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Gazbag

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Meld
« on: January 10, 2018, 12:14:04 pm »
+8


Meld is a mini Forge thing, but instead of gaining real cards, you get chimeras! Because of course Melding together an Estate and a Copper would result in a 2 headed lion-snake thing. The Chimeras cost 2,4 and 6, meaning Meld can be used trash 2 Coppers and gain nothing and giving the chimeras price points that interact nicely with Estate and Potion trashing. The art is good, but it isn't exactly what I had in mind, ah well.


This is the cheapest and weakest Chimera, it is Refugees, which I shamelessly stole it from Co0kieL0rd's Roots and Renewal (with permission) it just seemed like the perfect fit for the small Chimera, getting across the idea of it being an amalgamation of cards. I am thinking that this could also have +1 Buy as an option, that make's it strictly better than Pawn, but that is allowed on a non-supply pile. I would worry then though that the Meld+Chimera piles would have everything an engine needs (trashing, +actions, +cards, +buy and an attack) and be too much in one.


The middle Chimera, I wanted to try and capture the "amalgamation" feeling by giving the chimeras variable effects and using different things for each one. Nimble Chimera is a fancy Pawn thing, this one is a fat Wishing Well. It is probably the one that I'm least happy with, it might actually be weak on average given that your deck is going to have a Potion and Meld and these differently named Chimeras. I do want it to be a non-terminal cantrippy type thing but maybe I'll think of something different. I guess these chimeras are an opportunity to do cards that interact with Potion, I'll have to see if I can think of anything compelling.


Grrrr this ones cranky! I knew I wanted this one to be a Smithy with something else and an attack seemed like a decent thing to do, especially when I found the art. I think in a game with Meld a handsize attack is worse than a junking attack? Also handsize attacks tend to cripple money-based things so there is a bit of logic behind the trigger. I like the idea that this guy is out of control so it's still doing a variable effect but this time you have no control over it. I feel like it's different enough from Torturer, but maybe that comparison makes it less exciting?

Thanks go to Co0kieL0rd for letting me steal his card and giving me some wording/idiot fixes.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Meld
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2018, 02:24:30 pm »
+1

They seem interesting!
Nimble seems perfect, and I wouldn't add +Buy for the reasons you stated.
Majestic seems very weak. Considering that it's in a trio of can-be-necropolis and terminal draw, using it as draw seems awkward, and as a support card I can see it being enraging when it makes your good-but-unique cards miss the shuffle (eg. potion or meld, as you said).
Raging Chimera could maybe be more straightforward by simply setting an amount of allowed Treasures (or Actions)?
Something like: "every other player reveals their hand. If they revealed three or more Treasures, they discard down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, they gain a Curse."
Then you can make it stack really weird by adding: "...and draw a card."

Maybe the better limit is 2 treasures, but that wouldn't curse very often...

Anyway, my only other criticism is that it's 3 draw cards. Maybe the Majestic spot can be filled by some sort of funky non-attack payload card?
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loneXolf

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Re: Meld
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2018, 02:31:33 pm »
+1

Meld- Looks like a pretty fun card to play with. Maybe giving Meld the coin cost of 2 with a potion would support buying multiple copies of melds more, but I understand why you didn't since drawing potion, copper, x3 estate, would be triggering but that would be rare, also the potion cost alone makes it easier to buy with +buys. I also would had like if one of the Chimeras interacted with potions in some way, but maybe that's fine since you want to trash potions with meld.

Nimble Chimera- A way more flexible pawn without the +buy, seems fine. My only possible concern it looks so consistent and flexible that it might be gained over the 4 costed Chimera pretty often.

Majestic Chimera- Not sure how good this card would be. Like you said it looks weak since you're putting Potion, Meld, and different Chimeras into your deck while trashing.

Raging Chimera- Doesn't really seem like the reason to buy a meld, which is a tad disappointing to me since it's the biggest Chimera. Sure Raging Chimera is sorta strong and it looks fairly easy to get when you buy a Meld but it just seems to be a run of the mill Smithy attack to me. Which is fine. It's probably it's just me expecting a extremely unique effect like Teacher or Champion, since Meld reminds me of a Traveler line.

gloures

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Re: Meld
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 02:38:24 pm »
+1

Wow! This is a really cool idea! Loved it... Nimble Chimera and Raging Chimera are both great cards! Only problem is that i feel that Majestic Chimera is way too weak, I think i would take Nimble over Majestic in most cases when given the choice. Of the top of my head one idea that seems worth testing is adding something like "if there were no matches, +1 Card'' it would push the card a little more towards wishing to what you actually want to draw, instead of what is more probable to have in the top of your deck and it would avoid the times where you play this as a sad Ruined Village.
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markusin

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Re: Meld
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 02:45:57 pm »
+1

For Majestic Chimera, I would suggest having the non-matches be placed on top of your deck in any order, Scout style. This way it synergizes with Nimble and Majestic Chimera, as well as a bunch of other cards.

Alternatively, make it give +2 Actions instead? That works well with the other Chimeras.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:48:00 pm by markusin »
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Chappy7

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Re: Meld
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 03:50:19 pm »
+1

For Majestic Chimera, I would suggest having the non-matches be placed on top of your deck in any order, Scout style. This way it synergizes with Nimble and Majestic Chimera, as well as a bunch of other cards.

Alternatively, make it give +2 Actions instead? That works well with the other Chimeras.

I agree that 2 actions could make it work.  Or, along the same scout-like idea, have it give you the option of top decking or discarding any non matches like a Cartographer.

I really like meld by the way. 
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markusin

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Re: Meld
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 04:15:32 pm »
+1

Yes, I forgot to mention that I like Meld as well. It reminds me of Exorcist, a card I am quite fond of. Meld requires Potion to buy, but it trashes two cards.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Meld
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 05:00:42 pm »
+3

Yes, I forgot to mention that I like Meld as well. It reminds me of Exorcist, a card I am quite fond of. Meld requires Potion to buy, but it trashes two cards.

Yeah, but imagine how much better it could be if instead, it trashed 1 card and itself! And also trashed the potion you played when you bought it!
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Gazbag

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Re: Meld
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 05:47:44 pm »
+3

They seem interesting!
Nimble seems perfect, and I wouldn't add +Buy for the reasons you stated.
Majestic seems very weak. Considering that it's in a trio of can-be-necropolis and terminal draw, using it as draw seems awkward, and as a support card I can see it being enraging when it makes your good-but-unique cards miss the shuffle (eg. potion or meld, as you said).
Raging Chimera could maybe be more straightforward by simply setting an amount of allowed Treasures (or Actions)?
Something like: "every other player reveals their hand. If they revealed three or more Treasures, they discard down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, they gain a Curse."
Then you can make it stack really weird by adding: "...and draw a card."

Maybe the better limit is 2 treasures, but that wouldn't curse very often...

Anyway, my only other criticism is that it's 3 draw cards. Maybe the Majestic spot can be filled by some sort of funky non-attack payload card?

Yeah I'm happy with Nimble - I also really like the word nimble.

Majestic Chimera certainly needs an update, yes.

I'm sure Raging could be worded better, thanks for the suggestion, I'll have to type it out on the card and see how it looks.

I think the Chimeras want to do similar things so they don't just build a deck on their own. They're already doing a wider range of things than the Spirits, which are just 2 Lab variants and a throney-golem-duration thing. I do think that's okay because of the restrictive Potion cost though.

Meld- Looks like a pretty fun card to play with. Maybe giving Meld the coin cost of 2 with a potion would support buying multiple copies of melds more, but I understand why you didn't since drawing potion, copper, x3 estate, would be triggering but that would be rare, also the potion cost alone makes it easier to buy with +buys. I also would had like if one of the Chimeras interacted with potions in some way, but maybe that's fine since you want to trash potions with meld.

Nimble Chimera- A way more flexible pawn without the +buy, seems fine. My only possible concern it looks so consistent and flexible that it might be gained over the 4 costed Chimera pretty often.

Majestic Chimera- Not sure how good this card would be. Like you said it looks weak since you're putting Potion, Meld, and different Chimeras into your deck while trashing.

Raging Chimera- Doesn't really seem like the reason to buy a meld, which is a tad disappointing to me since it's the biggest Chimera. Sure Raging Chimera is sorta strong and it looks fairly easy to get when you buy a Meld but it just seems to be a run of the mill Smithy attack to me. Which is fine. It's probably it's just me expecting a extremely unique effect like Teacher or Champion, since Meld reminds me of a Traveler line.

Nimble- is super flexible you're right, but it's still only going to be a Necropolis or +2 cards or whatever so it isn't very strong. Lack of +Buy also gives it less utility than Pawn in some ways.

Majestic- this is the dud of the bunch, the problem you pointed out with taking Nimble over this is a problem with this, not Nimble. Although it is a big problem.

Raging- remember that if you collide your Potion with Meld and an Estate you can get this with your first Meld play, so it isn't really restricted to late stages of the game like Champ or Teacher. Torturer and Margrave are both insane cards, but maybe their existence makes this seem too unexciting? Even though it is also crazy strong- and always comes with a village in Nimble Chimera!

Yes, I forgot to mention that I like Meld as well. It reminds me of Exorcist, a card I am quite fond of. Meld requires Potion to buy, but it trashes two cards.

Oh yeah Meld is a total Exorcist rip-off for sure. Perhaps I'll try to think of some other things that gain Chimeras as a mini-expansion type thing.

So the takeaway is that the idea is well received and resonant with people, but Majestic Chimera sucks.

To fix Majestic Chimera it could draw revealed potions Apothecary style or yeah being able to discard what you want and put the rest back like Cartographer is a decent option too. Although that will make it a lot wordier which isn't ideal. Maybe you could name a card type and it draws those? That might be a bit crazy, always showing up along with a good trasher in Meld and village+attack in the other Chimeras? Maybe it could give +1 card and then reveal the next 2 and put them on top so it's easier to trigger multiples? That might be my favourite change, although that makes it quite a lot stronger. Or maybe I'll think of something new.

Anyway thanks for all the comments everyone!
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ipofanes

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Re: Meld
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 05:00:05 am »
0

The wording (or punctuating) seems to be a nod to the current Interview with Donald X. thread. I think no Dominion card uses a semicolon currently.
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Awaclus

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Re: Meld
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 05:03:59 am »
+2

The wording (or punctuating) seems to be a nod to the current Interview with Donald X. thread. I think no Dominion card uses a semicolon currently.

You think wrong. All the choice cards use semicolons to separate the different choices.
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Asper

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Re: Meld
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 09:23:56 am »
+1

Majestic Chimera could be a cantrip as a baseline and/or also put Potions in your hand. Or even be a cantrip, reveal only two cards, and draw all Actions and Potions it reveals. A mix of Apothecary and Scrying Pool, so to speak.

Thanar

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Re: Meld
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:00 am »
+1

Since it needs a boost, how about changing the start of Majestic Chimera to "Name two cards" (leaving the rest the same)?


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Chappy7

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Re: Meld
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 04:05:05 pm »
0

Do you think it could be worth it to add something onto meld that gives a bonus for trashing other potion cost cards like apprentice does?
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Gazbag

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Re: Meld
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 04:29:58 pm »
0

I have loads of new Majestic Chimeras, I'll just have to see which one I like best now. Also see whether Raging works well enough.

Do you think it could be worth it to add something onto meld that gives a bonus for trashing other potion cost cards like apprentice does?

I did consider making the expensive Chimera cost 3p, but I thought it might be a little annoying because you'd have to line up 2 Melds. Not as bad as Urchin because Melds trash and you can't open with them, but probably not a particularly enjoyable experience. To be honest the Potion part on Apprentice is a bit of a waste of text, it rarely matters. I guess it explains on the card what happens if you trash a Potion cost card which has some value.
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Gazbag

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Re: Meld
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2018, 11:22:54 am »
+1

I got chance to do a test game with Meld last night. Unfortunately there was another card we tested at the same time that was completely broken which somewhat overshadowed Meld, but it still got bought and seemed fun. We used a version of Nimble Chimera that was:
Quote
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and put the revealed Actions into your hand.

That was just too strong as the $4 Chimera, it turns out limiting Scrying Pool to 3 cards is still super strong. The other worries with Meld were the swing factor of lining up 2 Estates and the engine-in-one nature of the pile. I might get rid of the Raging Chimera attack and make this Majestic Chimera be the expensive one and think of something new for the $4 one. I am also thinking of changing Meld to trash differently named cards to alleviate the 2 Estates thing.

Finally here is another card that uses a Chimera:
Incubator:


It is a Smithy that Remodels the 3rd card that it draws, if you trash it you get a free Chimera! This was super fun in the game we played  and seemed at a reasonable power. The game we played involved Rats and Forge, even with Rats this didn't seem too over the top.
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loneXolf

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Re: Meld
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 05:02:07 am »
0

Incubator- Seems to be a high-end smithy clone which chould be fine for 3 and a potion, I think. Random comments... If you keep hitting coppers with the trash ability you might not get much benefit off of Incubator in kingdoms without a good 2 cost; I can see hitting estates being pretty Swingy; Incubator seems to require heavier support than Scrying pool, Familiar, and Alchemist which can be rough for a potion cost card.

luser

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Re: Meld
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2018, 04:37:42 pm »
0

How did you test that? It looks like too weak card on most board if I compare that with skipping it. With potion cost trashing looks slow and chimeras are a weaker remodel variant. if one had +3 cards +1 action as 4 cost chimera it would be reasonable as you need gain 4 cost card, then play meld, then you could get that drawer. Raging chimera looks mosty like smithy for cost of gold. Discard attack most useful part there cursing comes too late when engine is already running and could trash all curses.
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Gazbag

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Re: Meld
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2018, 05:42:00 am »
0

How did you test that? It looks like too weak card on most board if I compare that with skipping it. With potion cost trashing looks slow and chimeras are a weaker remodel variant. if one had +3 cards +1 action as 4 cost chimera it would be reasonable as you need gain 4 cost card, then play meld, then you could get that drawer. Raging chimera looks mosty like smithy for cost of gold. Discard attack most useful part there cursing comes too late when engine is already running and could trash all curses.

We played games of dominion with it, lol. You are really underestimating this is all I can really say. It's more of a Remake variant than Remodel, because it trashes 2 cards, actually reading your comment you seem to think it only trashes 1 card? You can trash 2 estates to get the $4 Chimera, a Potion and an Estate to get the $6, you can even just trash 2 Coppers if you want. Also keep in mind that this pile is a trasher, a (weak) village, lots of draw and an attack in one. It's certainly on the end of too much, if anything it needs to be toned down a bit.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Meld
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2018, 12:09:54 pm »
+2

Incubator looks very cool but the combination of random targeting and "+2" remodeling might make it very swingy - both at the beginning (Estate vs Copper) and at the end (random Province gains).
What if it revealed 3, put two into hand, and remodeled the third (gaining to hand)? It's much more powerful, but 3p is pretty expensive. You could always make it a "up to +1 coin" remodel. The Transmogrify-like flexibility would more than make up for the more limited gaining.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:11:13 pm by Accatitippi »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Meld
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2018, 01:46:39 pm »
0

Incubator looks very cool but the combination of random targeting and "+2" remodeling might make it very swingy - both at the beginning (Estate vs Copper) and at the end (random Province gains).
What if it revealed 3, put two into hand, and remodeled the third (gaining to hand)? It's much more powerful, but 3p is pretty expensive. You could always make it a "up to +1 coin" remodel. The Transmogrify-like flexibility would more than make up for the more limited gaining.

I've thought about this some more, and even with the Potion cost, this might be very strong in a Big Money setting. Estates to silvers and Potion to something nonterminal is pretty impressive, and occasionally milling Provinces even more so. It also tolerates very well nonterminal additions to the deck, because if you'd draw them dead you can just incubate them into some treasure, or a Duchy. Beware.
(Otoh, it's also a decent Engine component, for flexibility and stuff).
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Screwyioux

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Re: Meld
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2018, 09:22:50 am »
0

I'm a fan of this card.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Meld
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 09:33:54 am »
+1

My only suggestion is that the chimeras should be called
"Small Chimera," "Medium Chimera" and "Large Chimera."
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Gazbag

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Re: Meld
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2018, 11:38:48 am »
0

Thanks! I think it still needs some balancing work, I'm sure I'll get around to it eventually.

Yeah that's a pretty good suggestion for the names actually, when I get around to tweaking these I'll probs change the names, too lazy right now though!
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weesh

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Re: Meld
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 11:44:27 am »
+1

My only suggestion is that the chimeras should be called
"Small Chimera," "Medium Chimera" and "Large Chimera."
I disagree.
Those names are fine play-test names, but they are terribly uninteresting.

"Nimble" is flavorful and implies the flexibility of the card
"Majestic" is at least an interesting word, even if it doesn't describe the abilities.
"Raging" is also an appealing name, and implies that it is an attack.

There are maybe better names, but small/medium/large and bland.

---

I'm really underwhelmed by Majestic Chimera.  You say a "fat wishing well", but wishing well isn't great, and this doesn't even guarantee the draw that wishing well always grants you.

If it was +card, +action, name a card, reveal 2, it WOULD be a buff wishing well, and there would be major improvements:
1) after you draw the first card, you have more knowledge about what's remaining in your deck
2) revealing 2 cards means you are far more likely to hit what you wanted
3) if you changed it to leave on top rather than discard, like wishing well, and you completely whiffed, then a second majestic chimera would draw the top card, and at least the next card as well, since you would know what it is. self synergy!

The opportunity cost to get these is VERY high. I think you can push them harder.  Nimble chimera could be "pick 3", possibly with a "no option more than twice" rider. or it could come with a +action and a pick 2.

Also, it would be nice if they more synergistic as a group, for instance, wisp finds imps.  What if the majestic chimera found what you called AND any chimeras that it found? 

To push the raging chimera, you might make it cost less, or keep the "i get to make a choice" theme, and allow you to chose the attack, and not even make people reveal their hands.

---

As an alternative to pushing the chimeras, you could lower the opportunity cost. 
Here are two ways:
1) remove the hyper flavorful potion cost from meld, make it cost ~4$
2) give the meld forum's "when you buy this, +buy" ability, to make it less painful when you get a 3rd round draw of potion and 4 coppers. You might need to make the meld cost something like 1$P, to keep it from being stupid.

I really like that the meld can trash your potion for value when you are done with it.  there could be additional synergy if the cost or abilities of meld were modified to allow you to trash a different meld into a chimera.  the easy way to do this is to replace the potion cost.
Alternatively, there could be a chimera that had a potion in its cost. This would also create inter-alchemy synergies.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 12:14:59 pm by weesh »
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