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Author Topic: The more I read the worse I get?  (Read 3715 times)

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crj

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2018, 03:22:14 pm »
+1

I'm not missing the point, the point is just not relevant to what I'm saying.
What you're saying having no relevance to the point is missing the point!
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Awaclus

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2018, 08:05:03 pm »
0

I'm not missing the point, the point is just not relevant to what I'm saying.
What you're saying having no relevance to the point is missing the point!

It's not. I get his point. There's just no reason to talk about his point in the context of how strong Loan is.
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navical

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2018, 08:10:41 pm »
+14

You shouldn't be discussing the strength of Loan in this thread at all.
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crj

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2018, 08:59:43 pm »
+1

It's not. I get his point. There's just no reason to talk about his point in the context of how strong Loan is.
Or, to put it another way, his point is not the point.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2018, 01:08:41 pm »
+7

wasnít gonna post this because it keeps dragging this thread in the mud but I shared it with a few people who agreed with the sentiment so here it is. Iíll drop it entirely if itís not well received.

Iím kind of sick of my responses to this too, thatís why I stopped posting in this thread (and believe it or not Iíve been trying to back off in general). But I do sort of want to bring this up while weíre all here having meta commentary about how much this sucks and weíre all agreeing with upvotes, before we all move on and do nothing about it. Whatís the right thing to do about this toxic, draining behavior weíre all sick of?

The response thatís most popular, and usually gets trotted out when this is brought up, is to just ignore it. This is great advice for real world scenarios in public spaces, with people you wonít really interact with again - get through it, and then you can move on and not deal with it anymore. But in a small community of forum regulars, mixed in with new posters, all ignoring this does is tacitly accept it. The new posters that filter in will inevitably not know the unwritten rule of ďliterally everyone on the forum pretend the bad guy doesnít exist and maybe heíll stopĒ, and it takes just one person (or even nobody at all?) to provide enough response for the behavior to continue. The silence is also interpreted as acceptance, not rejection - nobody is objecting to the content, therefore itís fine. It teaches other posters they can post in that manner, because they donít see anyone objecting to that, and it teaches other posters that this is the kind of content you should expect.

The response Iíve been trying, which Iím now trying to stop doing because it also sucks, is to just call it out. ďHey, this is what youíre doing, you know youíre doing this, we know you arenít posting in good honest faith because youíve literally said so on multiple occasions, we all are tiredĒ. This communicates a lack of acceptance for the behavior, which in some ways is better, but often it is escalatory and inflammatory. It creates an uncivil attitude in the forum, which is arguably worse to normalize than just being an obnoxious and persistent troll. Itís pretty clear that this sort of posting isnít deterred by social pressure at all, so applying it just makes the experience less pleasant for everyone else. So that doesnít work either.

So I guess what Iím asking is... does anybody have any ideas? Do we really just have to live with this in any given thread? Is there always just gonna be a chance that Awaclus comes in to make a side point, then argues it to death, and then has the gall to assert that other people in the thread are going off-topic from his already off-topic rant? Either we want this to continue, or we donít - and if we do, sure, fine, status quo it is. But like, I feel like we largely donít, but it doesnít seem like thereís anything we can do about it. We could discuss things somewhere else? Maybe we could push to have others moderate away this trolling? Iím just stumped, but its really unpleasant to deal with, and I donít know how to handle it.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2018, 02:20:27 pm »
0

Quote from: greybirdofprey
So I guess what Iím asking is... does anybody have any ideas? Do we really just have to live with this in any given thread? Is there always just gonna be a chance that Awaclus comes in to make a side point, then argues it to death, and then has the gall to assert that other people in the thread are going off-topic from his already off-topic rant? Either we want this to continue, or we donít - and if we do, sure, fine, status quo it is. But like, I feel like we largely donít, but it doesnít seem like thereís anything we can do about it. We could discuss things somewhere else? Maybe we could push to have others moderate away this trolling? Iím just stumped, but its really unpleasant to deal with, and I donít know how to handle it.

In Zen Buddhism, you can use 'mu' to un-say something or to un-ask a question.
We could agree that 'mu' could basically mean 'you are being toxic and you should stop doing that so I am not going to grace you with any other reply to this until you stop'.

Mu.
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theory

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2018, 02:57:13 pm »
+7

Chris, I wouldn't agree with the sentiment that a 0 upvote un-responded post signals acceptance.  I think you should give readers some credit.  As someone who doesn't closely follow the forum it was pretty clear to me that the Loan fork of the thread was both an irrelevant nitpick and also not particularly well-received.

Awaclus, it also seems clear that your Loan opinion has both been made clear and also not accepted by the majority.  So continuing to make it in a thread that obviously was never about Loan doesn't really do anything as far as making your opinion more accepted.

That being said, it seems pretty clear to me that this particular debate is best served by a titanic grudge match under mutually-agreed-upon parameters, with the stakes being either a temp ban, or agreeing to add to every post "I was wrong about Loan" for a week.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2018, 04:25:38 pm »
+1

Decided to edit this post because it's probably only making it worse.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 04:30:58 pm by Aleimon Thimble »
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Donald X.

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2018, 05:34:23 pm »
+3

It is essential to the concept of forums that you be able to respond to the one part of a post that you want to respond to. It is essential to the concept of forums that you be able to respond to people responding to you.

It is essential to the concept of the dominionstrategy forums that you be able to talk about what you personally think the power level of a card is. It's like right in the title.

What is not essential is ranting about how you hate a particular poster for posting. It's, I'm going to call it "toxic, draining behavior." Try not doing that? Man.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2018, 05:36:31 pm »
+2

What has happened: Awaclus has been pedantic and annoying on purpose when it comes to certain opinions to the detriment of any conversation on this forum. He does not appear to be even entertaining the thought of not being correct, or of trying to not be annoying on purpose with his actions. Yeah, that's clearly going to grind some gears. And yet it's okay because unlike Adam Horton or Tristan Awaclus doesn't blow up or insult people (with the exception of calling an opinion "retarded" once).

The trouble here is there is clearly toxic behavior, but nothing is being done because it isn't extreme enough. And then if you do something about Awaclus, then suddenly that puts a target on potentially anyone for being "annoying". It's a scary precedent. And yet I am fully willing to endorse something being done.

Chris is me is absolutely right, even if he overreacts and uses inflammatory words. Something needs to be done. I don't know what, but there needs to be some sort of discussion about this.

What is not essential is ranting about how you hate a particular poster for posting. It's, I'm going to call it "toxic, draining behavior." Try not doing that? Man.

I seem to recall times where you have done the same thing. The article in question isn't "hating someone for posting", but "hating someone for what they post". Awaclus could be posting things that are not clearly designed to aggravate everybody on the planet.

I don't know, the "ignore it" strategy isn't working anymore, and this is going to keep popping up over and over, and ruin many more threads.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2018, 05:48:15 pm »
+2

It is essential to the concept of forums that you be able to respond to the one part of a post that you want to respond to. It is essential to the concept of forums that you be able to respond to people responding to you.

It is essential to the concept of the dominionstrategy forums that you be able to talk about what you personally think the power level of a card is. It's like right in the title.

What is not essential is ranting about how you hate a particular poster for posting. It's, I'm going to call it "toxic, draining behavior." Try not doing that? Man.

It's not hating a particular poster for posting. It's hating a particular poster for posting, endlessly, in a particular tiresome way.

Donald X.

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2018, 06:07:07 pm »
+5

I seem to recall times where you have done the same thing.
I dunno, but I am doing it right now! And it does suck. I could have gone on more but it would have sucked even more.

The article in question isn't "hating someone for posting", but "hating someone for what they post". Awaclus could be posting things that are not clearly designed to aggravate everybody on the planet.
I read all those Awaclus posts in this thread, they are utterly unobjectionable. I do not wish to play mafia so I am not going to quote them all and point out what they are doing. Anyone having a problem with those posts is creating their own problem, you heard it here.
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crj

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2018, 06:14:52 pm »
+4

It is essential to the concept of forums that [...]
Everything you say there seems to be from the perspective of someone who's posting. But there are also people reading the forums.

It's also essential to the concept of forums that it's reasonably easy for people to find the stuff that interests them and avoid the stuff that doesn't.

I get the impression the complaints are, at least implicitly, following the template of "X keeps posting about Y where it is only tangential to the topic in hand, and most people aren't interested in X's views on Y. X is wasting their time and should desist, but if X is determined to continue they should get a room for Y." A specific complaint might be bogus, but the template itself seems legit.

There's precedent for insisting that certain tangents get taken to a special area. Religion, sex, politics, loan...
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Seprix

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2018, 06:17:45 pm »
+2

I would laugh if Loan became a bannable topic.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2018, 06:36:56 pm »
+2

I would laugh if Loan became a bannable topic.

Okay keep that kind of talk here folk:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18138.new#new
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Donald X.

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2018, 06:54:47 pm »
0

Everything you say there seems to be from the perspective of someone who's posting. But there are also people reading the forums.
I also read forums, would you believe.

I get the impression the complaints are, at least implicitly, following the template of "X keeps posting about Y where it is only tangential to the topic in hand, and most people aren't interested in X's views on Y. X is wasting their time and should desist, but if X is determined to continue they should get a room for Y." A specific complaint might be bogus, but the template itself seems legit.
Forums are much worse when you can't talk about tangential things. They suck and then everyone abandons them for better forums. Is my experience from many years on various forums.

Also X would have left it at one post if people hadn't decided to argue the point with X here. I mean really. Everyone gets off the hook except X, huh?
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2018, 07:04:57 pm »
+4

This is definitely a topic that needs to be discussed, but couldn't it be split into a meta thread or something?
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O

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2018, 07:58:34 pm »
+8

I was thinking about writing up something on how I think many (with the main exception being those by Titandrake) Article's primary goals tend not to actually be educational content, but more of a springboard for internal F.DS debates. I think that would be an interesting topic which is relevant to the original purpose of this thread.

But thanks to the usual suspects + a surprise cameo by Donald, this thread has become a complete shitshow and I doubt splitting the thread would even save the topic at this point.

I don't want to fan the flames too hard but let me make one thing absolutely clear: The diversity of our forum participation IS suffering from the constant pedantry, the aggressive attitudes and the inconsequential debates consuming threads. I have plenty of dominion friends online and IRL who have as much when F.DS comes up. We may have high participation, but it's by an incredibly narrow set of users.

Perhaps this is why platforms such as Reddit dominate. Despite the numerous, numerous problems with the up-vote sorting system, it at least generally allows us to ignore this near-worthless content easily.

One last thing: We don't need to have either a strict, iron fist moderation policy with clear, unambiguous rules or a laissez-faire system. Theory is an amazing moderator, if too light handed for my tastes. Obviously it would be a ridiculous request for him to maintain every thread as on topic, but I trust Theory more than anyone to set some guidelines and then apply them when super necessary, or delegate it to someone else to do so
 
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2018, 09:03:56 pm »
+5

What has happened: Awaclus has been pedantic and annoying on purpose when it comes to certain opinions to the detriment of any conversation on this forum. He does not appear to be even entertaining the thought of not being correct, or of trying to not be annoying on purpose with his actions. Yeah, that's clearly going to grind some gears. And yet it's okay because unlike Adam Horton or Tristan Awaclus doesn't blow up or insult people (with the exception of calling an opinion "retarded" once).

I have not been pedantic or annoying on purpose. I have not been pedantic at all and if you find me annoying, that's your subjective opinion.

I do entertain the thought of not being correct, but you're not entitled to having me change my opinion just because you tell me I should. That's why I proposed the cage match to Titandrake, to give him an opportunity to prove that he's correct and I'm wrong.

I also think that it's absolutely not fair to put Adam and Tristan in the same category. Adam has had a few disagreements with some people, Tristan has gotten permabanned multiple times.
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Donald X.

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2018, 10:36:13 pm »
+1

But thanks to the usual suspects + a surprise cameo by Donald, this thread has become a complete shitshow and I doubt splitting the thread would even save the topic at this point.
I'm there for you.

I don't want to fan the flames too hard but let me make one thing absolutely clear: The diversity of our forum participation IS suffering from the constant pedantry, the aggressive attitudes and the inconsequential debates consuming threads. I have plenty of dominion friends online and IRL who have as much when F.DS comes up. We may have high participation, but it's by an incredibly narrow set of users.

Perhaps this is why platforms such as Reddit dominate. Despite the numerous, numerous problems with the up-vote sorting system, it at least generally allows us to ignore this near-worthless content easily.
In fact lots of Dominion traffic has moved to discord (thus, not being here), despite it not sorting posts by how approved they are, and despite the presence there of both Awaclus and Chris is me.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2018, 10:44:10 pm »
+11

The more I read this thread, the worse I get.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2018, 10:48:54 pm »
+2

In fact lots of Dominion traffic has moved to discord (thus, not being here), despite it not sorting posts by how approved they are, and despite the presence there of both Awaclus and Chris is me.
The world is just moving too fast for me. I still haven't been to Reddit and stuff is already going somewhere else? I like my comfort zone. (That comfort includes real cards with established friends, instead of playing online with people I do not have personal relationships with.)
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2018, 11:10:57 pm »
+1

In fact lots of Dominion traffic has moved to discord (thus, not being here), despite it not sorting posts by how approved they are, and despite the presence there of both Awaclus and Chris is me.

That's likely very true by the number of comments and likely very false by the net number of frequent contributors, as discord tends to filter out more people than open forums/reddit. Feel free to correct me however as I have no plans of tracking the discord.

Either way my point was not to claim that Reddit is a good platform, merely one advantage it has over here (and discord).
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2018, 11:24:00 pm »
+3

The world is just moving too fast for me. I still haven't been to Reddit and stuff is already going somewhere else? I like my comfort zone. (That comfort includes real cards with established friends, instead of playing online with people I do not have personal relationships with.)
Everyone, back to boardgamegeek. Wait: where's rec.games.deckbuilders.dominion.misc?
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2018, 11:54:32 pm »
0

You can join the Discord channel today, if you read this entire thread (poor you) and are confused!
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