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drsteelhammer

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« on: January 15, 2018, 08:53:14 am »
+12

The Best 5-Cost Cards (Middle third)

Welcome to the middle part of the 5 costs, that part where you throw all the average cards in and don't really care about its particular ranking. Almost all of the cards are pretty strong, so one shouldn't read too much into rank differences here. Keep in mind that we only had ~37 voters this year, so one would expect some stronger fluctuations here.


#74 ▲2 Inn (Hinterlands)
Weighted Average:
38%
Unweighted Average:
38%
Median:
34%
Standard Deviation:
19%

Inn roughly stays where it is. Making use of the on-gain effect is often essential to make this card work well in your deck. One has to be mindful of the negative net draw of this card, which often makes it inconvenient to have in your deck.
#73 ▼3 Charm (Empires)
Weighted Average:
39%
Unweighted Average:
41%
Median:
35%
Standard Deviation:
18%

Charm loses a few places. Gaining multiple 5's with it is great, but it is often hard to get there fast enough. It's difficult to time your first purchase of this correctly, and often the window is quite narrow.
#72  Courtier (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
39%
Unweighted Average:
40%
Median:
40%
Standard Deviation:
16%

A new card; yet it has one of the lowest standard deviations in this list. The synergies are obvious, and it's fun to make this card do stuff but it's not quite enough to make it one of the top cards.
#71 ▲10 Seaway (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
40%
Unweighted Average:
36%
Median:
32%
Standard Deviation:
20%

One of the big winners in this list. The median is closer to last year's rank but it profits from a few very high ranks aswell as one top 10 vote. One of the cheapest ways to get multiple buys in your deck with a super low opportunity cost, you probably want to get this in every engine you build just for the utility those buys provide to you. The weighted score is already significantly higher, I can see this gain a few more ranks in the future.
#70 ▼17 Embassy (Hinterlands)
Weighted Average:
40%
Unweighted Average:
44%
Median:
44%
Standard Deviation:
20%

Embassy falling further and further from ist glory past. Just like Duke, non-engine strategies just aren't a thing anymore that happens frequently. The draw of Embassy doesn't really work in engines, which explains the steady downfall of this card
#69 ▲10 Market (Base)
Weighted Average:
40%
Unweighted Average:
42%
Median:
39%
Standard Deviation:
19%

Market rising again seems a little crazy to me. We've seen a few decent ways to get +buy already, this one costs quite a lot and provides little more than a cantrip +buy. Really shines in strong decks with weaker draw, otherwise it's a little expensive
#68 ▼16 Jester (Cornucopia)
Weighted Average:
40%
Unweighted Average:
46%
Median:
46%
Standard Deviation:
23%

Another big loser of this list. This card being super fun probably obscured our vision for a long time. You can't really rely on this card doing the stuff you want it to do, so it's risky to have this as your payload. Playing one of them a couple times before piles are running will still be useful very often, though.
#67 ▲3 Trading Post (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
40%
Unweighted Average:
40%
Median:
35%
Standard Deviation:
23%

It trashes and gives you economy that turn. Opening with it often wins you games, so do that if you can. Otherwise, it often turn into a sad trasher cause it is so slow.
#66  Cobbler (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
41%
Unweighted Average:
48%
Median:
48%
Standard Deviation:
19%

Another night card! The unweighted score is quite a bit higher, but it's too early to make any judgement calls here. It's worse in Nocturne heavy games because you want to gain action cards with this that are useful at the start of your turn and not other night cards. It's an interesting concept, but a duration workshop that is so expensive might just be too slow, key piles might be getting low already once you can play this regularly.
#65 ▲6 Trade (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
42%
Unweighted Average:
40%
Median:
43%
Standard Deviation:
18%

Trade is getting a little more love. It's a great economy boost if that is what you need and can make money strategy work occasionally.
#64  Idol (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
43%
Unweighted Average:
47%
Median:
48%
Standard Deviation:
18%

Another kingdom treasure that isn't at the bottom of the list! Play your Idol before your treasures, often that is maximizing the utility of the boons. Most of them are awkward to receive in the buy phase anyway, so I'm not sure if it can keep the rank here. Atleast it curses, too! You will need to build quite a bit to do that, though.
#63 ▼10 Baker (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
44%
Unweighted Average:
47%
Median:
43%
Standard Deviation:
15%

Baker loses a bunch of places, slowly but steadily getting closer to the bottom part of this list. This is the peddler variant with the highest utility, but at the end of the day it's still a Peddler. Those things that you should be geting for free, not pay horrendous sums of coins. And yes, a couple tokens are nice, especially if you don't get the same amount of coins every turn. Just don't overdo it.
#62 ▼3 Council Room (Base)
Weighted Average:
46%
Unweighted Average:
44%
Median:
48%
Standard Deviation:
21%

It draws a lot of cards, but gives your opponent a free card (aka Lab) which a lot of people hate, which is why it got so many low rankings. It's often hard to evaluate how much you are helping your opponent compared to the use you can make out of the draw, so play around it carefully but don't underestimate what +4 cards can do for you. Especially when it is the only draw.
#61 ▼20 Bustling Village (Empires)
Weighted Average:
46%
Unweighted Average:
45%
Median:
41%
Standard Deviation:
23%

Super high standard deviation, and lots of ranks lost. Getting through 5 Settlers is often tough, most decks don't like waiting for villages that long so it is understandable that other villages are rated more highly. Should the settlers run for one reason or another, this card is of course nice to have if you mange to draw it in your starting hand.
#60 ▲6 Festival (Base)
Weighted Average:
47%
Unweighted Average:
48%
Median:
42%
Standard Deviation:
18%

And another village! This one doesn't draw a card, so that's suboptimal aswell. But it provides you with a free Woodcutter instead, so that is something you want, ocassionally.
#59 ▼15 Distant Lands (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
47%
Unweighted Average:
47%
Median:
45%
Standard Deviation:
25%

The next alt-VP card that lost several ranks. Having more ways to get VP apparently hurt the reputation of this card aswell. But we're getting close to the middle of the rankings, so cards that got here will all be strong ones, this one being no exception.
#58 ▼3 Bandit Camp (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
48%
Unweighted Average:
47%
Median:
44%
Standard Deviation:
22%

Bandit camp roughly stays where it is. You really want to be trashing a lot and get some draw to make this card really shine. Drawing the spoils the same turn you gain them is the way to keep your deck together without the spoils getting in the way. The card has a fairly high standard deviation, which is probably explained by nature of the card: Sometimes it's a great village that gives you free payload, someitmes it just sucks because it kills your draw. Both of those experience meet somewhere in the middle of those here in this ranking.
#57 ▲6 Merchant Guild (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
49%
Unweighted Average:
46%
Median:
43%
Standard Deviation:
19%

This one is tough to comment on for me. Playing several of them and making use of the buys often lets you empty the Provinces after a fe turns, but getting there is really hard with the limited economy the Guild provides when you only get one or two of them in play.
#56 ▲15 Plunder (Empires)
Weighted Average:
49%
Unweighted Average:
50%
Median:
47%
Standard Deviation:
22%

Another big winner here. The VP often comes relatively late in the game, since you often draw your deck already once those get uncovered. In my experience, that is often too late to make a huge difference, especially if you don't get 4 or 5 of them. But most of you seem to have made different experiences.
#55 ▲7 Artificer (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
50%
Unweighted Average:
47%
Median:
46%
Standard Deviation:
17%

Artificer jumps a few places ahead. People that are more skiled value this more, which isn't surprising as it is really hard to make the most out of it (I doubt many people will claim they are good with this card). Always look out for synergies with this and remember that it topodecks the gains so you can make a lot of complicated stuff happen with this.
#54 ▼15 Legionary (Empires)
Weighted Average:
51%
Unweighted Average:
52%
Median:
54%
Standard Deviation:
21%

I'm glad the hype around this card died down a little. It takes a while until the attack part of this goes live, until then your opponent should have gotten plenty of draw to make of for the nasty attack. I expect this to fall a few more ranks over the next few years.
#53 ▼4 Relic (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
52%
Unweighted Average:
48%
Median:
49%
Standard Deviation:
21%

And another handsize attack! Brutal together with Legionary, otherwise it's more annoying than devastating. But the opportunity cost to play this attack is often low, so you often want to get this, it makes your opponent dud once in a while.
#52 ▲6 Archive (Empires)
Weighted Average:
53%
Unweighted Average:
52%
Median:
50%
Standard Deviation:
18%

Archive, another card that is difficult to play around. You don't want to hide cards that you need to play, but storing away cards for your next turn or just keeping that Estate out forever is quite useful very often. It's hard to control your deck and be consistent if it's the only draw, but it is a nice support often and can be useful in most decks that aren't super thin.
#51 ▲5 Storyteller (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
54%
Unweighted Average:
54%
Median:
57%
Standard Deviation:
20%

A great draw card in decks that have lots of treasures, either voluntarily or involuntarily. The difficult part is often to get one into your starting hand, so having cards on the board that help you with this are often great to have. If you manage that, you are often able to get some big turns even with thick decks which makes this a great card. Just be careful you don't spend to much of your economy drawing if you rely on said economy to do stuff. Also, don't try crowning Black markets with this at home.
#50 ▼4 Catacombs (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
55%
Unweighted Average:
54%
Median:
53%
Standard Deviation:
20%

Drawing cards is really good, espcecially more than +2. This one even lets you choose, a nice effect for decks that aren't super thin,
#49  Patrol (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
56%
Unweighted Average:
56%
Median:
56%
Standard Deviation:
17%

Look at that, this one draws too! It also lets you scout for cards you can draw afterwards, isn't that neat.
#48 ▲26 Outpost (Seaside)
Weighted Average:
56%
Unweighted Average:
51%
Median:
48%
Standard Deviation:
25%

Probably the winner of this list, or probably all lists. The better decks we are able to build, the more this card just doubles your output in a turn. Just because it has that potential it can't be overstated how good this card can be. Of course, sometimes it's just a dud, but if you mange to get it to work, it will pay off really quickly.
#47 ▲17 Forum (Empires)
Weighted Average:
57%
Unweighted Average:
51%
Median:
55%
Standard Deviation:
21%

Sifting without losing handsize is valued a lot more highly aswell here, especially highly ranked people are beginning to like this card. You would like to have this in pretty much any deck if getting thin isn't happening super fast. It can never really hurt you, so it's a great way to establish consistency. Also, look out for the hands where you can buy this + another component.
#46 ▲7 Triumph (Empires)
Weighted Average:
58%
Unweighted Average:
55%
Median:
61%
Standard Deviation:
31%

Above 30% Standard deviation! A last place, a bunch of top 10 places and alot in between, except not much around the actual rank as one might expect. I know there has been a lot of controversial discussion about this card, the opinion ranging from second best alt-VP to mediocre event. We will see what future rankings will bring. Personally, I expect this to rise even higher, as this can get you a lot of points quite cheaply.
#45 ▲2 Rabble (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
58%
Unweighted Average:
58%
Median:
59%
Standard Deviation:
17%

Another draw card, it punishes your opponent for greening too early, Not the most exciting effect, but it nonetheless strong and it incentivizes you to build a little more.
#44 ▼2 Swamp Hag (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
59%
Unweighted Average:
61%
Median:
64%
Standard Deviation:
19%

Swamp Hag has a fairly high median, but the average is quite a bit lower. It is a conditional curser every other turn, but atleast you give your opponent something to think about on his turn, at least. If you can play a bunch of them consistently, your opponent will have to adapt their strategy fairly quickly, so it's often worth going for if the curses will hurt them.
#43 ▲13 Journeyman (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
59%
Unweighted Average:
57%
Median:
58%
Standard Deviation:
17%

A puzzling jump in ranks for our Traveller, I have no explanation besides variance for this. I consider almost all of the previous Smithy variants stronger than this one, but often it doesn't make a big difference so I can see Journeyman getting ahead aswell.
#42Werewolf (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
59%
Unweighted Average:
58%
Median:
60%
Standard Deviation:
19%

The 4th strongest Noctune card in this list. It's cool that you can make use of the draw cards that you wont need that turn, so you can slightly overbuy them and hope the Hexes behave.
#41 ▲4 Summon (Promo)
Weighted Average:
60%
Unweighted Average:
54%
Median:
59%
Standard Deviation:
24%

Another controversial card! Skilled players like this a lot more. Summoning a card speeds up your deck by quite a lot, so you want to consider summoning whenever it is on the board and you want to keep the cards you are summoning. Especially in the opening and first shuffle you can often do crazy things by getting an effect immediately instead of one shuffle later.
#40 ▲3 City (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
60%
Unweighted Average:
59%
Median:
58%
Standard Deviation:
17%

Finally a card everyone can agree on. The minigame of leveling them up is fun, just make sure you can actually use the extra draw once it's there.
#39 ▲1 Soothsayer (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
60%
Unweighted Average:
62%
Median:
58%
Standard Deviation:
18%

Soothsayer managed to stay where it was, pretty much. Cursing is still good, free Golds are often nice in decks where you get Curses.
#38 ▼5 Tactician (Seaside)
Weighted Average:
61%
Unweighted Average:
64%
Median:
65%
Standard Deviation:
19%

Tactician falls down 5 places, which is a bit sad to see for me. It provides the most consistency you can get, probably but of course it comes at quite a cost, not being able to play Treasure and Night cards. Having more of those aswell as getting more strong utility cards might explain why this one falls a little out of favour.

A big thanks to markus for doing what would have been half the work for me by doing the formatting.

When you find spelling mistakes, feel free PM me somewhere and I will correct them tonight. Or you can post them in this thread and derail the undoubtedly useful discussion this list will bring, that's up to you.

Tomorrow ceviri will present the top cards, be prepared for surprises :)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 03:37:31 pm by drsteelhammer »
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 09:18:28 am »
+4

The alt-VP placement here is strange. Distant Lands is pretty good and I don't get the drop. Triumph is just absolutely ridiculous at the rank, as probably everyone will agree according to the writeup. I was one of those putting it in the top 10.

I think I had all the Smithy variants ranked a bit lower. Draw is just such a commonplace resource these days.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2018, 09:20:26 am »
+5

These lists are really informative, thank you everyone who worked on putting them together.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 09:31:32 am »
0

Bustling Village dropped, as I expected.  However, I was expecting Legionary to rise, not fall.  Groundskeeper will be a big winner here - it's vaulted up at least 20 spots.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 10:12:55 am »
+2

Can someone explain why Plunder rose while Monument keeps falling?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 10:15:08 am »
+2

Quote
Jester
Another big loser of this list. This card being super fun probably obscured our vision for a long time.

Jester is one of my favorite cards in the game, top 5 for sure.  I ALWAYS overbuy it.  But I'd have put it lower than 68.  I've never thought it was strong.  The idea that people were letting fun influence their power level judgement is interesting!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2018, 10:16:39 am »
+5

Can someone explain why Plunder rose while Monument keeps falling?

* Plunder is non-terminal
* Plunder is paired with a great draw card
* Plunder helps activate said draw card
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2018, 11:27:18 am »
+1

Groundskeeper will be a big winner here - it's vaulted up at least 20 spots.

At least we're getting something right.

Can someone explain why Plunder rose while Monument keeps falling?

Another reason is that there is a limited and odd number of Plunders (Monuments are limited too but the limit is high enough that you rarely want so many), so getting three while your opponent only gets two is a big deal.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 11:32:00 am »
+1

Does anyone have an explanation or an opinion for Journeyman's jump over Patrol and Catacombs?

(Also: why does the blurb call Journeyman a Traveller? That's a card type and this card isn't one. The uncapitalized "traveller" isn't accurate either, since a "journeyman" is a professional post-apprenticeship rank, and doesn't have anything to do with traveling.)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 11:36:36 am by Cave-o-sapien »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2018, 12:04:16 pm »
+1

The uncapitalized "traveller" isn't accurate either, since a "journeyman" is a professional post-apprenticeship rank, and doesn't have anything to do with traveling.

Depends on what you mean by travelling, but it was not unusual that a journeyman had to attain mastership by moving to other places and learn his trade elsewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman#Origin
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2018, 12:08:26 pm »
+2

Does anyone have an explanation or an opinion for Journeyman's jump over Patrol and Catacombs?

(Also: why does the blurb call Journeyman a Traveller? That's a card type and this card isn't one. The uncapitalized "traveller" isn't accurate either, since a "journeyman" is a professional post-apprenticeship rank, and doesn't have anything to do with traveling.)
I mean, I can see it. Journeyman is good when you have limited trashing. Skipping over Coppers is a big deal on boards where you constantly keep 7 Coppers around. Catacombs is a bit more random in its filtering, and that works better when you have a variety of junk, as in Looter games. Patrol is best to maintain momentum late-game and if you have need of top-deck manipulation.

Simplified, Journeyman is for Coppers, Patrol is for green and Catacombs is for other junk. Coppers are the most frequent issue, so Journeyman is best. That analysis of course does not take into account Patrol's deck-reordering (which I think gives it an edge over Journeyman) or Catacombs' on-trash (which doesn't really come into play enough to boost its ranking).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 12:11:37 pm »
+2

Patrol is also the king of triggering bad shuffles. There's hardly another card in Dominion that has you reconsider playing it when you're left with 6 cards in your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 12:31:00 pm »
0

Patrol is also the king of triggering bad shuffles. There's hardly another card in Dominion that has you reconsider playing it when you're left with 6 cards in your deck.
True, but Patrol still has the potential for drawing 7 cards and skipping by 4 VC/curses so I was expecting it to be better than barely Top 50.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 12:49:23 pm »
+2

(Also: why does the blurb call Journeyman a Traveller? That's a card type and this card isn't one. The uncapitalized "traveller" isn't accurate either, since a "journeyman" is a professional post-apprenticeship rank, and doesn't have anything to do with traveling.)

In Finnish, Journeyman got translated as "travelling man", despite Finnish actually having a separate word for "rank after apprentice".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 01:46:34 pm »
+1

Overrated

Trade: This is the most overrated thing in the game. I have no idea why people like it so much. It's especially baffling that it's so high while Mine is so low. Mine is actually better; you only have to buy it once and gains the stuff to your hand. With Trade, you have to have play $5 and still have stuff in your hand to trash. You can forget about crucial early-game trashing.

Summon: This is just a $4 card with an on-gain bonus. It's almost always going to be better just to buy a $5 card.

Cobbler: Most of the $4-and-below gainers are considered weak, and they're all cheaper than this. Cobbler also can't take advantage of cost-reduction, except for Bridge Troll.

Rabble: The attack part usually doesn't do much, really.

Werewolf: It's neat that you can't draw it dead, but the fact that the attack and draw don't happen together is kind of a problem.

Artificer: Guess this is more proof that I'm not a top player. The gaining part is really difficult for me to find uses for; you have to discard a ton of stuff to gain anything remotely decent.

Outpost: It's still niche, in my opinion.

Underrated

Merchant Guild: It's good to see this go up, but I put it even higher. In engines it snowballs into a true monster.

Storyteller: Storyteller is nuts.

Embassy: It's untrue that that the draw doesn't really work in engines. The amazing draw/sifting is great at lining up engine parts.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 01:47:38 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 02:07:34 pm »
+2

Trade: This is the most overrated thing in the game. I have no idea why people like it so much. It's especially baffling that it's so high while Mine is so low. Mine is actually better; you only have to buy it once and gains the stuff to your hand. With Trade, you have to have play $5 and still have stuff in your hand to trash. You can forget about crucial early-game trashing.

I basically disagree with everything in your post but I only want to focus on this thing. Mine is very low because it doesn't serve any purpose in any deck ever. Trade is higher because it serves the purpose of early game economy in every type of deck that doesn't get rid of its Estates in a better way, and it does it really well especially for big money decks.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 02:32:57 pm by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 02:31:06 pm »
+3

Trade: This is the most overrated thing in the game. I have no idea why people like it so much. It's especially baffling that it's so high while Mine is so low. Mine is actually better; you only have to buy it once and gains the stuff to your hand. With Trade, you have to have play $5 and still have stuff in your hand to trash. You can forget about crucial early-game trashing.

I basically disagree with everything in your post but I only want to focus on this thing. Mine is very low because it doesn't serve any purpose in any deck ever. Trade is higher because it serves the purpose of early game economy in every type of deck that doesn't get rid of its Estates in a better way, and it does it really well especially big money decks.

It's not that Mine does nothing for the deck objectively, but the thing it does to is barely ever worth a terminal action. In a lot of cases, giving up a terminal slot is worse than giving up a $5 hand. And then you have to consider that using Trade to trash two Estates is basically worth four plays of Mine but the effect is immediate and you just spend $5 once. Compare that to Mine which requires that you spend $5, then play a terminal 4 times in order to get the same boost in economy. Plus Mine itself increases your deck size but Trade doesn't.

In addition, Trade boosts the baseline terminal draw money decks by a substantial amount. Mine really requires  Platinum to be effective, or else some expensive treasure card you want in multiples while also having good cycling.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 02:43:47 pm »
0

It's not that Mine does nothing for the deck objectively, but the thing it does to is barely ever worth a terminal action.

I mean that Mine doesn't fulfill any important role in any deck. If you want early game economy, Trade does that for you. Mine doesn't. It's not just that Mine isn't as good at doing that, it's that Mine is entirely incapable of doing that at all. If you want payload, Mine kind of almost does that, but it does it in a very inconvenient way and you're probably better off just buying Golds.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Fragasnap

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 02:48:43 pm »
0

Could someone better at the game than me contrast Tactician and Capital?  Outside of what I thought were fairly rare abuse cases, they seemed functionally similar enough (get big stuff all at once, but pay for it in tempo) such that I am surprised to see so many cards between them.  I figure I must be missing either how easy it is to circumvent Tactician's on-play cost or else am misunderstanding something fundamental.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 03:01:57 pm »
0

Could someone better at the game than me contrast Tactician and Capital?  Outside of what I thought were fairly rare abuse cases, they seemed functionally similar enough (get big stuff all at once, but pay for it in tempo) such that I am surprised to see so many cards between them.  I figure I must be missing either how easy it is to circumvent Tactician's on-play cost or else am misunderstanding something fundamental.

I'm not claiming to be better at the game, but here's my take:

The extra action and cards you get from Tactician lets you kick off a massive engine turn. Maybe you use that turn to buy/gain a bunch of stuff; maybe you use that turn to thin your deck; or maybe you cripple your opponent. You can probably do all of it if you're fortunate. In any case, all options are on the table. It's very flexible.

With Capital you are limited to having a lot of money and an extra buy.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 03:16:15 pm »
0

Could someone better at the game than me contrast Tactician and Capital?  Outside of what I thought were fairly rare abuse cases, they seemed functionally similar enough (get big stuff all at once, but pay for it in tempo) such that I am surprised to see so many cards between them.  I figure I must be missing either how easy it is to circumvent Tactician's on-play cost or else am misunderstanding something fundamental.

I honestly would never have paired the two cards as similar or related, even after reading this explanation. You aren’t playing Tactician primarily to produce larger buys - it’s to kick off an engine / megaturn / serve as a restricted but powerful form of draw. Capital does basically none of that.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 03:52:33 pm »
0

It's not that Mine does nothing for the deck objectively, but the thing it does to is barely ever worth a terminal action.

I mean that Mine doesn't fulfill any important role in any deck. If you want early game economy, Trade does that for you. Mine doesn't. It's not just that Mine isn't as good at doing that, it's that Mine is entirely incapable of doing that at all. If you want payload, Mine kind of almost does that, but it does it in a very inconvenient way and you're probably better off just buying Golds.

I think in a kingdom with both Mine and Trade, you need a board stacked in Mine's favour to pick Mine over Trade such as the "First Game" board but with Trade added. There, Mine gives you Gold to Remodel to Province and Remodel gets rid of Estates already. Somehow the non-Silver Treasure you get with Mine has to be pivotal to beat out Trade.

Even then, maybe the engine sneaks in a Trade buy at some point.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 07:43:38 pm »
0

Trade: This is the most overrated thing in the game. I have no idea why people like it so much. It's especially baffling that it's so high while Mine is so low. Mine is actually better; you only have to buy it once and gains the stuff to your hand. With Trade, you have to have play $5 and still have stuff in your hand to trash. You can forget about crucial early-game trashing.

I basically disagree with everything in your post but I only want to focus on this thing. Mine is very low because it doesn't serve any purpose in any deck ever. Trade is higher because it serves the purpose of early game economy in every type of deck that doesn't get rid of its Estates in a better way, and it does it really well especially big money decks.

It's not that Mine does nothing for the deck objectively, but the thing it does to is barely ever worth a terminal action. In a lot of cases, giving up a terminal slot is worse than giving up a $5 hand. And then you have to consider that using Trade to trash two Estates is basically worth four plays of Mine but the effect is immediate and you just spend $5 once. Compare that to Mine which requires that you spend $5, then play a terminal 4 times in order to get the same boost in economy. Plus Mine itself increases your deck size but Trade doesn't.

In addition, Trade boosts the baseline terminal draw money decks by a substantial amount. Mine really requires  Platinum to be effective, or else some expensive treasure card you want in multiples while also having good cycling.

Okay, fine, buying Trade when you happen to have 2 Estates in hand is the same as playing 4 Mines. But it normally takes a while before you can actually do that. Mine starts helping you much earlier. You don't need anything in your hand to trash, and the better treasures are gained to your hand.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 08:10:24 pm »
+2

Trade: This is the most overrated thing in the game. I have no idea why people like it so much. It's especially baffling that it's so high while Mine is so low. Mine is actually better; you only have to buy it once and gains the stuff to your hand. With Trade, you have to have play $5 and still have stuff in your hand to trash. You can forget about crucial early-game trashing.

I basically disagree with everything in your post but I only want to focus on this thing. Mine is very low because it doesn't serve any purpose in any deck ever. Trade is higher because it serves the purpose of early game economy in every type of deck that doesn't get rid of its Estates in a better way, and it does it really well especially big money decks.

It's not that Mine does nothing for the deck objectively, but the thing it does to is barely ever worth a terminal action. In a lot of cases, giving up a terminal slot is worse than giving up a $5 hand. And then you have to consider that using Trade to trash two Estates is basically worth four plays of Mine but the effect is immediate and you just spend $5 once. Compare that to Mine which requires that you spend $5, then play a terminal 4 times in order to get the same boost in economy. Plus Mine itself increases your deck size but Trade doesn't.

In addition, Trade boosts the baseline terminal draw money decks by a substantial amount. Mine really requires  Platinum to be effective, or else some expensive treasure card you want in multiples while also having good cycling.

Okay, fine, buying Trade when you happen to have 2 Estates in hand is the same as playing 4 Mines. But it normally takes a while before you can actually do that. Mine starts helping you much earlier. You don't need anything in your hand to trash, and the better treasures are gained to your hand.

Sometimes it takes awhile to trash 2 Estates with Trade, but sometimes it really doesn't. A simple Smithy variant or spiky cash terminal can easily get you there within the first 6 turns. The fact that Trade doesn't always make itself accessible early is partly why it isn't rated higher.

It is not necessary true that Mine starts helping you much earlier though. Like, it would have to be one of your earliest terminals, and then you have to hope it doesn't collide badly with other key terminals, of which there are many.

I'm not saying Mine isn't ever worth it, but wow it is hard to overstate how slow the card actually is. The alt-treasures you want to gain with it typically cost at least $4, and typically you can only get there by trashing a Silver or Heirloom.
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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $5 Cards, Part 2/3
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 10:48:48 pm »
0

the thing is, vampire isn't a very good card at all. it should be in the bottom third.
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