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Gazbag

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The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« on: January 08, 2018, 05:11:36 pm »
+31

The Best - Cards (Bottom half)

#45 =0 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 5% ▲0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 6.03% / Median: 2.27% ▼0.33pp / Standard Deviation: 12.42%


Another year and yet again Duchess is at the bottom of the list. What is there to say at this point? Occasionally youíll pick one up on a 5/2 and in sloggy games theyíre nice to get for free with Duchies, but even in these cases itís marginal at best.
#44 ▼2 Beggar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 9.33% ▼9.17pp / Unweighted Average: 9.55% / Median: 6.82% ▼6.38pp / Standard Deviation: 8.87%

Beggar is down a couple of places from last year and has the second lowest deviation.
Gaining 3 Coppers to hand is a very situational ability, all that junking will severely harm the average deck. Beggar is useful sometimes though, Copper isnít a bad card in your deck when youíre aiming to hit $4 or $5 consistently for alt-vp cards Ė Gardens is the best example of this because of how much Beggar bloats your deck but itís also fine for Dukes and Silk Roads. Another notable alt-vp combo is Beggar/Triumph, a play of Beggar gives a 4 victory token Triumph. Beggar can also have use in an engine gaining Copper to use as fodder for certain trash for benefit cards such as Altar, or to trash to Mercenary or Bats. The final use for Beggar is to gain one very late in the game with the goal of playing it once as terminal +$3 and to end the game before those Coppers have chance to enter your draw pile, this is a very situation thing that is only viable when the stars align though.
#43 ▼2 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 12.3% ▼6.9pp / Unweighted Average: 13.65% / Median: 9.09% ▼6.71pp / Standard Deviation: 11.87%

Embargo lost 6.9 percentage points and is down 2 places. It would be 1 place higher in unweighted rankings.
Embargo is very similar to Duchess as a terminal Silver with a marginal extra ability, Embargo is a one-shot though so it can be used as an early economy boost that doesnít get in the way later. The best case for Embargo is probably opening it on a 5/2 and getting the token on the key $5 card before your opponent can buy one, but that only really happens if youíre 1st player and draw Embargo turn 3. Another thing that can be fairly effective is piling some Embargo tokens on Duchies when you have a points lead to make it more difficult for your opponent to catch up, although this can backfire if your opponentís deck is stronger and can overtake you on Provinces so you have to be careful. It can also be interesting in games with Potion cards, but Iíve found that the strong Potion cards are good enough to still be worth going for.
#42 ▲2 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.04% ▼0.06pp / Unweighted Average: 12.95% / Median: 9.09% ▼0.31pp  / Standard Deviation: 12.42%

Pearl Diver has gained 2 places.
Pearl Diver is the 2nd Seaside card in the bottom 5 and marks a change from weak or situational terminals to inoffensive but low impact cantrips. That is to say, Pearl Diver wonít make your deck worse, but it wonít make it much better either. Occasionally there will be a synergy with Pearl Diver that makes it useful such as Peddler or Adventures tokens, but sometimes thereíll be something that makes Pearl Divers worse, such as Militia type attacks or dead terminal draw.
#41 ▲2 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 14.03% ▼2.27pp / Unweighted Average: 17.64% / Median: 13.64% ▼2.16pp / Standard Deviation: 14.92%

Herbalist is 1 place higher in the unweighted ranking and is 2 places higher than last year.
Herbalist is an awkward card, it has some effects which give it nifty utility but donít gel together particularly well. Decks that are interested in topdecking treasure are usually playing just 1 terminal action per turn and Herbalist doesnít really pull its weight there being a terminal Copper with +1 Buy. Engine decks will resort to Herbablist as a bottom of the barrel +1 Buy card, but then engine decks arenít interested in topdecking treasures so thereís a bit of a clash there. The exceptions to this are topdecking Potion to keep an Alchemist stack going and topdecking Crowns in an engine.
#40 Tax ▼1 (Empires) Weighted Average: 14.89% ▼10.71pp / Unweighted Average: 13.76%  / Median: 6.82% ▼11.58pp / Standard Deviation: 14.11%

Tax lost 10.71 percentage points and dropped 1 place. It is also the worst Event on this list.
Tax just isnít a great rate, youíre effectively spending $2 and 1 buy to give your opponent the option of taking 2 Debt. In games where you get some spare buys and have $2 left over you buy it, but then your opponent is likely to have a spare $2 so this rarely does much. The setup part is most impactful thing really.
#39 ▲1 Quest (Adventures) Weighted Average: 16.24% ▼9.61pp / Unweighted Average: 18.13% / Median: 11.36% ▼12.34pp / Standard Deviation: 14.82%

Quest basically just provides some alternate prices to buy Gold, this makes it fairly situational as Gold has to be something that you want to add to your deck and the conditions on Quest have to be achievable. This is more just a situational thing to do when the opportunity presents itself rather then something to base your strategy around. Opening with 2 terminal attacks can be made more enticing by the presence of Quest however, as you can discard one for a Gold if they collide. It is not advised to buy Curses just with the hopes of triggering Quests. Discarding 6 cards can be something to play towards to get an early Gold, but after the first couple of shuffles a 6 card hand should be able to afford to just buy a Gold. Tunnel is interesting with Quest as you can choose to discard, even with fewer than 6 cards in hand. This can be used to easily discard Tunnels so can be good occasionally.
#38 ▼2 Poor House (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 24.06% ▲8.14pp / Unweighted Average: 28.36% / Median: 18.18% ▼8.12pp / Standard Deviation: 21.69%

Poor House is the lowest rated $1 on the list. It has dropped 2 places since last year.
Poorhouse is another situational terminal. It basically guarantees that you hit at least $4, which isnít particularly useful given that Silver is always available and performs a similar function. The case where Poor House shines is in treasureless decks where it is terminal +$4 which can be nice payload, especially considering Poor Houseís very cheap price point. Beware Remake and Upgrade on a Poor House board.
#37 =0 Faithful Hound (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 27.74%  / Unweighted Average: 28.5% / Median: 25%  / Standard Deviation: 13.26%

Faithful Hound is the first Nocturne card on the list.
Iím sure the first comparison most people made when they first saw Faithful Hound was to Moat, given that they share the same cost, type and on-play effect. In fact the only differences are the name and the reaction effect. Faithful Hound is about as weak as terminal draw gets, giving a net +1 card. It is still viable draw for an engine sometimes, especially when itís easy to pick up cheap components quickly and there is a surplus of + actions. Be careful trying to build an engine with Faithful Hound as the draw with villages like Festival or Squire that reduce handsize, Faithful Hound will only bring you back up to 5 cards in hand so there will be no net handsize increase. The most interesting part of Faithful Hound seems to be the reaction, which can be very nice in combination with certain discard for benefit cards. The strongest of these is perhaps Artificer, as Artificers can be used to easily gain Faithful Hounds and then the Hounds will start to effectively give you ďfreeĒ cards in hand to discard to Artificers. Dungeon is another nice one as the Hounds will be in hand at the start of your turn, ready to discard to a duration Dungeon.
#36 ▲1 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 30.92% ▲4.92pp / Unweighted Average: 29.13% / Median: 22.73% ▼3.57pp / Standard Deviation: 17.87%

Moat has gained one rank since last year.
I already talked about Moatís on-play effect for Faithful Hound, so I wonít repeat myself. In a 2 player game buying Moat solely in an attempt to block attacks is rarely worth doing, you wonít always draw a Moat in your starting hand and if you donít want the terminal +2 cards then adding one to your deck is almost like attacking yourself. In cases where youíre choosing between Moat and another terminal +2 cards as your draw, such as Oracle, the reaction on Moat can certainly be enough to make Moat the better option if there are attacks that are worth blocking present. Save  and Scheme are the two cards that let you pick up a single Moat and block attacks easily Ė this can be enough to make you skip attacks entirely.
#35 ▲1 Vagrant (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 31.23% ▲0.03pp / Unweighted Average: 30.03% / Median: 25% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.63%

Vagrant has gained one rank since last year and is the 3rd Dark Ages card on this list.
Vagrant is very similar to Pearl Diver, but the effect of potentially drawing junk cards is much better than Pearl Diverís deck reordering. Vagrant shouldnít really be seen as a draw card, it just helps your deck stay consistent when under attack from Cursers or Looters and once you start buying victories. Vagrant becomes more interesting with Action-Victory and Treasure-Victory type cards, although you still have to have them be the 2nd card down on your deck to allow Vagrant to draw them so I wouldnít rely on that. The most useful of these is probably Mill, if you draw your deck you can discard two victories to Mill and then draw them back with Vagrant.
#34 =0 Druid (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 31.57% / Unweighted Average: 32.9% / Median: 29.55% / Standard Deviation: 14.75%

Druid is the second Nocturne card on the list.
Druid is a hard one to rank as its power and abilities vary wildly from game to game, depending on what Boons are set aside. Druid always gives +1 Buy, meaning it will have a similar level of utility as Herbalist at the very least. There are a few Boons which stand out as key Boons to look out for for Druid: Fields Gift, Iíd say this is the most generically strong Boon Druid can get making it very close to Candlestick Maker. Flameís Gift, trashing is one of the strongest effects in Dominion, although Druid with Flameís Gift is very weak as far as trashing goes Ė on a similar level to Trade Route, which is often described as one of the weakest trashers in the game. Swampís Gift, amassing Will-Oí-Wisps with Druid can add a reasonable amount of draw to a deck. Earthís Gift, gaining is very strong if the right components are available.
#33 ▼1 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 33.13% ▼4.27pp / Unweighted Average: 38.51% / Median: 36.36% ▲2.16pp / Standard Deviation: 21.41%

Cellar lost one rank from last year.
Cellar is a decent little sifter, it can be nice to pick one up early for the cycling when sifting past Estates can somewhat make up for the reduced handsize. The reduced handsize is the main problem of Cellar and means you donít want to get too many of them, I usually would pick one up with a spare buy but after the first I might just take nothing instead until later in the game. Cellar appreciates draw much more than other similar cards like Warehouse because you have to discard before you draw with Cellar.
#32 ▲1 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 34.48% ▼2.42pp / Unweighted Average: 36.44% / Median: 34.09% ▼2.71pp / Standard Deviation: 17.53%

Haven has gained 1 rank this year.
Havens can smooth out your early draws and help you use your money efficiently and hit key price points, in a similar way to Coin tokens. Remember to watch out for shuffles in Haven games as setting aside an Estate that will miss the shuffle is quite nice. You can even use a pair of Havens in a deck drawing engine to keep a Province set aside, effectively trashing it from your deck without losing the points. Not really a card you build around but it is useful to pick some up and they rarely hurt your deck.
#31 ▼3 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 35.62% ▼8.18pp / Unweighted Average: 36.95% / Median: 34.09% ▼10.61pp / Standard Deviation: 17.62%

Pawn is 3 ranks lower this year. Pawn is a useful little card, you can always choose +1 Card +1 Action, it never hurts to have too much. +1 Card + $1 can be okay early in the game when you have a low action density or if you have spare + Actions, although the most important thing about Pawn is that it provides a source of non-terminal +buy. It isnít a power card, but it has plenty of flexibility and utility and never really gets in the way.
#30 ▼2 Settlers (Empires) Weighted Average: 38.26% ▼1.74pp/ Unweighted Average: 38.68% / Median: 34.09% ▼2.71pp / Standard Deviation: 19.63%

Settlers is down 2 places from last year.
Another one of the cantrips that you pick up with spare buy, if you pick up a Copper with this then itís similar to a Peddler, which is certainly great for a $2, it is however fairly unreliable as you need Coppers in your discard pile to make it work and itís to keep in mind that unlike Peddlers, Settlers donít actually add any +$ to your deck. Settlers can be good alongside cards like Cellar and Warehouse, you discard Coppers with those and then pick them back up with Settlers. It is important to note that there are only 5 Settlers and the bottom 5 cards of its pile are Bustling Village, some games this wonít matter but sometimes you might want to try and empty the Settlers quickly and use Bustling Village. This can be risky as if youíve put resources into picking up the Settlers your opponentís deck might be in a better position to buy and use the Bustling Villages, so be careful.
#29 =0 Tracker (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 39.84% / Unweighted Average: 40.68% / Median: 38.64% / Standard Deviation: 21.46%

The 3rd Nocturne card on the list. Tracker uses Boons in a more conventional way than Druid, taking a random Boon from the Boon deck. Because of this, unlike Druid you shouldnít buy Tracker in the hopes of using any particular Boon, instead you should buy it if you think the topdecking ability will be useful and you can handle the terminal action in your deck. Tracker can be a nice deck accelerator, topdecking freshly gained cards so you donít have to wait for them to be shuffled to see them. Itís shortcomings are that it is a terminal Copper, which is weak and that the Boons are unreliable. Also remember that Pouch comes with Tracker, so you can potentially open with 2 $2 costs on your $4 opening hand or even a $2 and a $3 on a 5/2 opening.
#28 =0 Patrician (Empires) Weighted Average: 40.71%▲0.81pp / Unweighted Average: 40.89% / Median: 34.09% ▼5.41pp / Standard Deviation: 19.43%

Patrician is on the same rank as last year. It is one place higher in the unweighted ranking.
Patrician is like a Vagrant that draws good cards instead of bad cards. $5 costs are generally the most important cards in any given game of Dominion so it is not uncommon for your deck to be full of $5ís, in which case Patricians are great to pick up with spare buys and youíll even go out of your way to win the Patrician split sometimes. Patrician even draws Duchies and Provinces late in the game and so helps out like Vagrant there too. Like Settlers Patrician is the top card of a split pile and having a few Patricians in your deck will make reaching 5 actions in play for Emporium much easier.
#27 ▲2 Scouting Party (Adventures) Weighted Average: 44.95% ▲4.95pp / Unweighted Average: 40.85% / Median: 39.47% ▼0.03pp / Standard Deviation: 18.47%

Scouting Party is 2 ranks higher than last year. Although it is 1 rank lower in the unweighted ranking. Scouting Party is a really nice deck accelerator and sifter. In the early game the cycling is substantial and it can skip past Estates and Coppers and late game it can sift past Provinces and help line up cards for consistency. It doesnít even cost a buy and so is easier to pick up than cards like Pearl Diver. Not something to build a strategy around (with the exception of perhaps Tunnel) but a very nice thing to get when you have the chance.
#26 =0 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 46.76% ▲1.06pp / Unweighted Average: 47.89% / Median: 47.73% ▼2.27pp / Standard Deviation: 19.94%

Native Village is on the same rank as last time. It is 1 rank higher in the unweighted list.
Native Village is a complicated card. As a village in a deck drawing engine it isnít the best as it draws fewer cards than a standard village. Although setting aside cards and calling them in for a bigger turn can be useful to hit high price points when building the engine. One important thing to point out is that the more Native Villages you use to pick up cards from the mat, the less draw your Native Villages are providing. To highlight this, if you have 4 Native Villages and use 3 to set aside and 1 to pick up then you have effectives drawn 3 cards, but if you were to alternate setting aside and picking up you would only draw 2 cards. Native Village can be used as a pseudo-trasher  with certain cards such as Apothecary which tends to leave victories on top of your deck or with discard for benefit like Vault once youíre drawing your deck.
#25 =0 Guardian (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 46.99% / Unweighted Average: 46.49% / Median: 45.45% / Standard Deviation: 22.12%

Another new card, it is 1 rank lower in the unweighted list; where Faithful Hound is the new Moat, Guardian is the new Lighthouse. Guardian is even more similar to Lighthouse really, it basically exchanges + $1 when you play it for being gained to hand and being unable to be drawn dead. A much more reliable way of blocking attacks than Moat, Guardianís strength comes from being immediately playable when you gain it, this makes Guardian shine in less reliable decks where you can keep buying Guardians to keep up your defence, compared to Lighthouse which is better when you can reliably play 1 per turn. Another trick to Guardian is that buying it on the first turn gives you + $1 on turn 2, which can let you open with a $5 cost on a 3/4 opening.
#24 =0 Pixie (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 47.15% / Unweighted Average: 48.85% / Median: 47.73% / Standard Deviation: 19.52%

The 2nd highest ranked Nocturne card and still in the bottom half. Pixie is another card that you can pick up with a spare buy and itíll do something good for you, although exactly what itíll do youíll have to see. From what Iíve seen of people playing Pixie Iíd advise people to cash them in more often than they do, I have routinely seen people have 2-3 Pixies in there deck at the end of the game which have done basically nothing. One other thing to note is that so long as there are Pixies left in the pile there isnít much reason to not take the Forestís Gift as it gives +$2 +2 Buys so you can always just buy back the Pixie with that. Pixie comes with the Goat Heirloom, which doesnít really have much of an effect on how to evaluate Pixie itself.
#23 ▼3 Advance (Empires) Weighted Average: 48.32% ▼8.48pp / Unweighted Average: 49.72% / Median: 50% ▼2.6pp / Standard Deviation: 22.47%

Advance is a big loser being 3 ranks lower than last year. 
The most common use for Advance is upgrading a trasher once your deck is trashed down and you no longer have use for it. In a game with a lot of +buy you can potentially buy a bunch of cheap actions and then use Advance to turn them all into more useful cards, although you might need a lot of draw as well to pull this off and just buying the useful cards directly might just be better. Fortress is probably the best thing to do with Advance, basically just turning all of your buys into Actions costing up to $6. Also watch out for Shelters games, Advancing that Necropolis on turn 1 or 2 is often amazing.

Thanks to Qvist for making this possible and sorry for all the mistakes I probably made.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:12:57 pm by Gazbag »
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weesh

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 05:50:22 pm »
+1

It is surprising that scouting party is so low on a power-level scale.
I've found it to be extraordinarily useful and flexible, often preventing waste, and while it doesn't NEED synergies, it often has them.

(I'm not going to embarrass myself by listing the cards i'd put lower)

I've been vetoing it recently, but only because it can add a lot of time to matches.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 05:54:19 pm by weesh »
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benedettosoxfan

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 05:54:16 pm »
+3

Ah I've been so excited to make a contribution to these lists. A big thank you to Qvist and everyone responsible in the compilation and delivery of these rankings! Some initial opinions of mine to kick off the banter:

Poor house is waaaaaaaaay better than that. Shouldn't be anywhere near the bottom 10 in my opinion. In engine decks where you can trash all your starting copper, which are not uncommon, poor house provides excellent payload. Sure it's terminal, but $4 from a card that's borderline free? I've had many many games where poorhouse was the main attraction of my strategy. The only ranking I truly don't understand in this first batch.

I think tracker is sneaky good. The top decking ability is the best part about it. The comparisons to royal seal are obvious, but the fact that you activate this ability during your action phase opens up a new world of possibilities. Any gainer becomes much more attractive, and the boon itself (especially the Earths gift or the gold gainer) can really come in handy.

I also personally feel that vagrant is better than patrician, but that's just me.

Scouting Party is also really really useful and possibly underrated.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 06:37:40 pm »
+1

Yay, the rankings have begun!

So far the biggest change from last year is Advance, which went down 4 ranks.  I think this was deserved.  Without support, trashing an action is just too expensive, and if you don't have extra buys you are just wasting your leftover money.

I think Scouting Party and Pixie deserve to be much higher.  Last year, people were arguing Encampment was amazing even when used as a one-shot, but Pixie is more versatile than that.  In games without +Buy, Pixie's gains can be essential to victory.

I don't think Faithful Hound is far off, but it's odd to me that it's below Moat.  Faithful Hound is often skippable, but with the right synergy, the reaction becomes the most powerful draw in the kingdom.  That's more than I can say about Moat's reaction.

For the upper half, I'm curious how Page/Peasant/Chapel will be ordered.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:06:36 pm by trivialknot »
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JW

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 07:07:02 pm »
0

You should reserve one or more posts after the first post in card list threads so that when you post the remaining cards, they appear sequentially. Then you can update the thread title (by editing the first post) to say something like "The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, all".
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Gazbag

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 07:34:11 pm »
+1

You should reserve one or more posts after the first post in card list threads so that when you post the remaining cards, they appear sequentially. Then you can update the thread title (by editing the first post) to say something like "The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, all".

Chris is me is doing the other half. I assumed they'd make a new topic.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 08:08:01 pm »
0

I second the notion that Poor House is underrated here. In a game where trashing is so prized, Poor House vaults you to Province so quickly for so cheap, without having to worry about how to afford economy cards like Gold or even Silver after trashing aggressively.

Much worse when villages are scarce, true.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 09:55:43 pm »
+3

You should reserve one or more posts after the first post in card list threads so that when you post the remaining cards, they appear sequentially. Then you can update the thread title (by editing the first post) to say something like "The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, all".

Chris is me is doing the other half. I assumed they'd make a new topic.

I will be. The style is a bit different, and we would basically have to post simultaneously for the reserved post thing to work with multiple users. Also I always hate when the discussion is pages away from the content, though it does make sense in the old Qvist context.

My post should go up around this time tomorrow or a little before. Unless I get unbearably bored at work in the afternoon, at which point Iíll push the limits of cell phone copy and paste.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 11:21:44 pm »
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Duchess isn't designed to be gained by using your buy and 2$.  You should put the Ruins on the list if Duchess is on the list.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 11:53:02 pm »
0

Duchess isn't designed to be gained by using your buy and 2$.  You should put the Ruins on the list if Duchess is on the list.

More than half of the time when I gain Duchess, I buy it with my buy and $2.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 03:05:16 am »
+4

Faithful Hound's placement is fairly ridiculous. In games where it is good, it is game-definingly good in a way the none of the other cards on this list can ever be. The thing I believe people don't fully understand is that the +2 cards is very much secondary, and in most Faithful Hound games you will rarely end up playing them but rather, say, discard 8 Hounds to Artificer each turn. Compare to Moat, where the card draw is usually the main function. It should be obvious that Hound is much stronger than that.

Another placement that seems weird is Guardian. That card is basically a delayed Copper unless there are nasty attacks, so how is it so good? Clearly it's a better defense than, say, Moat, but that comes at a cost of junking yourself, so you're kind of attacking yourself in order to not be attacked. Moat can at least work in some decks, Guardian is only ever junk that protects you.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 06:42:48 am »
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Faithful Hound's placement is fairly ridiculous. In games where it is good, it is game-definingly good in a way the none of the other cards on this list can ever be. The thing I believe people don't fully understand is that the +2 cards is very much secondary, and in most Faithful Hound games you will rarely end up playing them but rather, say, discard 8 Hounds to Artificer each turn. Compare to Moat, where the card draw is usually the main function. It should be obvious that Hound is much stronger than that.

Another placement that seems weird is Guardian. That card is basically a delayed Copper unless there are nasty attacks, so how is it so good? Clearly it's a better defense than, say, Moat, but that comes at a cost of junking yourself, so you're kind of attacking yourself in order to not be attacked. Moat can at least work in some decks, Guardian is only ever junk that protects you.

Couldnít the same be said about Lighthouse? Youíre basically trading the first turn Copper in exchange for the ability to dead draw it and to buy it into your hand when you miss. The latter is a huge deal. Itís still worse than Lighthouse, but itís not an unreasonable card on boards with devastating attacks. Itís only junk every other turn at least...
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 06:48:40 am »
0

Faithful Hound's placement is fairly ridiculous. In games where it is good, it is game-definingly good in a way the none of the other cards on this list can ever be. The thing I believe people don't fully understand is that the +2 cards is very much secondary, and in most Faithful Hound games you will rarely end up playing them but rather, say, discard 8 Hounds to Artificer each turn. Compare to Moat, where the card draw is usually the main function. It should be obvious that Hound is much stronger than that.

Another placement that seems weird is Guardian. That card is basically a delayed Copper unless there are nasty attacks, so how is it so good? Clearly it's a better defense than, say, Moat, but that comes at a cost of junking yourself, so you're kind of attacking yourself in order to not be attacked. Moat can at least work in some decks, Guardian is only ever junk that protects you.

Couldnít the same be said about Lighthouse? Youíre basically trading the first turn Copper in exchange for the ability to dead draw it and to buy it into your hand when you miss. The latter is a huge deal. Itís still worse than Lighthouse, but itís not an unreasonable card on boards with devastating attacks. Itís only junk every other turn at least...
Well, Lighthouse at least provides +2$ total per play, so it might actually help your overall economy. It can be used for economy in some cases like draw-to-X-engines, so it at least has a niche in some non-attack kingdoms.

Obviously Guardian is a card you want to get against strong attacks, and I'm not saying it's completely useless, just that the placement seems a bit high.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 06:59:44 am »
+1

Other things of note when comparing this to my list...

Tax is still overrated. It does next to nothing. I had it second-to-last.
Pearl Diver has the last spot for me because it's just never really doing anything. Stuff like Beggar at least has strong combos, and Duchess can occasionally be a pickup at 5/2 for early economy.
Where is Courtyard? It should be on this list. It's barely, if at all, better than Moat.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 07:03:09 am »
+1

Tax is underrated, it should be above Faithful Hound at least.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 08:31:01 am »
+1

Another placement that seems weird is Guardian. That card is basically a delayed Copper unless there are nasty attacks, so how is it so good?

Nasty attacks are often the best cards in the Kingdom.
Also, a delayed copper is better than a copper.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2018, 09:09:00 am »
+3

Faithful Hound's placement is fairly ridiculous. In games where it is good, it is game-definingly good in a way the none of the other cards on this list can ever be. The thing I believe people don't fully understand is that the +2 cards is very much secondary, and in most Faithful Hound games you will rarely end up playing them but rather, say, discard 8 Hounds to Artificer each turn. Compare to Moat, where the card draw is usually the main function. It should be obvious that Hound is much stronger than that.

Another placement that seems weird is Guardian. That card is basically a delayed Copper unless there are nasty attacks, so how is it so good? Clearly it's a better defense than, say, Moat, but that comes at a cost of junking yourself, so you're kind of attacking yourself in order to not be attacked. Moat can at least work in some decks, Guardian is only ever junk that protects you.

Hey, you're talking about the two cards that that I think are most misranked!

I agree that Faithful Hound is underrated.  In my experience, a random board with Faithful Hound is more likely than not to present some synergy.  But I'll go further and suggest that Moat is also a little underranked.  +2 cards is hardly the most exciting draw ever, but sometimes it's all you need to make an engine.  Combine Moat/Hound with good trashing and plentiful actions and you've got a solid cheap draw component.

Here's an example game where Moat makes the engine possible.  Skip to 48:50 for the relevant game.


Given that Moat and Hound can do that, what are they doing below a do-nothing card like Settlers?

I completely disagree about Guardian; I think it's the most underranked card!  Most attacks are really painful.  Discard down to 3 cards?  No, I'd rather have one dead card in the deck (alternating Guardians) than start with two fewer cards.  Gain a Curse?  No, I'd rather have a single dead card that provides a little economy than multiple that lose VP.  And then there are games with absolutely brutal attacks like a Torturer stack, Knights onslaught, or an Ambassador barrage where Guardian is essential.  The opportunity cost of Guardian is so low, that I almost always pick up at least a couple in games where my opponent has an attack.  And it's so tactical!  You can wait until after your opponent buys an attack to buy and play a Guardian.  If you aren't drawing your deck, you can use your knowledge about your opponent's shuffles to determine whether you should buy another Guardian.  The gain-to-hand effect is also valuable near the end of sloppy games; Guardian works kind of like saving a Copper in these cases (when you don't expect to trigger another shuffle).  So far, I've been impressed with Guardian; it plays better than it looks.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 09:09:20 am »
+2

Weird that Pawn has dropped three places. It's definitely too low now.

But I didn't vote so maybe I shouldn't complain.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2018, 09:23:35 am »
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Also, a delayed copper is better than a copper.
What? No. Why?
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 09:25:48 am »
+1

Poor House should get a similar nod as a complimentary to Artificer as Faithful Hound gets. It can easily be picked up by dropping an Estate to Artificer, and later in the game Artificer could use all the Copper to power up the Poor Houses while baking himself a card, which makes Poor House + Artificer a guaranteed $5 buy plus >=$4 gain.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:30:40 am by ipofanes »
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 09:37:26 am »
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I completely disagree about Guardian; I think it's the most underranked card!  Most attacks are really painful.  Discard down to 3 cards?  No, I'd rather have one dead card in the deck (alternating Guardians) than start with two fewer cards.  Gain a Curse?  No, I'd rather have a single dead card that provides a little economy than multiple that lose VP.  And then there are games with absolutely brutal attacks like a Torturer stack, Knights onslaught, or an Ambassador barrage where Guardian is essential.  The opportunity cost of Guardian is so low, that I almost always pick up at least a couple in games where my opponent has an attack.  And it's so tactical!  You can wait until after your opponent buys an attack to buy and play a Guardian.  If you aren't drawing your deck, you can use your knowledge about your opponent's shuffles to determine whether you should buy another Guardian.  The gain-to-hand effect is also valuable near the end of sloppy games; Guardian works kind of like saving a Copper in these cases (when you don't expect to trigger another shuffle).  So far, I've been impressed with Guardian; it plays better than it looks.
That is all good and well, but all in all there are around 20 strong attacks in all of Dominion. There are over 300 different kingdom piles. The chance of such an attack appearing with Guardian is roughly 47%. So in over half of all kingdoms with it, Guardian will be a complete dud.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2018, 10:58:42 am »
0

Also, a delayed copper is better than a copper.
What? No. Why?
A delayed copper skips shuffles more often.  Coppers are bad, so having them skip shuffles is good.  In contrast, a delayed gold (Raider) is worse than gold, and a delayed silver (Lighthouse) is usually worse than silver.

It's also worth noting that since you get $1 the turn after you buy Guardian, it's really more like an advanced copper than a delayed copper.  Considering any particular Guardian in your deck, you've gotten at least as much $ from it as the number of times you've drawn it.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 11:20:11 am »
+3

Also, a delayed copper is better than a copper.
What? No. Why?
A delayed copper skips shuffles more often.  Coppers are bad, so having them skip shuffles is good.  In contrast, a delayed gold (Raider) is worse than gold, and a delayed silver (Lighthouse) is usually worse than silver.

It's also worth noting that since you get $1 the turn after you buy Guardian, it's really more like an advanced copper than a delayed copper.  Considering any particular Guardian in your deck, you've gotten at least as much $ from it as the number of times you've drawn it.

This is working off unstated assumptions that you desire Gold in your deck but don't desire Copper.

More simply, we can say that a delayed duration version of any card you don't want is better than the non-duration version of it. So, if you consider duration Copper better than Copper, then don't get the Copper at all, duration of otherwise. Duration Copper is worse than Copper if you actually want the Copper for spending purposes (as opposed to like Fairgrounds or Keep or something).

However Guardian is gained to hand, so maybe you do want to gain it even if there are no attacks on the board for that "advanced" Copper effect. It acts like a sort of Cursed Gold lite or a Borrow variant in such cases given its lasting effect on your deck.

As far as defense goes, Guardian is clearly comparable to Lighthouse considering you can alternate between playing two of them for full protection against attacks. Moat doesn't give you that kind of security.
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 05:13:39 pm »
0

"Haven rarely hurts your deck" LIES  >:(
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Re: The Dominion Card Lists 2017 Edition: $0-$2 cards, bottom half
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 05:30:31 pm »
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Tracker seems underrated.
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