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Author Topic: The more I read the worse I get?  (Read 2477 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2018, 12:36:19 am »
0

You can join the Discord channel today, if you read this entire thread (poor you) and are confused!
It's an AOL chatroom for a new age, complete with card art bots and Dominion-based emojis!

https://discord.gg/6Pveru9
But is it better to click on the link in your post or the link in your sig?
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theory

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2018, 01:05:02 am »
+1

Imagine this thread ends after post #17.  Would that be the kind of thread we want, or don't want, on this forum?
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popsofctown

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2018, 01:15:07 am »
+5

After 17?  Probably better than it not being on the forum at all.  By post nowish, maybe not better than it not being on the forum at all.

The nice thing about cutting it at 17 is that I would be tied for most upvotes, I have no other purpose for existence than that sort of thing you know.
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Titandrake

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2018, 02:00:18 am »
+2

Imagine this thread ends after post #17.  Would that be the kind of thread we want, or don't want, on this forum?

I think having the thread up to post #17 is better than not having it. I think having the entire thread up to this point is also better than not having it. Threads like this don't happen that often, and the meta-discussion is useful.
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traces Around

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2018, 05:08:26 am »
+7

This is going to be three short, sort of unrelated things from this thread all pushed together into one post, and I'm doing a card list for you all, so you can get used to hearing from me for 10 days or so.

This is my first post here outside of tournaments in over 6 months, while in the past 6 months I have posted over 1700 times in the strategy focused sections of the Dominion discord. Somehow the discord seems both more serious and more friendly, and it is probably mostly because of the attitudes here as O mentioned. Also in the strategy sections of discord and here, in the last 3 days discord has had more unique posters (and more posts, but that is format driven) - I am not alone.

The main reason discussions here are so unproductive and repetitive is that people don't give reasons or examples as evidence. Preaching bores people and they don't take anything away from it so they repeat a similar question and get preached at again. The forum should embrace what discord can't do, and that is well thought out longer posts. Getting rid of the upvote system which rewards low effort posts that people outside this forum likely get put off by would be a small step in that direction I think, and a little bit of self-moderation by posters would be the much larger one. Or going all out make a word minimum of at least 20, but really a little bit of self-moderation should be enough.

As for the original topic of this thread, articles are quite bad at teaching you how to play good Dominion. What a good article does is it establishes the author's framework for thinking about Dominion to the reader and makes some mentions of little things that might be helpful (Titandrake is quite good at this). In a huge number of low stress games (bots are kind of useful here), the reader needs to develop their own framework that isn't just "do what the articles say," otherwise they will get worse because they are going to have a bunch of conflicting messages from different authors because the authors think differently. Incorporating the little things into something they already have and is familiar to them is much easier than needing to think about each little thing independently.

LastFootnote

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2018, 09:21:46 am »
+5

Then itís settled! From now on each thread may have at most 17 posts!
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2018, 09:51:26 am »
0

Then itís settled! From now on each thread may have at most 17 posts!
And in years to come we'll have some vague recollection of why... but no-one will be able to locate these posts in which the rule was decided.
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schadd

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2018, 01:08:19 pm »
+2

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Polk5440

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2018, 03:41:45 pm »
+1

Maybe I am incompetent, but I find Discord very difficult to follow and worse, not entertaining. My usage of it has dropped significantly. These forums are far better for finding helpful tidbits or juicy knock-down, drag-out fights.
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popsofctown

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2018, 04:20:09 pm »
+3

Definitely do not remove the respect system.  I won't disagree that jokes should be upvoted less and content upvoted more.  But that would essentially be censoring a certain format of speech, because you do not like the impact the speech has or what people are saying with it, and that should be against anyone's principles.

I don't know what the answer is, but maybe aggressively forking offtrack topics are a good idea.  The large mafia subforum grew out of an "in defense of monopoly" thread, which shows that interesting things can come from sidetracks, but at the same time shows a thread can definitely dig deep into something that OP might not be interested.  Forking isn't really censoring people if it's done in an internally consistent way, and censorship should be a one-step-after-last resort, when you turn the server off, maybe you censor the powered down server a little bit, that's when it's ok.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2018, 04:30:53 pm »
+2

Definitely do not remove the respect system.  I won't disagree that jokes should be upvoted less and content upvoted more.  But that would essentially be censoring a certain format of speech, because you do not like the impact the speech has or what people are saying with it, and that should be against anyone's principles.

How would that be censoring? Anyone could still write whatever they like (as long as it doesn't violate the forum rules) with or without upvote system. The lack thereof, if anything, it would encourage people to write more quality content which is a good thing.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2018, 04:55:25 pm »
+1

please don't remove the respect system.
I use it as a gauge to understand what strategic concepts and comments are well regarded.
It's not perfect, but it is FREQUENTLY useful for that.   
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2018, 05:08:21 pm »
0

please don't remove the respect system.
I use it as a gauge to understand what strategic concepts and comments are well regarded.
It's not perfect, but it is FREQUENTLY useful for that.

Well, I've personally gotten the most upvotes for posts with terrible jokes.
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teamlyle

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2018, 05:08:31 pm »
0

please don't remove the respect system.
I use it as a gauge to understand what strategic concepts and comments are well regarded.
It's not perfect, but it is FREQUENTLY useful for that.

Very true. It also leads to people trying to make jokes to get upvotes, though, so maybe an optimal system would have 2 different kinds of upvotes, one for quality posts and another for funny posts.
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theory

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2018, 05:22:30 pm »
+2

The respect system is going nowhere.  The whole point of it is supposed to be a way to silently express approval or lack thereof.  Indeed I would have thought it would have solved the problem people had in this thread. 
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jsh357

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2018, 05:26:43 pm »
+5

Just to set the record straight, I personally have never told a joke for forum respect. My jokes are all pure of intention. I'm not a phony class clown like some users I won't name.
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popsofctown

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2018, 05:31:52 pm »
0

Definitely do not remove the respect system.  I won't disagree that jokes should be upvoted less and content upvoted more.  But that would essentially be censoring a certain format of speech, because you do not like the impact the speech has or what people are saying with it, and that should be against anyone's principles.

How would that be censoring? Anyone could still write whatever they like (as long as it doesn't violate the forum rules) with or without upvote system. The lack thereof, if anything, it would encourage people to write more quality content which is a good thing.

It is "You may post any idea you wish, but if that idea is 'I agree with this post, but have nothing to add', you must use four hundred times the space you need to post it".

It is a lot like "This is a free country and you can host a radio station with any political ideology you desire, but if that political ideology is the libertarianism you must have a minimum of 60% commercial time".
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markusin

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2018, 07:33:17 pm »
0

please don't remove the respect system.
I use it as a gauge to understand what strategic concepts and comments are well regarded.
It's not perfect, but it is FREQUENTLY useful for that.

I will echo this sentiment.

I've seen a bunch of long drawn out discussions between two or more people where next to none of the posts in the long debate get upvotes. That doesn't prevent the users from continuing the debate. It does warn me that I probably won't enjoy reading the whole debate, so I don't.

Similarly, I have a hard time imagining that someone like LastFootnote will stop making clever quips just because there is no upvote feature anymore.

Reddit's upvote/downvote system works thanks to a critical mass of people willing to upvote to greatly reduce the number of no-vote posts and resisting downvote trolls. We here at F.DS are not so lucky.

I think we also don't see a huge amount of upvotes for strategically relevant posts, possibly because we upvote for perfect agreement rather than acknowledgement of effort. I am guilty of this.
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crj

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2018, 08:56:16 pm »
+1

The whole point of it is supposed to be a way to silently express approval or lack thereof.
How can one express disapproval through the respect system in a way which is distinguishable from not having read a comment, or having no opinion on it?

I know various systems are opposed to thumbs-down mechanisms because they encourage negativity. On the other hand, the absence of a thumbs-down mechanism might increase the number of people who feel moved to make negative comments.

If every comment received twenty thumbs-up and two denunciatory replies, that thread could make pretty turgid reading.
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popsofctown

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2018, 09:06:48 pm »
0

The whole point of it is supposed to be a way to silently express approval or lack thereof.
How can one express disapproval through the respect system in a way which is distinguishable from not having read a comment, or having no opinion on it?

I know various systems are opposed to thumbs-down mechanisms because they encourage negativity. On the other hand, the absence of a thumbs-down mechanism might increase the number of people who feel moved to make negative comments.

If every comment received twenty thumbs-up and two denunciatory replies, that thread could make pretty turgid reading.

Ommiting a thumbs down feature, when not passed upon for reasons of technical feasibility, is also censorship.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2018, 09:39:13 pm »
+3

Just to set the record straight, I personally have never told a joke for forum respect. My jokes are all pure of intention. I'm not a phony class clown like some users I won't name.

Hey Iím working towards a 2-1 respect to post ratio here and it sure as hell isnít thanks to my insightful kingdom analyses.
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2018, 09:44:18 pm »
0

please don't remove the respect system.
I use it as a gauge to understand what strategic concepts and comments are well regarded.
It's not perfect, but it is FREQUENTLY useful for that.

It's a better idea to learn to recognize the names of the top players for that purpose. The advice that gets the most respect is what the average player already agrees with, and you shouldn't strive to become an average player.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2018, 11:59:31 pm »
+4

Ommiting a thumbs down feature, when not passed upon for reasons of technical feasibility, is also censorship.

It's the kind of censorship I can get behind!
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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2018, 05:34:07 am »
0

The respect system is going nowhere.  The whole point of it is supposed to be a way to silently express approval or lack thereof.  Indeed I would have thought it would have solved the problem people had in this thread.

It doesn't help that it's not anonymous.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: The more I read the worse I get?
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2018, 06:23:50 am »
0

Definitely do not remove the respect system.  I won't disagree that jokes should be upvoted less and content upvoted more.  But that would essentially be censoring a certain format of speech, because you do not like the impact the speech has or what people are saying with it, and that should be against anyone's principles.

I don't know what the answer is, but maybe aggressively forking offtrack topics are a good idea.  The large mafia subforum grew out of an "in defense of monopoly" thread, which shows that interesting things can come from sidetracks, but at the same time shows a thread can definitely dig deep into something that OP might not be interested.  Forking isn't really censoring people if it's done in an internally consistent way, and censorship should be a one-step-after-last resort, when you turn the server off, maybe you censor the powered down server a little bit, that's when it's ok.

You could split it in two.
Smiley for funny content, arrow or plus or thumbs up for serious content.
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