is a pretty steep price for what it does, even considering it's debt.

I think 8 debt is only a bit more than $5. I've never been afraid of somebody piling out the pile I was copying, because it's a lot harder to pile-out actions when you're the only one buying them.

Basically, this is what I expect to happen if a player skips Overlord: Player 1 buys a lot of Overlords. Player 2 skips it. The important $5 cost piles empty slower than usual, because only Player 2 is buying those actions. Meanwhile, the Overlord player has a much more consistent and flexible deck. By the time any piles are close to running out, the game should be almost done.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

traces Around

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 290
  • Shuffle iT Username: tracer
  • Respect: +386
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2018, 12:43:06 am »
0

In direct response to the points made about Inheritance, it is worth noting that as well as reducing a cost, it also opens up 8 more of whatever card you inherit, which is a really big deal on hotly contested piles like villages in many games. Also, ability to trash Estates doesn't mean that you are required to do so, and if you can reach $7 within 3 shuffles without doing so, you are generally better off than if you were using a single card trasher.

Anyways, Part 2 is now posted here.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2157
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3025
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2018, 01:00:20 am »
+2

Inheritance is great when you can't trash your estates.  When you do trash your Estates, it's a glorified Ferry.  Which is still worth going for after all, but I ranked it around the 50% mark.
You have it the wrong way around; when Inheritance is there, you don't trash Estates.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Aleimon Thimble

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 669
  • Shuffle iT Username: Aleimon Thimble
  • Respect: +670
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2018, 03:44:41 am »
+1

Good, Annex has reached rock bottom. I don't think I've ever found a use for it.

I had never noticed before that Conquest is really close to strictly superior to Harem. I mean, the extra Silver doesn't hurt in money strategies, and if your strategy is not a money strategy, you also don't want Harem.
Logged
[...] The God of heaven has given you Dominion [...] (Daniel 2:37)

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2157
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3025
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2018, 06:39:52 am »
0

Good, Annex has reached rock bottom. I don't think I've ever found a use for it.

I had never noticed before that Conquest is really close to strictly superior to Harem. I mean, the extra Silver doesn't hurt in money strategies, and if your strategy is not a money strategy, you also don't want Harem.
Conquest should really rise. In money strategies, it's quickly better than Gold (at the first $6, you want Gold, and then probably Conquests), and in engines it can be a pseudo-Triumph providing a whole bunch of points.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2018, 07:49:20 am »
+2

I think Conquest is pretty accurately rated right now. It's good in money strategies (I actually think you just buy Conquest over Gold every time, outside of edge cases), but money strategies themselves aren't usually competitive. In engines, it would be nice if it worked like a pseudo-Triumph in practice, but that only really ever happens when there's a crazy Silver gainer such as Trader or Raid present; trying to gain all the Silvers with Conquest itself gets really expensive before you're getting enough points that it's worth it.

It still has some utility in engines though. If you're overdrawing, Conquest can be the fastest way to turn that into payload sometimes (ideally you don't want to do that, but sometimes you don't have time for the better options). If you need fodder for your mandatory trashers, Conquest is actually pretty good at providing that, and even if you just have Chapel or something, you can buy Conquest to get +2 VP and get rid of the Silvers later, which isn't amazing but sometimes that can be exactly the thing you need. And it can work pretty much like a Harem in the rare cases where you would buy Harem in engines too.

In summary, nothing super amazing, but it does something useful every now and then, which is also a pretty accurate description of a bunch of cards that are above it and below it.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1217
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2018, 09:19:33 am »
+8

I disagree with the placement and commentary around Castles.  Castles are usually a more efficient way to green than Provinces.  If the game ends on piles, neither pile is very relevant, but Provinces are a little better.  But if the game is going to last a while, and there isn't a Province-emptying megaturn, you will probably lose if you ignore Castles.  The full Castle stack (in 2P) is worth 45+ VP and is significantly easier to obtain than 8 Provinces (worth 48 VP).  More realistically, you trash a couple Castles with Small Castles and grab a convenient Province to have a ~44 VP to 42 VP lead over a player who gets 7 Provinces.

You can start gaining Castles ever-so-slightly before you would gain Province, because the early Castles provide some payload.  Of the early Castles, Humble Castle is the most important.  This $3 card can easily be worth as much as a Province if Castles aren't contested, and is still great value if you only manage to hold onto 4 Castles by game's end.  Crumbling Castle is the weakest castle; but it's okay if you have overdraw.  Small Castle is a key card if Castles are contested, and it's generally an efficient way to gain the later Castles.  Crumbling Castle is the best target, but Haunted Castle and Small Castle itself are also fine to trash.  Haunted Castle is usually great; it attacks your opponent and provides some payload to afford the later Castles.  In decks with good draw and available +actions, Opulent Castle can be fantastic; it gives you the coins you need as you fill your deck with green.  Sprawling Castle, Grand Castle, and King's Castle are straight points, and competitive or superior to Provinces.  These are the cards you want to use your Small Castle to gain.

I had Castles up on rank 17 of my list, and I think it's being underrated.  Similar to Fairgrounds, Castles adds a significant chunk of VP to the game, which rewards building longer.  Castles are almost always good on a board if Fairgrounds would be good.  While Castles can't be as insane as Fairgrounds in the presence of lots of cards outside of the kingdom (see Black Market), Castles are better any time it's inconvenient to have 15+ unique cards on one's deck - which is most of the time.  I also give Castles the nod over Nobles.  If Nobles is the only source of draw in the kingdom, it can be a key card, but otherwise it's not as impactful as Castles; it represents only 16 extra VP.  I even have Dominate below Castles, because Dominate is an impractical target on a substantial fraction of kingdoms and it works on the shared Province pile.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8058
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9367
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2018, 09:42:58 am »
+2

Artisan should be higher.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3684
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2237
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2018, 09:43:45 am »
+1

I would say that Castles become much more worthwhile when you have the flexibility of some Remodel variant available to trash Castles for better Castles or Provinces. Haunted Castle provides 2 6-cost cards in one, and everything above Haunted Castle can be easily converted to Province or other Castles with trash-for-benefit while also giving some VP chips. Opulent Castle is sometimes nice for the on play.

When two players go for Castles or when you are agressively using trash-for-benefit on Castles, Humble Castle is actually one of the more expendable Castles. This is especially true if you are trashing Castles with Small Castle.
Logged

weesh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
  • MOAR MAGPIES
  • Respect: +341
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2018, 12:27:52 pm »
0

i like that you got all the cards in one thread, and that you alternated who talked about the cards, and that you made it kinda conversational.
this is my fav qvist-list thread so far.

The 6$ cards seem pretty inconsistent in quality.
The rankings make more sense than in other lists, as even card to card, you can see power differential. 

That said, I disagree that hunting grounds is overpriced.
Logged

shark_bait

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1102
  • Shuffle iT Username: shark_bait
  • Luckyfin and Land of Hinter for iso aliases
  • Respect: +1854
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2018, 01:46:20 pm »
+2

Artisan should be higher.

My subscription ran out this year and I haven't renewed it yet.  As such I've played more base only games than I normally would.  My biggest surprise was Artisan.  It is superb.  You do can so much from being able to gain/play the action on your current turn or gain a specific action to top deck for next turn.  It combines both engine building and deck control in an extremely elegant way.  This card makes any engine much MUCH better and should not be ignored.

Logged
Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

JKRich

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 01:50:04 pm »
+1

Aaaaaaaaah you're supposed to start rankings from the bottom, not the top  :'(
Agreed - I would've preferred seeing the suspense building toward the top and getting the laggards out of the way first consistent with the other postings. At the same time I loved the scatter plot. It leads to interesting questions like "Who could possibly have ranked Annex in the top half?" or "Did someone win with a Farmland/Remodel/Province strategy right before doing their rankings and do they still feel that way about Farmland?"
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2018, 02:01:32 pm »
0

Artisan should be higher.

My subscription ran out this year and I haven't renewed it yet.  As such I've played more base only games than I normally would.  My biggest surprise was Artisan.  It is superb.  You do can so much from being able to gain/play the action on your current turn or gain a specific action to top deck for next turn.  It combines both engine building and deck control in an extremely elegant way.  This card makes any engine much MUCH better and should not be ignored.

Well, Artisan is better in base only games than it is in full random, because you have all these crazy strong engine components in base but the payload is lacking. Artisan is absolutely bonkers in that environment: if there are strong components to gain for free, Artisan can basically work as payload because it allows you to build very explosively once you're drawing your deck (it's a bit clunky but it's better than nothing). When you have the expansions, the quality of the stuff you gain with Artisan is significantly lower on average and there are usually other, better options for payload.

It still helps you build the deck faster and stuff with the expansions so it's still a useful card, but it's not quite as good.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3684
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2237
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2018, 02:15:15 pm »
0

Artisan should be higher.

My subscription ran out this year and I haven't renewed it yet.  As such I've played more base only games than I normally would.  My biggest surprise was Artisan.  It is superb.  You do can so much from being able to gain/play the action on your current turn or gain a specific action to top deck for next turn.  It combines both engine building and deck control in an extremely elegant way.  This card makes any engine much MUCH better and should not be ignored.

Well, Artisan is better in base only games than it is in full random, because you have all these crazy strong engine components in base but the payload is lacking. Artisan is absolutely bonkers in that environment: if there are strong components to gain for free, Artisan can basically work as payload because it allows you to build very explosively once you're drawing your deck (it's a bit clunky but it's better than nothing). When you have the expansions, the quality of the stuff you gain with Artisan is significantly lower on average and there are usually other, better options for payload.

It still helps you build the deck faster and stuff with the expansions so it's still a useful card, but it's not quite as good.

Base set also has Throne Room. Throne Room on Artisan for two Duchies is a very potent end-game play.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8058
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9367
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2018, 06:42:41 pm »
+2

It seems the current trend over the past year has been an increased perception of the value of trashers (Remake topping the s, Junk Dealer second in the s).  I'm hoping the next trend will be an increased perception of the value of gainers, and let Artisan and Vampire bump up a bit more.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1183
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +886
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2018, 10:57:53 am »
0

tracer: One of the big risers in the 6+ cost list this year, Pathfinding, like King’s Court, can create engines on boards where there otherwise would be none, though perhaps the more common use is adding consistency and terminal space in an otherwise functioning engine.

How does Pathfinding add terminal space? I thought "terminal space" meant space for more terminals, in which case it's Lost Arts that adds terminal space.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 6992
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9656
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2018, 11:18:49 am »
+2

tracer: One of the big risers in the 6+ cost list this year, Pathfinding, like King’s Court, can create engines on boards where there otherwise would be none, though perhaps the more common use is adding consistency and terminal space in an otherwise functioning engine.

How does Pathfinding add terminal space? I thought "terminal space" meant space for more terminals, in which case it's Lost Arts that adds terminal space.

Maybe the idea is that you need fewer smithy-type cards, since Pathfinding is doing the drawing for you? That's my guess.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 03:24:54 pm »
0

tracer: One of the big risers in the 6+ cost list this year, Pathfinding, like King’s Court, can create engines on boards where there otherwise would be none, though perhaps the more common use is adding consistency and terminal space in an otherwise functioning engine.

How does Pathfinding add terminal space? I thought "terminal space" meant space for more terminals, in which case it's Lost Arts that adds terminal space.

Maybe the idea is that you need fewer smithy-type cards, since Pathfinding is doing the drawing for you? That's my guess.

More importantly, you need to play fewer Smithy-type cards, even if you have them, because you've already drawn your deck.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

ackmondual

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
  • Respect: +253
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2018, 11:29:37 pm »
0

It seems the current trend over the past year has been an increased perception of the value of trashers (Remake topping the s, Junk Dealer second in the s).  I'm hoping the next trend will be an increased perception of the value of gainers, and let Artisan and Vampire bump up a bit more.
Not sure if it's been done, but they could start ranking the cards by such categories...
best $4 trashers
best $5 gainers
etc.
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

ackmondual

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
  • Respect: +253
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2018, 11:33:22 pm »
0

I disagree with the placement and commentary around Castles.  Castles are usually a more efficient way to green than Provinces.  If the game ends on piles, neither pile is very relevant, but Provinces are a little better.  But if the game is going to last a while, and there isn't a Province-emptying megaturn, you will probably lose if you ignore Castles.  The full Castle stack (in 2P) is worth 45+ VP and is significantly easier to obtain than 8 Provinces (worth 48 VP).  More realistically, you trash a couple Castles with Small Castles and grab a convenient Province to have a ~44 VP to 42 VP lead over a player who gets 7 Provinces.

You can start gaining Castles ever-so-slightly before you would gain Province, because the early Castles provide some payload.  Of the early Castles, Humble Castle is the most important.  This $3 card can easily be worth as much as a Province if Castles aren't contested, and is still great value if you only manage to hold onto 4 Castles by game's end.  Crumbling Castle is the weakest castle; but it's okay if you have overdraw.  Small Castle is a key card if Castles are contested, and it's generally an efficient way to gain the later Castles.  Crumbling Castle is the best target, but Haunted Castle and Small Castle itself are also fine to trash.  Haunted Castle is usually great; it attacks your opponent and provides some payload to afford the later Castles.  In decks with good draw and available +actions, Opulent Castle can be fantastic; it gives you the coins you need as you fill your deck with green.  Sprawling Castle, Grand Castle, and King's Castle are straight points, and competitive or superior to Provinces.  These are the cards you want to use your Small Castle to gain.

I had Castles up on rank 17 of my list, and I think it's being underrated.  Similar to Fairgrounds, Castles adds a significant chunk of VP to the game, which rewards building longer.  Castles are almost always good on a board if Fairgrounds would be good.  While Castles can't be as insane as Fairgrounds in the presence of lots of cards outside of the kingdom (see Black Market), Castles are better any time it's inconvenient to have 15+ unique cards on one's deck - which is most of the time.  I also give Castles the nod over Nobles.  If Nobles is the only source of draw in the kingdom, it can be a key card, but otherwise it's not as impactful as Castles; it represents only 16 extra VP.  I even have Dominate below Castles, because Dominate is an impractical target on a substantial fraction of kingdoms and it works on the shared Province pile.

Does this still hold true when there's a 3 or 4-way race for Castles?  I suppose at that point, you just supplement the rest of your points with the standard Victory cards (or whatever other pts can be had)?
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.095 seconds with 20 queries.