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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)  (Read 3146 times)

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markus

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+11

The Best Cards (Top Half)

LaLight provides comments for odd ranks and markus for even ranks.

#41 ▼5 Transmogrify (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
52.9%
Unweighted Average:
54.4%
Median:
53.1%
Standard Deviation:
21.1%

Transmogrify just like Duplicate has lost some ranks in this year. In my opinion, the problem with these Reserves is to play them in advance to get some bonus much later. But what makes Transmogrify somehow a little worse is that sometimes you don’t have anything to trash after starting Estates. And of course being the Reserve and therefore being very slow hurts Transmogrify a lot.
#40 ▲3 Farming Village (Cornucopia)
Weighted Average:
56.6%
Unweighted Average:
56.0%
Median:
59.3%
Standard Deviation:
16.7%

Farming Village has been stable over time in the middle of the ranking. It's a village that sometimes skips cards that you don't want to have - you're sad when it skips your Ghost.
#39  Diplomat (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
57.1%
Unweighted Average:
55.7%
Median:
51.9%
Standard Deviation:
18.1%

Diplomat is one of those cards which heavily depends on kingdom. Either the whole engine depends on presence of Diplomat or Diplomat won’t be bought for the whole game. But whatever said, Diplomat is much stronger than its predecessor, the Secret Chamber, both in Action and Reaction part.
#38 ▼2 Envoy (Promo)
Weighted Average:
58.7%
Unweighted Average:
54.5%
Median:
55.6%
Standard Deviation:
21.9%

Envoy has lost a bit and has just fallen behind Advisor.
Having to give up the (potentially) best card often does more harm than drawing one additional card compared to Smithy or its variants. It's nice if there's some other draw or sifting that ensures drawing the good cards that your opponent has discarded.
#37  Mill (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
59.7%
Unweighted Average:
53.3%
Median:
54.3%
Standard Deviation:
22.2%

The next second edition card in the list, Mill. Mill is a Great Hall+, being one of the ways to hit $5 on the second shuffle almost guaranteed. Other than that it has usual perks of being 2-type cards (Ironworks/Ironmonger etc. interactions) and overall is an average card.
#36 ▼4 Ironworks (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
59.7%
Unweighted Average:
57.1%
Median:
56.9%
Standard Deviation:
16.0%

Ironworks loses a bit this year, bringing it closer to Armory and Engineer.
Use it, if you want to gain many cards costing up to 4, or to potentially pile-out.
#35 ▲8 Advisor (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
59.9%
Unweighted Average:
57.8%
Median:
54.3%
Standard Deviation:
20.4%

After losing 2 ranks in the last year, Advisor gains back even 8! One person even put Advisor onto the first place (let’s look at the avatars). Advisor is a good spammable non-terminal drawcard that gets even better in the presence of many good trashers and yeah, we have a lot of those now.
#34  Exorcist (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
60.5%
Unweighted Average:
58.1%
Median:
56.8%
Standard Deviation:
24.1%

Exorcist is a new card that (still?) has a lot of variance in the ratings. I like it, because trashing Estates for Will-o'-Wisps is very nice early on. Imp is a nice card as well, that can be drawn by Will-o'-Wisps or play them. Finally, Ghost is a strong card but getting them with Exorcist is relatively costly and slow (gold gainers go well with it). It might not always be worth it to build that much.
#33 ▼9 Temple (Empires)
Weighted Average:
60.8%
Unweighted Average:
60.8%
Median:
58.0%
Standard Deviation:
22.7%

The Gathering trasher from Empires has lost 9 ranks in this years, going to 33rd place. Temple is a nice self-synergetic card (play Teples, buy Temples for VP, trash Temples with Temples) but it is quite slow as a trasher compared to a whole lot of other cards. It has the very same Average, weighted and not.
#32 ▼15 Sea Hag (Seaside)
Weighted Average:
60.9%
Unweighted Average:
62.3%
Median:
63.0%
Standard Deviation:
21.7%

Sea Hag is one of the biggest losers, dropping out of the best third.
Nowadays, there are many decent single-card trashers that can deal with the Hag's curses. And it doesn't provide any benefit other than junking, so its rank below Marauder for the first time seems justified. Still, it's a strong attack with immediate impact and I wouldn't expect her to fall much further.
#31 ▲10 Mining Village (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
61.0%
Unweighted Average:
56.8%
Median:
61.7%
Standard Deviation:
22.6%

Mining Village continues returning ranks to itself being whole +10 in this year! Villages get better, because there go more terminal cards and self-trashing works nice with Lurker and similar cards.
#30 ▲6 Salvager (Seaside)
Weighted Average:
61.9%
Unweighted Average:
63.4%
Median:
61.7%
Standard Deviation:
20.0%

After some losses in previous years, Salvager rises again in the rankings. Maybe opening it has become less attractive over time, but then there are more gold gainers that make it useful in the end game, as well as being able to mill Provinces.
#29 ▲9 Moneylender (Base)
Weighted Average:
62.0%
Unweighted Average:
62.1%
Median:
63.0%
Standard Deviation:
20.5%

The appearance of Heirlooms haven’t ruined Moneylender’s plans to get closer to the first place! +9 ranks and this is only a beginning of his plan. Seriously though, Copper trashing is super good.
#28 ▲1 Sacrifice (Empires)
Weighted Average:
62.2%
Unweighted Average:
63.3%
Median:
64.2%
Standard Deviation:
17.9%

Sacrifice stays where it was in its second year with a relatively low standard deviation. It is a decent trasher that you often want to open with. And sometimes it's going to save your turn when you use it as a Village - or it cleans up your ruins.
#27  Devil's Workshop (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
62.8%
Unweighted Average:
61.6%
Median:
58.0%
Standard Deviation:
21.7%

Another Nocturne card in the list. Devil’s Workshop is quite a universal card: it can give you a Gold, if you have no money, can give you more engine pieces if you have limited gains and can give you Imps just when you need them to have a weak draw in your engine if you don’t have any.
#26  Blessed Village (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
64.5%
Unweighted Average:
60.7%
Median:
64.2%
Standard Deviation:
20.3%

Blessed Village gets its first ranking a bit outside the top quarter. I can see it rising a bit in the future. It's one of the few Villages that can already be beneficial early on.
#25 ▼17 Jack of all Trades (Hinterlands)
Weighted Average:
64.7%
Unweighted Average:
70.9%
Median:
76.3%
Standard Deviation:
20.8%

I don’t think I will be wrong if I say this is the biggest loser in the list. Minus 17 ranks compared to the last year! Sorry, Jack, but Big Money gets more and more bad with time. But in no way it is a bad card! Jack still does what he does best: protects from attacks, draws-to-X and gains Silver. It was ranked twice on the first place.
#24 ▼3 Conspirator (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
64.9%
Unweighted Average:
67.8%
Median:
66.7%
Standard Deviation:
18.2%

Conspirator loses a few ranks this year after gaining last year. It has been pretty stable throughout. It's a very nice card if you're likely to activate it and there are probably more boards nowadays, where you can reasonably do that.
#23 ▼10 Young Witch (Cornucopia)
Weighted Average:
64.9%
Unweighted Average:
63.3%
Median:
69.1%
Standard Deviation:
22.5%

Another curser losing a lot of ranks, Young Witch. Cheap cards become better, trashing becomes better, sometimes you don’t buy YW even when there’s no more cursers on board. So Young Witch gets less and less attention (not counting Lord Rattington of course). It was ranked 1st twice.
#22 ▲2 Marauder (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
65.2%
Unweighted Average:
62.2%
Median:
65.4%
Standard Deviation:
22.0%

Marauder gained a couple of ranks after losing the year before, so it seems to have found its place. It is now the highest junker and only Militia is a higher-rated attack. It is definitely a nice card to open.
#21 ▲9 Procession (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
65.4%
Unweighted Average:
59.7%
Median:
67.6%
Standard Deviation:
24.1%

Procession is one of the best support cards in the game and one of the worst headaches for the players. It got 9 ranks compared to the last year because of its spectacular work with Durations, Reserves, cards you need for limited time (Pooka, Moneylender). And I won’t lie to say it makes the most interesting boards!
#20 ▲8 Caravan (Seaside)
Weighted Average:
65.4%
Unweighted Average:
64.7%
Median:
67.9%
Standard Deviation:
19.2%

Caravan wins the ranks that it lost the year before. Maybe Nocturne with its duration draw cards has contributed to that. Beginning-of-turn draw can be really nice for consistency, especially if there's also terminal draw on the board that you want to connect with your Villages. The well-known downside is that it misses shuffles and that you only get the benefit two turns after buying at the earliest.
#19 ▼2 Smithy (Base)
Weighted Average:
67.6%
Unweighted Average:
69.1%
Median:
74.1%
Standard Deviation:
18.0%

Smithy is the card that lets you draw 3 cards. You draw cards from the top of your deck, until you drew 3. Then you stop.
Seriously though, Smithy is one of the most important Dominion cards as draw is important, but lately there’s a lot of good draw other than it. So it lost a little, but still has the 19th rank.
#18  Shepherd (Nocturne)
Weighted Average:
67.6%
Unweighted Average:
65.0%
Median:
69.1%
Standard Deviation:
20.7%

Shepherd has made it to the top 20, becoming the highest-ranked Nocturne card.
I think that's well deserved. There are surprisingly many boards that have ways to make colliding Shepherd with victory cards likely (begining of turn draw, setting aside cards, sifting). On other boards you just use it as part of your engine that makes it more reliable while greening. Pasture means that there are more Victory cards around to begin with and Estates are worth more, making it harder to ignore a Shepherd-based engine.
#17 ▲2 Quarry (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
68.2%
Unweighted Average:
64.8%
Median:
66.7%
Standard Deviation:
18.9%

Quarry gets better as there is more Action cards in the game, so no surprises here. $4-card gainers’ rating increases, Quarry rating increases as well. + Quarry has a lot of awesome interactions, Quarry + Villa for one.
#16 ▲8 Fortress (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
68.7%
Unweighted Average:
65.0%
Median:
65.4%
Standard Deviation:
16.0%

Fortress gains another 8 ranks and has made it into the top 20% after starting out below average in 2013. This is in line with other Villages gaining ranks.
Often you're happy to get a plain Village for 4. On some boards with trash for benefits cards it becomes a really nice part of your payload. So watch out for those combos.
#15 ▲7 Plaza (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
69.5%
Unweighted Average:
65.8%
Median:
69.1%
Standard Deviation:
18.0%

Another proof of Villages getting better as there are more and more engines. Plaza becomes better if you have a lot of overdraw in your deck, which is now mostly the case. Discard the Treasures, draw them back, get coin tokens!
#14 ▲3 Militia (Base)
Weighted Average:
74.3%
Unweighted Average:
73.8%
Median:
77.8%
Standard Deviation:
12.7%

Militia rises a bit, undoing its loss last year. It is the strongest attack on this list. Well, you get it on most boards and often you already get it on your first shuffle.
#13 ▼5 Magpie (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
75.4%
Unweighted Average:
76.1%
Median:
82.7%
Standard Deviation:
19.9%

Magpie went down 5 places since the last year and this is quite expected. As it is good to have a lot of them mostly, there’s a lot of times you’re just thinking “so? I have a lot of cantrips, thank you very much”. Still when Magpie shines, it shines a lot.
#12 ▼6 Herald (Guilds)
Weighted Average:
76.7%
Unweighted Average:
76.7%
Median:
79.0%
Standard Deviation:
15.3%

Herald's continuous rise has ended and it has dropped out of the top 10.
It is a prime target for all workshop variants as having many Heralds in a deck with a high action density is really nice. It is weaker with Night cards and with cards that care more about the order of play (e.g. Leprechaun and Legionary). It's sometimes a bit awkward with mandatory trashers.
#11 ▲7 Worker's Village (Prosperity)
Weighted Average:
78.0%
Unweighted Average:
74.5%
Median:
80.3%
Standard Deviation:
17.0%

Another Village going up 7 places. This time with +Buy! This card is a lot of engine pieces in one, so expectedly it is in top.
#10 ▲3 Port (Adventures)
Weighted Average:
79.3%
Unweighted Average:
76.7%
Median:
84.0%
Standard Deviation:
17.8%

Also Port gains a few ranks bringing it just into the top 10. It's two Villages almost for the price of 1 without any extra buy. If you don't care much about the extra benefits that the other Villages on this list provide, it's the best way to increase your terminal space. And you can afford to buy a couple more than usual for consistency reasons.
#9 ▲1 Throne Room (Base)
Weighted Average:
81.2%
Unweighted Average:
78.8%
Median:
86.4%
Standard Deviation:
19.4%

Throne Room keeps its place in Top 10, even received one place higher, especially now, when it is not mandatory.  It got 1st place twice.
#8 ▲7 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands)
Weighted Average:
85.5%
Unweighted Average:
81.0%
Median:
88.2%
Standard Deviation:
18.1%

Spice Merchant gains impressive 7 ranks and is the second highest trasher on this list.
On the one hand, that is remarkable as it can only take care of your treasures. On the other hand, it does so in a very nice way. Often you play it as a non-terminal trasher that also cycles your deck. Then, it is not great for hitting $5 early. If that is important, it can sometimes be useful to play it for 2 coins (still not a good way to generally ensure hitting $5). And sometimes the +buy that comes with that option is what you're really looking for (and you need to find ways to not run out of fuel).
#7 ▲4 Villa (Empires)
Weighted Average:
86.9%
Unweighted Average:
80.5%
Median:
87.7%
Standard Deviation:
19.1%

Villa is in the Top 10 with +4 spots! It was ranked 4 times below average and 3 times on the first place. Outstanding card with outstanding ability.
#6 ▲3 Bridge (Intrigue)
Weighted Average:
87.4%
Unweighted Average:
84.4%
Median:
90.1%
Standard Deviation:
18.0%

Bridge rises another 3 ranks this year.
There's not much room anymore, but I think it could be even higher. Many boards allow for an engine using Bridge and then it is really dominating. You want to be the first one that pulls off the mega-turn. I think that people sometimes get it too early - you often don't need to open with it. Mid-game you often want to buy more than you can play just to deny your opponent. If you win the split 7-3, you'll have good chances to eventually win the game.
#5 =0 Ironmonger (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
87.6%
Unweighted Average:
82.6%
Median:
88.9%
Standard Deviation:
18.2%

Ironmonger stayed where it was with two votes below average and one first place vote. With a little nerf being Night Cards Ironmonger is still very spammable and essential in practically every game it appears.
#4  Sauna (Promo)
Weighted Average:
89.3%
Unweighted Average:
87.3%
Median:
91.4%
Standard Deviation:
12.9%

Sauna is the best new card of this list.
Together with Avanto it provides everything you need to get to 5 Provinces fairly quickly using a money-based strategy. It is relatively easy to execute and sets a high bar for competing engines - Rebuild has been considered a very strong card for a similar reason. But sometimes there is something better around and you can try an alternative strategy (if there's some faster/more reliable way of trashing). In particular, it is cumbersome for a Sauna-Avanto player to get 5 Saunas before uncovering Avantos. You might be able to do something better in the meantime and then win the Avanto split. Relying on Sauna-Avanto also doesn't allow you to build too big or add too many victory cards as you'll have troubles connecting your Saunas and Avantos.
#3 =0 Wandering Minstrel (Dark Ages)
Weighted Average:
89.7%
Unweighted Average:
83.4%
Median:
93.8%
Standard Deviation:
24.0%

5 votes below average, 4 votes for the first place, it’s Wandering Minstrel! Deviation of the card is quite high and it’s understandable. Whatever said Minstrel is a high-skill card, especially with the introducing of Night Cards. But good village is still a good village and Minstrel is the best Village for $4.
#2 =0 Tournament (Cornucopia)
Weighted Average:
91.7%
Unweighted Average:
87.9%
Median:
96.3%
Standard Deviation:
19.2%

Tournament keeps its #2 rank and has been consistently close to the top.
I'm not sure whether it deserves to be that high, in particular I disagree with the big difference relative to Poacher at #51. Of course, you almost always get it and try to get some of the 3 preferred Prizes and some Duchies maybe. That comes at the expense of building inefficiently. Also, a blocked Tournament is much worse than a Poacher that becomes an Oasis.
#1 =0 Remake (Cornucopia)
Weighted Average:
94.2%
Unweighted Average:
92.1%
Median:
97.5%
Standard Deviation:
11.9%

Remake remains #1 in the ranking being voted 1st 10 times. What is here to say, trashing is awesome, fast trashing is more awesome, Remake is the awesomest!
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2018, 04:09:51 am »
+2

There is a lot wrong with this list.

First, Temple is clearly a top 10 card; no idea what it's doing on its place.
Smithy and Envoy should be much closer together. Ironmonger is overrated. As is Villa by the way. Also, what the heck is Caravan doing there? I had it at, like, 60.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 04:17:48 am by faust »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 04:20:55 am »
+1

Young Witch and all the trashers (except for Remake) are underrated. Wandering Minstrel is overrated. Devil's Workshop and Shepherd are super overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2018, 04:26:54 am »
+3

There is a lot wrong with this list.

First, Temple is clearly a top 10 card; no idea what it's doing on its place.
Smithy and Envoy should be much closer together. Ironmonger is overrated. As is Villa by the way. Also, what the heck is Caravan doing there? I had it at, like, 60.

I also think there are some things wrong in the list. But there are too many great cards for Temple to be in the top 10 like ... Ironmonger and Villa!

For me the two most misplaced card in this list is are Mill and Exorcist. IIRC I put Mill somehwere in the top 10. You want to open Mill on most board where hitting $5 is important
(so almost always).

Exorcist trashes Estates and gives you something what is close to a Lab in the early game. Later you can easily trash some Silvers to get Imps. Admittedly it's all a bit slow, especially getting the Ghost, but it's worth it most of the time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2018, 05:09:01 am »
0

My experience with nocturne tells that it really lowers action density in your deck (nights, treasure gainers), so the high rises for all the Villages, Throne room, and especially Procession has a strange timing. Maybe its just the fact, that people are just realizing by how much engines are better than money?
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2018, 05:58:02 am »
+2

Okay, we are being WAY too hard on Jack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2018, 06:04:31 am »
0


LaLight provides comments for odd ranks and markus for even ranks.


Hmm...
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markus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 06:10:13 am »
0


LaLight provides comments for odd ranks and markus for even ranks.


Hmm...

That's how we split the list. Posting it as bottom and top half makes more sense, though. So half of the comments yesterday were mine and half of today's are Lalight's.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 08:39:52 am »
+2

I did not rank Advisor first. :P

I'm rather surprised Sauna got fourth while Jack has dropped so low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 11:23:41 am »
0

Most overrated

Villa: In my experience it hasn't been that game-breaking. The magic goes away once the pile empties, and then it's a crummy non-drawing village. Also, it's $4, so you'll need enough money left over to do something with after returning to Actions.

Temple: It's a great trasher. Not as fast as Remake, but still faster than most. The 2-card trashing also comes at the beginning, when it's most important.

Salvager: It's really not very good. It's slow, it doesn't give you anything for trashing Coppers, and trashing and milling for Provinces is something the low-ranked Remodel can also do.

Fortress: Srsly guys, it's just a more expensive village half the time, and maybe more.

Blessed Village: Srsly guys, it's just a more expensive village with a random marginal bonus when you gain it.

Worker's Village: Srsly guys, it's... a good village, but not THAT good.

Shepherd: I've played a lot of kingdoms where it happened to have great combos (Mill, Inheritance) but it still seems like most of the time, you'll want to get rid of the Estates and the Pasture and maybe get this as an okay green sifter toward the end.

Most underrated

Sea Hag: Yeah, I know all the hipsters have turned on the Hag. But really, it's a brutal attack and there usually needs to be elite trashing for it to not be worth it.

Conspirator: In my experience, it's very rare that this isn't a crucial card. You just need to pad your deck with some cantrips and this becomes a Grand Market without all the superfluous +Buys.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 12:06:50 pm »
+1

My experience with nocturne tells that it really lowers action density in your deck (nights, treasure gainers), so the high rises for all the Villages, Throne room, and especially Procession has a strange timing. Maybe its just the fact, that people are just realizing by how much engines are better than money?
I think it's too much to expect the rankings to have fully absorbed the impact of Nocturne already.  It's more like, we're finally absorbing the impact of Empires and 2nd edition, and maybe a bit of Adventures too.  Recall that the last time we did rankings, Empires wasn't even on Dominion online yet.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 12:18:38 pm »
+1

I might not be a top player (anymore?), but seriously, this is one weird list. Maybe I'm stuck in a pre-Empires mindset, but Jack at 25 and Sea Hag at 32 just seems wrong to me. At the very least Sea Hag should be WAY above Young Witch, who is clearly a lot weaker.

Villa also has no business being in the top 10. When I first saw it I thought it was broken, but it's really not that powerful.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 12:26:19 pm by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 12:19:58 pm »
0

The thing with the $4's is that they're of  a pretty flat powerlevel. Apart from Rebuild and Tournament being bonkers - I give the edge to Tournament there just because I find games where there is better trashing than Remake more common than games where prizes aren't worth going for.

Sauna does seem too high, I guess it is a bit of the Rebuild effect where it's a decent 1 card strategy, often it's better to go for other things though.

I still don't understand Envoy below Smithy, a lot of the time Envoy is a cheap Hunting Grounds.

Procession should be higher, but it's tricky to use and people don't like trashing their actions I guess.

Also people are crazy Villa is completely broken.
I don't think Ironmonger is top 5 material, Mill has kind of overtaken it as a premier non-terminal opener. Mill should be higher, much higher.

I have Spice Merchant in the top 5, a lot of the trashers seem a bit underrated here. Especially Exorcist, Exorcist feels weaker than it is I think because a lot of it's power is from the Wisps so it doesn't feel like the Exorcist is doing so much because it's the Wisps doing a lot of the work... I don't know though.

Shepherd will probably go down next year, but I haven't quite grasped the card yet. It seems high variance so I tend to avoid it when possible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 12:59:48 pm »
+1

Okay, we are being WAY too hard on Jack.
Would you rather we be way too hard on Jacques?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2018, 01:04:04 pm »
+2

Come on no love for Dismantle?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2018, 01:14:28 pm »
0

I'm not so sure I agree with Wandering Minstrel over Ironmonger. Like, I get it Wandering Minstrel sifts while giving Actions, but Ironmonger can basically do the same when you stack them, while still being strong in the early game. Wandering Minstrel does a better role of being an engine component, but Ironmonger is still good when you are playing money-centric in the way that Wandering Minstrel is not. Ironmonger is more flexible that way. Night cards and Curses are the biggest hindrance to Ironmonger, but Wandering Minstrel forces Night cards to be discarded anyway.

Spice Merchant gets recognition. I had it in the top 5. Mill is too low I think. I had it in the top 15.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2018, 01:45:41 pm »
+1


Villa: In my experience it hasn't been that game-breaking. The magic goes away once the pile empties, and then it's a crummy non-drawing village. Also, it's $4, so you'll need enough money left over to do something with after returning to Actions.


You're underrating just how magical the magic is while it's still in the supply. I find it to be gamebreaking often enough to deserve a high spot. Also, while Villa isn't amazing once it's in your deck, +buy is still good to have. It gives you two of the major engine pieces in one card. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2018, 02:54:12 pm »
0

Whoa whoa whoa hold the phone. I get that it's not exactly new and exciting, but there are absolutely not 24 $4cards better than jack of all trades. This card is like playing the game on easy mode. It minimizes the effect of every attack that I can think of, and allows you to empty provinces really really quick. It's a slightly boring strategy, but do you want to win or not? Getting 2 jacks wins you games. That's it. Get 2 of this card and your chance of winning is pretty darn good. I mean obviously going for a jack strategy won't always be best, especially with some landmarks, but going for a rebuild strategy isn't always best either and that's the reigning champ of $5 cards. Jack is at least a top 10 card. Don't overthink it.

I'm glad to see villa move up. That card is so game breakingly weird (in a good way) and enables you to do stuff that no other card can do. Especially with bridges and draw to x cards this gets beyond silly. I also hope that ironmonger and minstrel maintain their spots at the top. Despite being a little nerfed by night cards they're both soooooo good.

I'm not too surprised to see sea hag fall as much as it has considering it gives the user no real benefit. On that same note, I feel like young witch is just not that good. Like I think it's a bottom half card. The winds gift effect is really iffy on a terminal card and the presence of banes just doesn't make me comfortable going for it most of the time. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2018, 03:28:10 pm »
+5

Whoa whoa whoa hold the phone. I get that it's not exactly new and exciting, but there are absolutely not 24 $4cards better than jack of all trades. This card is like playing the game on easy mode. It minimizes the effect of every attack that I can think of, and allows you to empty provinces really really quick. It's a slightly boring strategy, but do you want to win or not? Getting 2 jacks wins you games. That's it. Get 2 of this card and your chance of winning is pretty darn good. I mean obviously going for a jack strategy won't always be best, especially with some landmarks, but going for a rebuild strategy isn't always best either and that's the reigning champ of $5 cards. Jack is at least a top 10 card. Don't overthink it.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 03:35:34 pm »
+1

Whoa whoa whoa hold the phone. I get that it's not exactly new and exciting, but there are absolutely not 24 $4cards better than jack of all trades. This card is like playing the game on easy mode. It minimizes the effect of every attack that I can think of, and allows you to empty provinces really really quick. It's a slightly boring strategy, but do you want to win or not? Getting 2 jacks wins you games. That's it. Get 2 of this card and your chance of winning is pretty darn good. I mean obviously going for a jack strategy won't always be best, especially with some landmarks, but going for a rebuild strategy isn't always best either and that's the reigning champ of $5 cards. Jack is at least a top 10 card. Don't overthink it.

Well, Rebuild is at least competitive with weaker engines. Jack/BM is not.

Although Rebuild is surely going to drop too.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 05:11:27 pm »
0

Come on no love for Dismantle?

I just had a very satisfying game wherein Dismantle netted me a key Duchy from a trashed Gold, but I still don't have a great feel for the card's value.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2018, 09:37:41 pm »
+1

Come on no love for Dismantle?

I just had a very satisfying game wherein Dismantle netted me a key Duchy from a trashed Gold, but I still don't have a great feel for the card's value.

Dismantle is pretty strong, as converting an Estate to a Gold and a Copper is very good in the early game. That is a terminal Treasure Trove plus without the $2, but with single trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2018, 11:19:34 pm »
+8

That is a terminal Treasure Trove plus without the $2, but with single trashing.

I prefer to think of it as a bag of gold, followed by a lab, followed by a trade route where I use my extra buy to purchase a copper. I find this really helps me estimate the strength of the action I'm taking.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 12:26:19 am »
0

Highlights/ top 10 from my list:

#45 Moneylender.  Great for the first couple shuffles. becomes junk in the midgame. maybe slightly underrated, but
 #29 is too high. I prefer faster trashers.
#43 Shepherd.  Maybe I need to play with it more? Hard to believe it's #18 though.
#31 Caravan.  I like Caravan, but it's isn't super strong.
#26 Transmogrify.  I probably put this a little too high, but it deserves better than #41.
#24 Villa.  It's great, but it's not top 10 material. (Above Fortress and Worker's Village, but below Plaza and Port. -I think I slightly underrated villages in general which is why I'm not listing most of them here...)
#19 Ironworks.  My 2nd favorite gainer (next to HoP of course). I may be a bit biased.
#12 Sea Hag.  I don't really like it, but it's still very strong.
#10 Young Witch.  again, $4 junkers are still strong.
#9 Temple.  I stand by this one. Temple is amazing.
#8 Ironmonger.  One of my favorite cards. not top 5.
#7 Militia.
#6 Sauna.
#5 Throne Room.  The original power card. (well, besides Chapel obviously)
#4 Bridge.
#3 Tournament.  (I still hate it)
#2 Wandering Minstrel.  (I once inherited it and started calling it 'Wandering Minstrate' without thinking...)
#1 Scout Remake

Villages: Plaza is better than Worker's Village (and Villa). Fortress should be closer to the weaker $4 villages.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:31:07 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 2 (Top Half)
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 03:06:55 am »
+2

Highlights/ top 10 from my list:

#45 Moneylender.  Great for the first couple shuffles. becomes junk in the midgame. maybe slightly underrated, but
 #29 is too high. I prefer faster trashers.

No, #29 is too low. Moneylender allows you to start building the deck already when you're trashing, which is extremely important.
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