Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3  (Read 5504 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1145
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1775
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 03:56:20 pm »
+3

I'm a level 55ish player. I generally (around 80%?) go for rebuild when it's in the kingdom, and in my limited experience it's very rare that I lose to a non-rebuild strategy, playing the vast majority of my games against players of level 45-60.

I don't doubt that rebuild is beatable on a lot of boards, but if you need to be an excellent player to reliably figure out how, that isn't a great proof of rebuild's weakness.

No other card lets me put the same amount of pressure on a more skilled opponent.
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1703
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2018, 04:26:01 pm »
+7

Maybe the rankings are 100% correct, in which case ignore me .. But man this year in particular the upper $5's seem crazy. Maybe I'm an old school guy but I'd still put Monty, Cultist, Rebuild the top 3 (in no particular order). Like, what the heck, Rebuild #16!?! I wonder if it's because people want to beat Rebuild. And want thinning to prevail over junking. But come on people that just isn't always the case! Masquerade, JD, Upgrade, etc. cannot in a vacuum keep up with even 1 Monty (like 95% sure on that).

Like, what specifically about Nocturne or Landmarks or whatever makes Rebuild drop 7 places one year and then 8 places the next?? And Curses, Coppers, and Ruins are still Curses, Coppers, and Ruins. I mean there's Donate now sure. But I just don't get it.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11158
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11827
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 04:51:12 pm »
0

I don't doubt that rebuild is beatable on a lot of boards, but if you need to be an excellent player to reliably figure out how, that isn't a great proof of rebuild's weakness.

It is, actually. If a player (regardless of how excellent they are) is able to reliably figure out how to beat Rebuild, that means Rebuild has a weakness.

Maybe the rankings are 100% correct, in which case ignore me .. But man this year in particular the upper $5's seem crazy. Maybe I'm an old school guy but I'd still put Monty, Cultist, Rebuild the top 3 (in no particular order). Like, what the heck, Rebuild #16!?! I wonder if it's because people want to beat Rebuild. And want thinning to prevail over junking. But come on people that just isn't always the case! Masquerade, JD, Upgrade, etc. cannot in a vacuum keep up with even 1 Monty (like 95% sure on that).

Like, what specifically about Nocturne or Landmarks or whatever makes Rebuild drop 7 places one year and then 8 places the next?? And Curses, Coppers, and Ruins are still Curses, Coppers, and Ruins. I mean there's Donate now sure. But I just don't get it.

I think it's mostly the case that we actually do beat Rebuild, and the reason for that is that we suck at the game considerably less than we did a year ago, or especially two years ago (but make no mistake, we still suck at it). The new cards don't make that big of a difference because card interactions come up basically never.

Aku chi already explained why the junkers are lower than they should be; I don't think there's a consensus that agrees with how low they are. Although I do think that Cultist has been traditionally slightly overrated.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:52:44 pm by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 742
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1334
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 05:20:00 pm »
0

Let's scrutinize the top 3 with a statistical eye.

Notice that Mountebank has, by far, the highest median on this list.  In fact, more than half of the voters voted Mountebank at 2nd place or higher, and it received 18 1st place votes (considerably higher than Wharf's 6).  Mountebank's average is dragged down by a couple extremely low outliers (below 20%) and a few more votes around the middle, some of them errors by high-rated players.  Mountebank: you're still #1 in my heart and mind!

A related question: the rankings show weighted averages, un-weighted averages, and medians. Why not also show the weighted median?
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2676
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3333
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 06:29:12 pm »
0

Let's scrutinize the top 3 with a statistical eye.

Notice that Mountebank has, by far, the highest median on this list.  In fact, more than half of the voters voted Mountebank at 2nd place or higher, and it received 18 1st place votes (considerably higher than Wharf's 6).  Mountebank's average is dragged down by a couple extremely low outliers (below 20%) and a few more votes around the middle, some of them errors by high-rated players.  Mountebank: you're still #1 in my heart and mind!

A related question: the rankings show weighted averages, un-weighted averages, and medians. Why not also show the weighted median?

I am not sure what the phrase “weighted median” would mean in this context. How would you calculate that?
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1376
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 06:36:09 pm »
+4

Let's scrutinize the top 3 with a statistical eye.

Notice that Mountebank has, by far, the highest median on this list.  In fact, more than half of the voters voted Mountebank at 2nd place or higher, and it received 18 1st place votes (considerably higher than Wharf's 6).  Mountebank's average is dragged down by a couple extremely low outliers (below 20%) and a few more votes around the middle, some of them errors by high-rated players.  Mountebank: you're still #1 in my heart and mind!

A related question: the rankings show weighted averages, un-weighted averages, and medians. Why not also show the weighted median?

I am not sure what the phrase “weighted median” would mean in this context. How would you calculate that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted_median

I just discovered that today.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5262
  • Respect: +2713
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 08:37:20 pm »
0

If Harvest is the worst 5 and Wharf is the best, the 5's seem like the most balanced/bounded set of cards to me.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2109
  • Respect: +2622
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 01:29:15 am »
+4

Rebuild seems too low to me. I skip Rebuild a lot because I find the game more fun if I try to outrace it, but in practice, my opponent often skips Rebuild on those boards too, so I haven't had to race against Rebuild in a while. I suspect I'm underestimating it. I think f.ds as a whole underrates money and simple strategies.

Between Upgrade, Sentry, and Junk Dealer, I'd have put Upgrade > Junk Dealer >> Sentry, so I'm very surprised Junk Dealer is all the way at #2.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 04:41:52 am by Titandrake »
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1112
  • Respect: +773
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 05:15:23 am »
0

I don't get how Crown could be better than Royal Carriage really, the fact you can't RC a RC isn't enough to justify that difference in the rankings. Royal Carriage is way more flexible and more efficent to enable nice megaturns.

About the rest, well I'm overtaken by the new ranking standards. I remember once I asked how to rank good junker vs good drawers, I took the example of Wharf vs. Witch. At that time, everyone said it was obvious that witch should be ranked higher. Time has passed since...

Wharf at #1 doesn't shock me, but Junk dealer second I don't get. The main difference between Wharf and Junk Dealer is that Wharf is like always the best drawer in the board. You can't skip it. But Junk Dealer... it's so expensive and there are other very good trashers in the game, I'm thinking about Chapel, Forager, Steward, Remake, Bonfire, Forge (which is expensive but can trash a lot in one play)...

I think Vampire is overrated and is the same kind of trap as University. And the bat is simply not very good. With no other trashers in the board it's ok (but still comes late) otherwise it's a dead card in the deck.

Also I don't get Groundskeeper yet. I like the card a lot but I never had lot of VP with it. Wild hunt seems way better to me. Can someone explain me why groundskeeper is so good ?
Logged

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2495
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3466
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 05:25:53 am »
0

I think Vampire is overrated and is the same kind of trap as University. And the bat is simply not very good. With no other trashers in the board it's ok (but still comes late) otherwise it's a dead card in the deck.
Well, University takes a 2-step process (buy Potion, buy Uni) to get the benefit; Vampire only has one intermediary step. And I think Vampire's attack is usually more impactful than Uni's +action. All in all, the Bat is more of a nerf to the card, to slow it down and have it run out, Mercenary-style.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1068
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2018, 05:56:35 am »
0

An example of a weighted median in real life is the so-called "tipping-point state" in US presidential elections; the one that just gets the candidate who takes it over the 270 mark. (In the 2016 election, this was Wisconsin.)
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

4est

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 126
  • Shuffle iT Username: 4est
  • Respect: +446
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2018, 10:32:28 am »
+12

Also I don't get Groundskeeper yet. I like the card a lot but I never had lot of VP with it. Wild hunt seems way better to me. Can someone explain me why groundskeeper is so good ?

Perhaps the best way to explain Groundskeeper's power is with the following analogy: Groundskeeper is to Goons as Highway is to Bridge.

Goons and Bridge are both excellent payload cards in their ability to create explosive VP generation and cost reduction respectively.  However, both are terminal stop cards and require a lot of actions and draw support (i.e. a big engine) in order to maximize their multiplicative potential.  Highway has similar cost reduction benefits as Bridge but since it's a cantrip, it's way easier to get six Highways in play than to get six Bridges in play.  To compensate, Highway also comes with a few more restrictions than Bridge (no +$ or +Buy and non-throneable cost reduction).  Groundskeeper likewise grants similar on-gain VP like Goons, in a sleek cantrip package, but also with restrictions (no +$ or +Buy or attack and only works on VP card gains). 

In practice, Groundskeeper basically gives players the ability to very easily overtake a fast money strategy in VP--play five Groundskeepers and Estates become Provinces. With multiple gains, Groundskeeper is absolutely bonkers, capable of generating of Goons-like insurmountable VP leads in a single turn.  Except on sloggy, attack-heavy boards and in cases of much faster rushes/combos (e.g. CH/TF or Lurker/HG), not contesting Groundskeepers is often a losing move since unless you can quickly end the game, the Groundskeeper player will eventually win.  In games where both players go for it, winning the split is critical.  Especially early in the game, it can seem hard to justify repeatedly paying $5 for what's just a vanilla cantrip until the late game, but trust me, it's worth it (Groundskeeper makes $5 gainers like Altar and Duplicate really nice).  Finally, unlike Wild Hunt (which is also an excellent payload and draw card), Groundskeeper-driven payload doesn't need villages to be viable. 

For a game example, I humbly present a dual-set tournament game against Burning Skull (game 2 starts at about 24:15).  I'll admit this was before I really understood how good Groundskeeper was, but you can see Burning Skull pull off a dramatic comeback with Groundskeeper against my (bad) money strategy. 

All in all, Groundskeeper is a subtle but deceptively powerful card.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Groundskeeper jump up another ten positions (or possibly more) in the next year's rankings. 
Logged

terminalCopper

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
  • Respect: +752
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2018, 03:55:45 am »
+1

I really like your post, but on top, I‘d like to emphasize that your statement

play five Groundskeepers and Estates become Provinces.   

even underestimates Groundskeeper. The truth is, Estate+5VP is way better than a province, because you can trash that estate and keep your deck thin.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2310
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, 3/3
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2018, 08:46:53 am »
+3

I really like your post, but on top, I‘d like to emphasize that your statement

play five Groundskeepers and Estates become Provinces.   

even underestimates Groundskeeper. The truth is, Estate+5VP is way better than a province, because you can trash that estate and keep your deck thin.

You can also replace the Estate with another Estate using cards like Remodel and still get VP equal to your number of in-play Groundskeepers.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.071 seconds with 20 queries.