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Author Topic: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half  (Read 4321 times)

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Gazbag

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2018, 01:38:53 pm »
0

Fortune Teller is terrible, most games where you don't mind a terminal over a Silver aren't the kind of games where it's attack matters much. I find it's usually a reverse-Chancellor, I think I'd take Duchess over Fortune Teller a lot of the time.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 09:06:59 am »
0

Harbinger could have been a great card if it wasn't designed with the same flaw as Counting House. Replace "+1 card" with "You may gain a Silver" and it would be an interesting card and never whiff. Too bad Donald X wanted to keep Bureaucrat for some reason (hopefully he'll also cover the $4s).
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 09:40:41 am »
+5

Harbinger could have been a great card if it wasn't designed with the same flaw as Counting House. Replace "+1 card" with "You may gain a Silver" and it would be an interesting card and never whiff. Too bad Donald X wanted to keep Bureaucrat for some reason (hopefully he'll also cover the $4s).

I would almost never buy the card youíre describing, but I Buy Harbinger a reasonable amount of the time. Itís a $3 vanilla cantrip - it doesnít have to be earth shattering.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2018, 10:22:50 am »
0

Harbinger could have been a great card if it wasn't designed with the same flaw as Counting House. Replace "+1 card" with "You may gain a Silver" and it would be an interesting card and never whiff. Too bad Donald X wanted to keep Bureaucrat for some reason (hopefully he'll also cover the $4s).

I would almost never buy the card youíre describing, but I Buy Harbinger a reasonable amount of the time. Itís a $3 vanilla cantrip - it doesnít have to be earth shattering.

The problem is situations where it works (it appears in the middle of a shuffle and the good cards are at the beginning) are unpredictable/luck based, and the cards that enable it contradict the need for it. At least the other $3 Cantrips, while not strong, either have a strategy to being useful (eg Merchant, Market Square, even Wishing Well) or are always useful despite being weak (Caravan Guard). Harmless and occasionally nice if you're lucky seems more like the domain of $2 cards, and even then they're a bit of a waste of space.

Perhaps I'm biased as every game I play with it, most of the time the card doesn't even work, sometimes due to its own +1 Card,  and attempts to make strategic use of its effect (eg cycling an early power card) always failed. Conversely, Scavenger is one of my favourite cards and very fun with Lost Arts.
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markusin

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 10:38:43 am »
+1

Harbinger at least has some self-synergy going for it.
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dominator 123

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 06:33:52 am »
0

Glad to see Workshop much much higher this year.
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Chris is me

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 06:46:02 am »
+3

Harbinger could have been a great card if it wasn't designed with the same flaw as Counting House. Replace "+1 card" with "You may gain a Silver" and it would be an interesting card and never whiff. Too bad Donald X wanted to keep Bureaucrat for some reason (hopefully he'll also cover the $4s).

I would almost never buy the card youíre describing, but I Buy Harbinger a reasonable amount of the time. Itís a $3 vanilla cantrip - it doesnít have to be earth shattering.

The problem is situations where it works (it appears in the middle of a shuffle and the good cards are at the beginning) are unpredictable/luck based, and the cards that enable it contradict the need for it. At least the other $3 Cantrips, while not strong, either have a strategy to being useful (eg Merchant, Market Square, even Wishing Well) or are always useful despite being weak (Caravan Guard). Harmless and occasionally nice if you're lucky seems more like the domain of $2 cards, and even then they're a bit of a waste of space.

Perhaps I'm biased as every game I play with it, most of the time the card doesn't even work, sometimes due to its own +1 Card,  and attempts to make strategic use of its effect (eg cycling an early power card) always failed. Conversely, Scavenger is one of my favourite cards and very fun with Lost Arts.

Youíre really missing the point. If it didnít draw, you would basically never buy it. It would be horrible to exchange 1 card in hand in order to put one on top of your deck. An effect that minor has to have minimal opportunity cost to work.

Youíre never like ďoh, Harbinger, thatís a critical card hereĒ, but you get a few because why not, and then hey, you got to topdeck that card you gained midturn with Workshop, neat. Or maybe itís a sloggier game and you got another play of Mountebank in this shuffle - cool. Itís a vanilla $3 cantrip, donít expect a lot of it. The situations where the draw hurts it are really only in the exact moment where you have zero cards in deck, and thatís it.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 01:07:35 pm »
+1

So, I really don't get why the fix for Harbinger is to turn it into a Bureaucrat variant. I think Donald's comments in this thread sum up my feelings on the card pretty accurately.

Itís a vanilla $3 cantrip, donít expect a lot of it.

The power level of Harbinger feels a lot more like a $2 cantrip to me. Compare it with Patrician or Vagrant. It always replaces itself but occasionally it can do something more. I think it's only somewhat better than Pearl Diver, and that was ranked one of the worst $2 cards.

But of course, not every card can meet expectations.
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GendoIkari

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 01:19:16 pm »
+1

Harbinger could have been a great card if it wasn't designed with the same flaw as Counting House. Replace "+1 card" with "You may gain a Silver" and it would be an interesting card and never whiff. Too bad Donald X wanted to keep Bureaucrat for some reason (hopefully he'll also cover the $4s).

I would almost never buy the card youíre describing, but I Buy Harbinger a reasonable amount of the time. Itís a $3 vanilla cantrip - it doesnít have to be earth shattering.

The problem is situations where it works (it appears in the middle of a shuffle and the good cards are at the beginning) are unpredictable/luck based, and the cards that enable it contradict the need for it. At least the other $3 Cantrips, while not strong, either have a strategy to being useful (eg Merchant, Market Square, even Wishing Well) or are always useful despite being weak (Caravan Guard). Harmless and occasionally nice if you're lucky seems more like the domain of $2 cards, and even then they're a bit of a waste of space.

Perhaps I'm biased as every game I play with it, most of the time the card doesn't even work, sometimes due to its own +1 Card,  and attempts to make strategic use of its effect (eg cycling an early power card) always failed. Conversely, Scavenger is one of my favourite cards and very fun with Lost Arts.

I'm confused... wouldn't the only time its own +1 card be a drawback be when you have exactly 0 cards in your draw pile when you play it? That doesn't sound like it would be a very common thing at all; it should happen roughly one out of every x times, where x is the number of cards in your deck minus your hand size.

Also, it's own +1 card makes it so that with multiple, you can instantly draw the card that you chose. Of course, like Spy, it would be much better if the +1 card happened after the ability, but I'm guessing that would have been too strong.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 03:58:39 pm »
0

Harbinger could have been a great card if it wasn't designed with the same flaw as Counting House. Replace "+1 card" with "You may gain a Silver" and it would be an interesting card and never whiff. Too bad Donald X wanted to keep Bureaucrat for some reason (hopefully he'll also cover the $4s).

I would almost never buy the card youíre describing, but I Buy Harbinger a reasonable amount of the time. Itís a $3 vanilla cantrip - it doesnít have to be earth shattering.

The problem is situations where it works (it appears in the middle of a shuffle and the good cards are at the beginning) are unpredictable/luck based, and the cards that enable it contradict the need for it. At least the other $3 Cantrips, while not strong, either have a strategy to being useful (eg Merchant, Market Square, even Wishing Well) or are always useful despite being weak (Caravan Guard). Harmless and occasionally nice if you're lucky seems more like the domain of $2 cards, and even then they're a bit of a waste of space.

Perhaps I'm biased as every game I play with it, most of the time the card doesn't even work, sometimes due to its own +1 Card,  and attempts to make strategic use of its effect (eg cycling an early power card) always failed. Conversely, Scavenger is one of my favourite cards and very fun with Lost Arts.

I'm confused... wouldn't the only time its own +1 card be a drawback be when you have exactly 0 cards in your draw pile when you play it? That doesn't sound like it would be a very common thing at all; it should happen roughly one out of every x times, where x is the number of cards in your deck minus your hand size.

It happens often enough to be frustrating, and particularly if you have multiple copies.

I think I'd be ok with it if it cost $2, or if it was the additional effect on a $4 village or $5 Peddler variant then I'd be more accepting of  how often the card does nothing.

The mechanic would have also been good on a Night card;  interacting with a card you just gained or better.
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Awaclus

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2018, 04:09:00 pm »
+2

I think it's only somewhat better than Pearl Diver, and that was ranked one of the worst $2 cards.

I actually think Pearl Diver is better (even if you ignore cost, that is).
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2018, 06:05:50 pm »
0

I think it's only somewhat better than Pearl Diver, and that was ranked one of the worst $2 cards.

I actually think Pearl Diver is better (even if you ignore cost, that is).

When you're a cantrip declared worse than the archetypal "do nothing" cantrip is when you know you really have problems.
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aku_chi

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 06:12:43 pm »
+6

Harbinger is fine.  Ya'all need to play some more kingdoms where there's no draw to appreciate it.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2018, 04:00:37 am »
+5

Harbinger is not amazing, but clearly better than Pearl Diver. I recently bought two of them in a Page game, and I wasn't disappointed.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2018, 05:16:32 am »
0

Harbinger is not amazing, but clearly better than Pearl Diver. I recently bought two of them in a Page game, and I wasn't disappointed.

Both Pearl Diver and Harbinger would be a lot better if more cards cared about the top card of your deck, but Donald X has a bad habit of putting those effects on cantrips, after the draw.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 05:17:44 am by NoMoreFun »
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Awaclus

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2018, 05:39:26 am »
0

Harbinger is not amazing, but clearly better than Pearl Diver. I recently bought two of them in a Page game, and I wasn't disappointed.

I buy Pearl Divers all the time and I'm never disappointed.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2018, 06:47:20 am »
+1

Harbinger is probably better if you play a lot of games with just the 2e Base set, because then it will show up a lot with Vassal, with which it has a genuine synergy.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2018, 07:46:07 am »
0

Harbinger is probably better if you play a lot of games with just the 2e Base set, because then it will show up a lot with Vassal, with which it has a genuine synergy.

With Vassal, Harbinger works well because it does something useful even if it only topdecks another cantrip, for example another Harbinger. It is a bit of a shame how so few cards interact with the top of the deck, or at least interact with it nonterminally.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2018, 08:06:30 am »
0

Harbinger is probably better if you play a lot of games with just the 2e Base set, because then it will show up a lot with Vassal, with which it has a genuine synergy.

With Vassal, Harbinger works well because it does something useful even if it only topdecks another cantrip, for example another Harbinger. It is a bit of a shame how so few cards interact with the top of the deck, or at least interact with it nonterminally.

I think it's just Vassal and Mystic for good cards and Lookout, Doctor and Zombie Mason for trashing. There's a bunch of others that interact with the top card but only after drawing a card.
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faust

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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2018, 08:26:42 am »
0

Harbinger is probably better if you play a lot of games with just the 2e Base set, because then it will show up a lot with Vassal, with which it has a genuine synergy.

With Vassal, Harbinger works well because it does something useful even if it only topdecks another cantrip, for example another Harbinger. It is a bit of a shame how so few cards interact with the top of the deck, or at least interact with it nonterminally.

I think it's just Vassal and Mystic for good cards and Lookout, Doctor and Zombie Mason for trashing. There's a bunch of others that interact with the top card but only after drawing a card.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2018, 11:34:36 am »
0

So how good would it be if you just rearranged Harbinger so the cantrip was after the topdecking? Still a $3 card?
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2018, 12:03:00 pm »
0

It would ruin the mini-game of topdecking, plus also playing another card to get it into your hand.
It would also ruin all the synergies that such things create with things like wisp and chariot race.

I don't think it would be broken, but it would be much less fun.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2018, 12:29:27 pm »
+1

It would ruin the mini-game of topdecking, plus also playing another card to get it into your hand.
It would also ruin all the synergies that such things create with things like wisp and chariot race.

I don't think it would be broken, but it would be much less fun.

It wouldn't ruin the synergy with Wisp because Harbinger doesn't have any synergy with Wisp to begin with.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2018, 04:57:44 am »
+1

Fool's a bit underrated, IMO. A deck with Lost In The Woods is strictly better than a deck without it (ignoring opportunity cost to get it). And nothing says you have to discard. Just having the choice is nice. I like cards that give you choices (Pawn, Steward, etc.). If you get Fool out of your deck, and no one else ever plays one, then all the better. Fool synergizes with things like draw-to-x, slogs, Menagerie, Prince (when both players Prince it), and probably other things I can't think of.

If Heirlooms are included with rankings (I wouldn't think they should be), then yeah Fool is probably correctly-rated.
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Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2018, 09:52:49 am »
+1

Fool synergizes with things like draw-to-x, slogs, Menagerie, Prince (when both players Prince it), and probably other things I can't think of.

The first player to Prince a Fool is a fool.
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