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Author Topic: Pay order mechanics  (Read 1446 times)

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MatthewCA

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2017, 12:32:43 pm »
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So as right now there are no effects that kick in as you spend money to pay for a card buy, it does not matter whether you will pay 1 coin then 1 potion then 2 coin then 3 coin and then 5 debt and then 4,5 and 6 coins - there is no order by which we must spend our money?

The way I understand it is all treasure you play (coins and potion) go into a "pool". Once you are done playing treasure cards, and adding treasure you got from Action cards, and coin tokens, you choose to buy a card (or more if you have more than one buy) then that amount of treasure gets subtracted from your "pool". Then any "on buy" effects happen. Taking debt happens here by my understanding. It doesn't matter if the debt is in the cost of the card, or if the debt is there as a result of the event Tax. So to answer your question, you "spend" everything you need to to buy a card at the same time. The order does not matter because you already have all the coins and potions before you buy cards. (I'm using the term pool because I can't think of what else to call this concept) Borrow is an exception, an event that you buy that gives one coin and another buy with which to use that coin is the only example I can think of right now that gives treasure after you buy it, so that's the flaw with this example I can think of.

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 12:43:47 pm by MatthewCA »
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Jeebus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 09:03:11 pm »
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So as right now there are no effects that kick in as you spend money to pay for a card buy, it does not matter whether you will pay 1 coin then 1 potion then 2 coin then 3 coin and then 5 debt and then 4,5 and 6 coins - there is no order by which we must spend our money?

Correct, there are no when-pay effects.

Then any "on buy" effects happen. Taking debt happens here by my understanding. It doesn't matter if the debt is in the cost of the card, or if the debt is there as a result of the event Tax.

As noted before, I'm pretty sure taking debt from the cost of the card isn't a when-buy effect. Rather it happens at the same time as you pay for the card, and when-buy abilities happen after. I don't think it matters with current cards though.

crj

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 11:51:04 pm »
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As noted before, I'm pretty sure taking debt from the cost of the card isn't a when-buy effect.
Interestingly, it seems fairly clear that on-buy effects do not necessarily occur after paying for the card (though taking the debt from a debt-cost card is certainly part of paying for it).

What makes me reach that conclusion is all the Guilds cards which say "When you buy this, you may overpay for it." That on-buy effect, at least, has to occur before or simultaneously with paying, or it makes no sense.
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AJD

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2017, 12:39:42 am »
+3

What makes me reach that conclusion is all the Guilds cards which say "When you buy this, you may overpay for it." That on-buy effect, at least, has to occur before or simultaneously with paying, or it makes no sense.

Why? You pay $2 for the Stonemason, and after doing that, you pay an additional amount for two more Actions.
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crj

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2017, 07:00:21 am »
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*shrug*

To me, "overpay" strongly suggests "pay a larger amount" rather than "subsequently pay an additional amount".
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Awaclus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2017, 07:20:58 am »
+1

*shrug*

To me, "overpay" strongly suggests "pay a larger amount" rather than "subsequently pay an additional amount".

But "when you buy" explicitly means the latter.
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Jeebus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2017, 09:09:59 am »
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Donald has confirmed that overpay is timed with other when-buy abilities. I don't remember if this is also stated in the rulebook.

crj

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2017, 12:39:27 pm »
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But "when you buy" explicitly means the latter.
[Citation needed]

I note that the Guilds rules say:
Quote
Overpaying happens when a card is paid for
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crj

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2017, 12:46:16 pm »
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Hmm. Hmm.

Possibly, the way everything makes consistent (if not intuitive) sense is if paying and overpaying occur simultaneously, but there's an implicit "when you buy a card, pay for it" on-buy effect which can be freely reordered with other on-buy effects.

Looking at the example a bit lower in the rulebook:
Quote
For example, if a player with Merchant Guild in play buys a Masterpiece, she chooses
whether to take a Coin token first, or overpay for Masterpiece first
The only way I can see to square that with the sentence in the previous paragraph is if you take the Coin token before paying-and-overpaying for Masterpiece.

...though I'm not sure there's any circumstance in which that matters?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2017, 02:02:15 pm »
+1

Hmm. Hmm.

Possibly, the way everything makes consistent (if not intuitive) sense is if paying and overpaying occur simultaneously, but there's an implicit "when you buy a card, pay for it" on-buy effect which can be freely reordered with other on-buy effects.

Looking at the example a bit lower in the rulebook:
Quote
For example, if a player with Merchant Guild in play buys a Masterpiece, she chooses
whether to take a Coin token first, or overpay for Masterpiece first
The only way I can see to square that with the sentence in the previous paragraph is if you take the Coin token before paying-and-overpaying for Masterpiece.

...though I'm not sure there's any circumstance in which that matters?

The Masterpiece example simply says that you can take the coin token before overpaying. It doesn’t in any way imply that you can take the coin token before paying. “Overpay” has no relationship to paying for the card. It is something different you can do. Don’t read too much into the English definition of “overpay”. What matters is the Dominion definition. Overpaying for a card is not “paying too much” like it is in English. It simply means that you can pay some amount of coins for some benefit; completely unrelated to buying the card. It just so happens that the only way to overpay in Dominion is as part of a when-buy trigger.

So with Merchant Guild in play, you can buy a Masterpeice (paying $3; no more no less), then you can take a coin token, then you can pay $x to take x Silvers.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 02:03:29 pm by GendoIkari »
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crj

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2017, 06:30:11 pm »
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“Overpay” has no relationship to paying for the card. It is something different you can do. [...] you can pay some amount of coins for some benefit; completely unrelated to buying the card.
To repeat, the Guilds rulebook says:
Quote
Overpaying happens when a card is paid for
That seems to make very clear that overpaying does have a relationship with paying for the card.
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Donald X.

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2017, 07:04:59 pm »
+3

The new rulebook will say "bought" instead there.

Overpaying is a when-buy trigger and is timed however the player wants vs. other when-buy triggers.
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