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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)  (Read 1815 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2018, 03:04:43 pm »
+3

Quote
Let's just say that there are very few boards for 2-player games in which you want to get them.

Fixed that for you. Let's dispel this rumor that Pirate Ship is stronger in multiplayer games. Pirate Ship's weakness doesn't come from the chances that you'll whiff and not get a token when you play it. It comes from the fact that when you do get a token, you've also helped your opponent at least as much as you've helped yourself.

It's true that multiplayer gives the possibility of getting a token while only helping 1 opponent and not helping another... which perhaps is a slight strength increase. But not much.

Pirate Ship isnít stronger in multiplayer games because of the reduced miss chances (though thatís also a plus). Itís stronger because youíre being attacked by other Pirate Ships much more often, and thus you can quickly run low of or out of economy without a good source of virtual coin, of which Pirate Ship is one. This doesnít mean Pirate Ship is the best or anything, but thatís the mechanic in which it gets stronger with more players.
The "game theory" on that fails, though.  If player A buys a Pirate ship, and it comes to me, and I have 4 coins, and I know a Pirate Ship in a world with 1 Pirate Clan is terrible, and a Pirate ship in a world with 2 or 3 is ok, why would I buy one?  If I do buy one, then player C is going to get his coppers trashed hard enough that the property you are describing becomes true, where he needs the Pirate Ship to have access to bursts of virtual coin.
Then, as B, my choice to buy a Pirate Ship will have bought me an entry into a fair 3 player game where everyone has a Pirate Ship.

A superior decision is if, as B, I don't buy the Pirate Ship.  There is enough symmetry that C will also not buy a Pirate Ship.  Now B and C don't have a Pirate Ship, aren't starving for virtual coin, and A has a 4$ opening that's abysmal.  Now as B I only have to win a 2 player game, against C.


Why would I join a 3 player game instead of a 2 player game?

Therefore, A should anticipate this behavior from B and should not buy the Pirate Ship in the first place.

The fact that some of us have been C's and sat down at tables with bad players doesn't make the other two players' Pirate Ship purchases correct, even if it makes our eventual purchase correct.
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Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

markus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2018, 03:48:24 pm »
0

I think that Pirate Ship is not worth discussing, but the game theoretical argument doesn't work for 4p, if you believe that on some boards 2 players with Pirate Ships win against the 2 without.
Let's just say, I remember a game in which I tried to play with Fishing Village and Cutpurse as P4 against 3 Pirate Ship players, who also bought Coppers as they ran out of Treasures - didn't go that well for me.  :o
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2018, 04:22:54 pm »
0

Miser is definitely underrated. If you only have one, it's awfully slow, but if it's a board where it's good you'll want 2 or more anyway.

Talisman is underrated. The non-terminality and $ it gives are not to be underestimated. It's better than Armory, I think. Armory's topdecking isn't really exciting and can hurt if you're using it to grab some green. Engineer also deserved the rise.

Silk road is really bad. You need to be absolutely stuffed with green for it to be worth it.

I've barely ever gotten Ritual. It's hard for me to find times when it's actually better to sacrifice a good card for VP than just buy a Province.

I really don't get all the Mission hype. It's $4, so you're sacrificing buying something else for a turn where you can't buy anything at all. I'm not seeing the greatness.

Cemetery is... weird. It's a dead victory card, but you can buy it in the beginning to trash other dead and semi-dead stuff, as long as you have any of that stuff in your hand after plonking down $4 to buy the Cemetery. I've had a hard time grasping it and I'm not really sure how good it is.
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Dingan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2018, 05:39:34 pm »
0

I've barely ever gotten Ritual. It's hard for me to find times when it's actually better to sacrifice a good card for VP than just buy a Province.

I've also barely ever gotten it but it seems deceptively strong. I think it can really shine when: (1) you have Gold-gaining (or Platinum-gaining, etc.), (2) have a way to clean up the Curses, and (3) your opponent will choke on green.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2018, 06:00:24 pm »
0

I've barely ever gotten Ritual. It's hard for me to find times when it's actually better to sacrifice a good card for VP than just buy a Province.

I've also barely ever gotten it but it seems deceptively strong. I think it can really shine when: (1) you have Gold-gaining (or Platinum-gaining, etc.), (2) have a way to clean up the Curses, and (3) your opponent will choke on green.

That's a lot of conditions to satisfy. Going from Gold gain to Curse still increases your deck size by one, while having access to efficient Curse trashing suggests an engine that can make use of the Gold gainer to escalate payload is available. You'd have $7 to spend if you don't hold back Gold for Ritual, only one short of simply buying Province for the same amount of VP (more if you never get to trash the curse).
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markus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2018, 06:56:30 pm »
0

Yes, Ritual is just too expensive. The combination of costing 4, a buy, needing Curses in supply, and gaining that Curse means that you usually only go for it when you're desperate and need to catch up.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2018, 09:48:05 am »
+1

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
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Simon Jester

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2018, 11:15:57 am »
0

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.

Silver-gainers is fun though, and have it's uses. I can't say I would miss it (more than I miss Scout :(...) but I can understand why it didn't get the axe too. Is it worse than Coppersmith? Maybe, but I don't see the point to replace both of them. B-crat is alright.

It is a nice beginner card as well, to teach how hurtful green cards can be and how to counter such attacks, you gotta think of the newbs also and I don't think it is a dud in the same way on the BM+X-level..
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2018, 11:37:09 am »
+2

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.

Yeah, but the Bureaucrat is perhaps one of the most powerful cards in Dominion. It would be a shame to remove one of the most powerful cards in Dominion.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2018, 11:41:19 am »
+1


It is a nice beginner card as well, to teach how hurtful green cards can be and how to counter such attacks, you gotta think of the newbs also and I don't think it is a dud in the same way on the BM+X-level..

BM+Bureaucrat is worse than BM+Moat: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2532.msg39671.
I think starting with Estates does enough to teach you that Green cards aren't useful and you'll want to be careful about when you get them.

It's unique, I guess. Still there's probably a Silver gainer that would suit the base set more.
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Gazbag

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2018, 12:22:33 pm »
+1

I buy Curse more often than I buy Bureaucrat.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 12:48:51 pm »
+1

I still enjoy Bureaucrat in alt-VP slogs, like Gardens, Feodum, Silk Road, and Duke. Admittedly those are rare nowadays.
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Simon Jester

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2018, 12:56:28 pm »
+1

I buy Curse more often than I buy Bureaucrat.

Curse is in every game though, comparison invalid.

What an awful kingdom card Curse would have been...
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2018, 01:26:12 pm »
0

I buy Curse more often than I buy Bureaucrat.

Curse is in every game though, comparison invalid.

What an awful kingdom card Curse would have been...

Where would a 0-cost Confusion kingdom card rank I wonder? Maybe if you toy with the number of Confusions in the supply it can get around being dead last.
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Gazbag

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2018, 05:53:32 pm »
+1

I buy Curse more often than I buy Bureaucrat.

Curse is in every game though, comparison invalid.

What an awful kingdom card Curse would have been...

Okay I should have been more specific...

I buy Curse more often than Bureaucrat, in games in which both Curse and Bureaucrat are in the supply.

I assumed that was implied but I should have known better I suppose.
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Donald X.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2018, 04:23:14 am »
+6

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.
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ackmondual

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 12:22:36 am »
0

I put Cemetery in the top 10.  Strong trashing tends to get highly ranked, so people seem to be overlooking the fact that Cemetery is a really strong trasher.  It's like Bonfire but you can trash estates and curses.  It can easily be supported by terminal draw OR gaining OR money spiking.

I think all the other Nocturne cards also deserve to go up, particularly Conclave, and maybe Necromancer?  Necromancer is a funny one and mostly I think it deserves to have a higher standard deviation.

As for Mission, I ranked it right about where it is in the community rankings.  It's hard to judge these things that are sometimes amazing, and sometimes ignorable.  I mean, Ritual and Feodum are sometimes amazing too.  Mission is amazing a little more often, so it goes above those cards (except I put Ritual above Mission, surely that was a mistake!).  Well, it's around the 50% mark, and the median Dominion card tends to be pretty good.

Cemetery is like Bonfire, except you generally can't use it to good effect before the first reshuffle. And it costs $4. On the plus side, it can trash all sorts of junk, especially if you pair it with big draw. Some junkers like Witch and Cultist draw cards for you even. So, in practice it's very different from Bonfire. Bonfire is bought on weaker hands and spare buys, while Cemetery is bought on particularly strong hands.
If nothing else, Cemetery is the card that you can "Alms", so even if you can't hit $4, you're still set.
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ackmondual

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2018, 12:33:22 am »
+1


Silk road is really bad. You need to be absolutely stuffed with green for it to be worth it.
Think of it as a version of Gardens, but for Victory cards instead.  IIRC, you'd be hard pressed to fight a proper Colony deck, but it's got a decent shot if it's just going against Provinces.

I've barely ever gotten Ritual. It's hard for me to find times when it's actually better to sacrifice a good card for VP than just buy a Province.
When the game's winding down and you can't afford a Province, I wouldn't mind sacrificing a $5 card to get a net of 4pts.  Bonus pts if Tomb is in play, or the "negative Landmarks", and you trim the appropriate cards (Silver and Gold for Bandit Fort, Wall in most situations that take your deck past 15 cards, and Wolf Den to deal with singletons)

I really don't get all the Mission hype. It's $4, so you're sacrificing buying something else for a turn where you can't buy anything at all. I'm not seeing the greatness.
I try to count on buying Events.  It's also a way to cycle through your deck faster.  Otherwise, I usually don't bother with it.
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Jacob marley

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2018, 01:16:41 pm »
0

I think Conclave will go up next year, the lack of +1 card hurts it compared to other villages, but +2 coin is strong in the opening.  As long as there is a good variety of cards you want in your deck, and some draw, Conclave is strong.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2018, 07:42:02 am »
+1

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.

It's not just that it's weak. It manages to be both boring yet more complex than a typical base set card. There's also the possibility of pinning (although difficult) as another reason.

It would have been sensible to replace it, and replace Harem in Intrigue (weak card, bad art/concept, nothing going for it beyond its type). 7 each
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2018, 07:49:49 am »
0

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.

Even just regarding power level, I'd say Bureaucrat is stronger than any of those six cards.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2018, 08:38:16 am »
+1

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.

Even just regarding power level, I'd say Bureaucrat is stronger than any of those six cards.

No way.  Spy is actually a decent card power-level wise (I understand the motivation to remove it); stronger than Pearl Diver and Sage.  Chancellor and Woodcutter are also, IMO, stronger than their $4 counterparts (Navigator and Nomad Camp), which have been consistently rated higher than Bureaucrat.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2018, 08:47:36 am »
0

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.

Even just regarding power level, I'd say Bureaucrat is stronger than any of those six cards.

No way.  Spy is actually a decent card power-level wise (I understand the motivation to remove it); stronger than Pearl Diver and Sage.  Chancellor and Woodcutter are also, IMO, stronger than their $4 counterparts (Navigator and Nomad Camp), which have been consistently rated higher than Bureaucrat.

Spy sucks unless you can pull of some kind of synergy with a card that cares about the order of your deck (or, I guess, your opponent's). For $4 you're often much better off buying a village or draw card (if engine) or Silver (if BM/slog). $4 is not a price point at which you can justify being slightly better than a vanilla cantrip. As weak as Pearl Diver is, at least it has its low price tag going for it.

I think you mean Scavenger instead of Navigator, in which case its extra ability really does make quite a bit of difference. Maybe you're right about Woodcutter (you rarely want to topdeck it anyway), but that's mostly because +Buy is so good. Even then, Bureaucrat isn't that bad. It's one of the weaker $4 cards but it has its uses.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2018, 08:50:45 am »
0

I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.

Even just regarding power level, I'd say Bureaucrat is stronger than any of those six cards.

No way.  Spy is actually a decent card power-level wise (I understand the motivation to remove it); stronger than Pearl Diver and Sage.  Chancellor and Woodcutter are also, IMO, stronger than their $4 counterparts (Navigator and Nomad Camp), which have been consistently rated higher than Bureaucrat.

Spy sucks unless you can pull of some kind of synergy with a card that cares about the order of your deck (or, I guess, your opponent's). For $4 you're often much better off buying a village or draw card (if engine) or Silver (if BM/slog). $4 is not a price point at which you can justify being slightly better than a vanilla cantrip. As weak as Pearl Diver is, at least it has its low price tag going for it.

I think you mean Scavenger instead of Navigator, in which case its extra ability really does make quite a bit of difference. Maybe you're right about Woodcutter (you rarely want to topdeck it anyway), but that's mostly because +Buy is so good. Even then, Bureaucrat isn't that bad. It's one of the weaker $4 cards but it has its uses.

The issue I see is that the cases where Bureaucrat is good have taken a hit in power level. All those slog cards like Gardens, Silk Road, and Duke which can benefit from Bureaucrat (but not totally enabled by Bureaucrat mind you) feel weaker now. This is even reflected by the rankings. These slog cards tend to need stronger synergies than Bureaucrat can provide these days.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $4 Cards, Part 1 (Bottom Half)
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2018, 08:59:25 am »
0

Spy sucks unless you can pull of some kind of synergy with a card that cares about the order of your deck (or, I guess, your opponent's). For $4 you're often much better off buying a village or draw card (if engine) or Silver (if BM/slog). $4 is not a price point at which you can justify being slightly better than a vanilla cantrip. As weak as Pearl Diver is, at least it has its low price tag going for it.

I think you mean Scavenger instead of Navigator, in which case its extra ability really does make quite a bit of difference. Maybe you're right about Woodcutter (you rarely want to topdeck it anyway), but that's mostly because +Buy is so good. Even then, Bureaucrat isn't that bad. It's one of the weaker $4 cards but it has its uses.

I meant exactly what I said: Chancellor is stronger than Navigator.  You're right that you're usually better off buying another card over Spy, but sometimes Spy is the only innocuous card you can add to your engine at that price point, and it's better than nothing (and decent with Throne Room).  I remember buying Spy all the time.  It was never amazing, but it got bought (which is one of the reasons why it was rightly removed).  I haven't been motivated to buy a Bureaucrat in over a year, maybe longer.
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