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LordClockworks

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Pay order mechanics
« on: December 26, 2017, 12:27:38 am »
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Suppose I have a Grand Market, Tax, Bonfire, village & Coppersmith in kingdom. If there are 2 Tax Debt tokens upon Grand Market, can i play 3 Grand Markets, village then play 2 coppersmith in action phase. Then play 2 coppers in Buy phase (each giving me 3$). Can i attemt to buy grand market with copper, pay 2 debt (thous receiving 2 debt tokens from gm pile), then attemt to pay 6 for gm and fail with its ability(cause copper in play), then pay debt tokens with copper money, then buy bonfire to trash copper from play and then buy gm without debt with only gms money?
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Chris is me

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2017, 12:31:26 am »
+2

Basically none of that works. You get the debt on-buy, and you canít buy Grand Market with Copper in play.

If you Bonfired the Copper after playing it, you can attempt to buy GM, and take the debt at that point and resolve it in that way, but you canít take the debt if you canít buy Grand Market, so you need to be able to do that first.

It doesnít matter what the *source* of the Coin is used to buy GM; it just matters if Copper is in play or not. You donít need to do these weird gymnastics to prevent money generated by Copper toward going to GM - you just need no Copper to be in play.
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2017, 01:00:53 am »
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So when i buy a card with a debt tokens from tax, if i can loose track of it due to on-buy effect i dont need to receive the debt?
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Donald X.

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2017, 01:06:22 am »
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So when i buy a card with a debt tokens from tax, if i can loose track of it due to on-buy effect i dont need to receive the debt?
No.

All lose track ever does is stop a card from moving (when it isn't where it was expected to be). It never stops any other kinds of things from happening.
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2017, 01:10:59 am »
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Thanks. Though my 1sr question was about order of paying, i just tried to create a situation where it mattered. So when i pay for a card which order i pay? If i get it right 1st i check gm ability *no coppers in play* then i can choose what i pay money/potion/debt in whichever order i wanna?
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2017, 01:14:25 am »
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Oh and then i pay a *1 buy* effect, right?
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enfynet

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 03:22:08 am »
+1

Suppose I have a Grand Market, Tax, Bonfire, village & Coppersmith in kingdom. If there are 2 Tax Debt tokens upon Grand Market, can i play 3 Grand Markets, village then play 2 coppersmith in action phase. Then play 2 coppers in Buy phase (each giving me 3$). Can i attemt to buy grand market with copper, pay 2 debt (thous receiving 2 debt tokens from gm pile), then attemt to pay 6 for gm and fail with its ability(cause copper in play), then pay debt tokens with copper money, then buy bonfire to trash copper from play and then buy gm without debt with only gms money?
3 GM = $6
2 Coppersmith -> 2 Copper = $6

$12
4 Buys
-Bonfire ($3)
Trash 2 Copper

$9
3 Buys
-Grand Market (+2 Debt tokens)

$3
2 Buys
-Pay off 2 Debt

$1
2 Buys

Why would it matter that you paid off the Debt before buying the GM?
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 05:46:27 am »
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It wouldnt. I just tried to create a hypothetical situation where i use 2 different on-pay* (lets call it so) effects. Which should happen before on-buys and fail to realise that Tax is on-buy. The premise of my question is an order of payment in a game. Do we pay all money simultaneusly? 1 by 1? By type? At which point we decrement buys?
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Chris is me

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 06:48:49 am »
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Letís try this again.

First, it does NOT matter what ďsourceĒ the Coin used to pay for ANYTHING comes from, so get that notion out of your head.

Second, taking Debt tokens is done on-buy, which is done after you buy the card (and thus after you pay itís normal cost).

The only prohibition on GM is that you cannot BUY it if Copper is in play. If Copper was in play, and then left play, the Coin the Copper generates isnít ďcontaminatedĒ or anything - you can spend it on whatever you want, so you donít need these gymnastics to buy Grand Market. Once you Bonfire those Copper you can buy anything with the Coin you have regardless of where it came from.

All of that said, what youíre proposing canít work anyway. You take the Debt only after you pay the regular cost of the card anyway. If it worked the other way around, you could never buy a card with Tax debt you couldnít immediately pay off. You can pay off Debt any time after you have taken it, which again is necessarily after you have bought the card the Debt came from.
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 07:38:22 am »
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Do Debt tokens of Tax or Debt tokens in general are taken on-buy? You mean, if i bought wedding, while having (expiriencing?/ activating? Whats a proper wording for that term i wonder..) some on-buy effect off it, the effect would (could?) be receieved before taking the debt? So if i got villa off such effect i would go to the action phase before receiving the Debt tokens? If yes would i be able to make a new buy before receiving debt tokens off the previous one?
I do understand that copper needs to be in play, yes. Thats why i asked if i try buying GM with debt tokens to take the debt and pay it off with copper in play, and buy GM later. (Without copper in play)
Did i get it right, that we pay coins and potion *before* buying and *debt* after?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 08:51:40 am »
+1

 I think I understand the question you're asking, but I'm not hundred percent sure.

To buy a card, you point at a card in the kingdom and say "I'm buying this one." You can only point at cards that you have the coins and potions (and buy) to pay for, and you can only point at cards you're allowed to buy (so you can't point at Grand Market with Copper in play). When you point at the card, you lose the coins and potions (and buy), and then trigger the "when you buy" effects.

One of the "when you buy" effects that always triggers is "gain that card you pointed at". You also trigger things like taking the debt tokens from tax, gaining VP from Goons you have in play, trashing a card with Farmland, etc. You then resolve those triggers in the order you choose. Some of those triggers may trigger more things -- if you buy Farmland, you can trash a card to gain I'll Gotten Gains. That causes a new trigger, which you resolve right away, before you go back to the original set of triggers. Eventually, you run out of triggers from buying the card, and you get back down to the original trigger, which makes you gain the card. (Which may trigger any number of new things.)

With Villa and Tax specifically, you get the debt tokens when you Buy Villa, but you only return to the Action phase when you finish Gainig Villa, which necessarily happens later.


Someone feel free to correct me if I got something wrong.
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2017, 09:38:29 am »
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So, correct me, if i'm wrong, each time i play a treasure in buy phase, i check things i can and cannot buy, after i finished playing treasures i choose something to buy from thing i can buy, then coins and potion gets substracted from my count, then i trigger on-buys and everything goes after? In my example, i gain Villa out of some sort of the on-buy effect chain (for this example lets assume i have a Haggler in play, when i bought Grand Market with 2 Debt tokens from Tax out of earlier example and gain Villa as a card that's cheaper than Grand Market off Haggler's "on-buy" ability), and(as far as i understand) i trigger Villa's "on gain" ability and gain it into my hand and return to the action phase, while i still in waiting to pay debt off Grand Market and still waiting to gain Grand Market, right?; thus i can play this Villa gain +1 Buy and buy something again before gaining Tax debt tokens off Grand Market? By the way, when do i receive Debt tokens from GM? As Donald X. said, even if i lost track of my Grand Market i will still pay debt off it.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 10:41:51 am »
+1

Even when Villa sends you to the Action phase, you still have to finish resolving all the triggers before doing anything else.

If you buy something with Tax debt tokens on it, and you have a Haggler in play, you choose the order of "gain a cheaper card" and "take the debt tokens". If you choose to "gain a cheaper card" first, and gain Villa, you'll trigger "go to the action phase", and then resolve that trigger, going to the action phase. You still have to resolve the old "take the debt tokens" (and the old "gain the card you bought") before you can do anything else (like play actions), though. Changing phases from Villa doesn't put the other triggers on hold or anything.
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popsofctown

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2017, 11:09:31 am »
0

Based on what you've posted, could I play Haggler, call coin of the realm, play Haggler, play a Silver, buy a Peddler, gain a Villa as a result of Haggler1, move to Action phase as a result of Villa gain, and gain a Bank as a result of Haggler2?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 11:15:53 am by popsofctown »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2017, 12:04:10 pm »
+2

Based on what you've posted, could I play Haggler, call coin of the realm, play Haggler, play a Silver, buy a Peddler, gain a Villa as a result of Haggler1, move to Action phase as a result of Villa gain, and gain a Bank as a result of Haggler2?

Doesn't Peddler cost $4 when you buy it, so Haggler1 can't make you gain Villa (because it doesn't cost less than Peddler)? In a magical world where Peddler's base cost is $9 (so it costs $5 with two Hagglers in play), then I would agree with the rest of your supposition, though.

I agree this sounds weird and makes me question my understanding of the relevant rules, though.
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J Reggie

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2017, 12:18:33 pm »
+1

Based on what you've posted, could I play Haggler, call coin of the realm, play Haggler, play a Silver, buy a Peddler, gain a Villa as a result of Haggler1, move to Action phase as a result of Villa gain, and gain a Bank as a result of Haggler2?

Doesn't Peddler cost $4 when you buy it, so Haggler1 can't make you gain Villa (because it doesn't cost less than Peddler)? In a magical world where Peddler's base cost is $9 (so it costs $5 with two Hagglers in play), then I would agree with the rest of your supposition, though.

I agree this sounds weird and makes me question my understanding of the relevant rules, though.

You could gain a Ferried Villa. I'm actually not sure how this would work; what are the other rulings on when a card changes cost in the middle of something that cares about its cost?

Jeebus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2017, 02:11:38 pm »
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Some wrong things have been said, which is that taking debt is a when-buy trigger, and that gaining the bought card is a when-buy trigger. Instead, this is how it happens:

1) Choose a card to buy (that you are allowed to buy).
2) Buy the card, paying for it (deducting coins and potions from what you have) and also taking any debt tokens.
3) Trigger when-buy abilities, and resolve them one by one.
4) Gain the card, moving it to (normally) your discard pile.
5) Trigger when-gain abilities, and resolve them one by one.

EDIT: Debt tokens from Tax is indeed a when-buy trigger, so nobody said that wrong, sorry. Step 2 above refers to buying a card with debt in its cost. Taking debt tokens from Tax occurs in step 3.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 03:13:49 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2017, 02:19:16 pm »
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Play Haggler and Haggler, buy Peddler, gain Ferried Villa, gain Bank - should work. (Note that you gain the Peddler last, but it doesn't matter here.)

chipperMDW

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2017, 03:01:36 pm »
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Thats why i asked if i try buying GM with debt tokens to take the debt and pay it off with copper in play, and buy GM later. (Without copper in play)
Did i get it right, that we pay coins and potion *before* buying and *debt* after?

It is an illegal move to buy a Grand Market while Copper is in play. You can't even "try and fail." It would be like trying to buy a $6 Grand Market when you only have $3; it's just not something you're ever allowed to do or even attempt to do. So, no, you can't attempt to buy Grand Market with Copper in play just because you want to get the debt for some reason.

One of the "when you buy" effects that always triggers is "gain that card you pointed at".

No, gaining the card is not a when-buy effect, at least not what is normally referred to by that term. It doesn't have the same timing as things that happen "when you buy X"; it always occurs after all those effects. (I suppose you could think of it the one and only "after-buy" effect, though.)

So, correct me, if i'm wrong, each time i play a treasure in buy phase, i check things i can and cannot buy, after i finished playing treasures i choose something to buy from thing i can buy, then coins and potion gets substracted from my count, then i trigger on-buys and everything goes after?

You "check" at all moments the game allows you to buy something (i.e. when it's during your buy phase and you have buys remaining (or when something else like Black Market tells you to buy something) and don't have any debt); in practice, you would wait until you'd played all treasures you were planning to before checking, but you could examine your options after each treasure you play, sure. At the moment you check, in addition to the requirements of the card needing to exist as the top card of a supply pile (or be allowed by Black Market), and you needing to have enough coins and potions to afford its cost, there may be any number of effects (Grand Market, Contraband, Mission, all "once-per-turn" events, Deluded...) that make a certain choice illegal.

When you make a (legal) choice of a thing to buy, you lose the +buy, the coins, and the potions, and you take the debt tokens, all according to the card's cost. (Losing the +buy is actually slightly different from those other things; the others happen any time you buy a card, but losing the +buy is specifically part of normal buying during the buy phase and doesn't occur when buying from Black Market.)

(If the thing you bought was an event, then its effect occurs here. The rest applies only to buying cards.)

Then you trigger "when-buy" effects. (Tax's debt-taking happens here, in contrast to the debt-taking that happens when you buy a card with debt cost.)

Then you would gain a card with the same name that the card you bought had at the time you bought it. (That convolution is required because the when-buy effects may have moved the exact card (see Talisman), so it might end up that you would gain a different individual card than the one you bought. And it may be determined that there is no card that you would gain at this point, like if you bought Sir Martin with Talisman out, in which case no "would-gain" effects would occur here.) Any "would-gain" effects happen here; those include effects on Trader and Possession (but does not include cards like Nomad Camp and Ghost Town stating that they are gained to alternate locations... those just modify how the gain occurs when the gain instruction does not specify a destination, and they cannot be reordered like when-gain effects). If a would-gain effect causes something to happen "instead" of the gain, then the next paragraph gets skipped.

Finally, you gain the card it was determined that you "would gain" in the last paragraph. Again, if a would-gain caused something else to happen instead, you skip this part.

Then "when-gain" effects happen.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 03:14:39 pm by chipperMDW »
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Jeebus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2017, 03:25:50 pm »
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Any "would-gain" effects happen here; those include effects on Trader and Possession (but does not include cards like Nomad Camp and Ghost Town stating that they are gained to alternate locations... those just modify how the gain occurs when the gain instruction does not specify a destination, and they cannot be reordered like when-gain effects).

I think "would-gain" actually is the correct timing of Nomad Camp and Ghost Town now. They modify the upcoming gain, changing it so that you gain to your deck/hand, but only if you were already gaining to your discard pile, exactly as they say. So these abilities could be ordered with other would-gain abilities like Trader and Possession; it's just that it doesn't make any difference.

chipperMDW

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2017, 04:09:12 pm »
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I think "would-gain" actually is the correct timing of Nomad Camp and Ghost Town now. They modify the upcoming gain, changing it so that you gain to your deck/hand, but only if you were already gaining to your discard pile, exactly as they say. So these abilities could be ordered with other would-gain abilities like Trader and Possession; it's just that it doesn't make any difference.

Based on its phrasing and on Donald's description (quoted below), I was interpreting "is gained to" as an always-on effect that continually modifies the card's "preferred" gain destination, meaning the effect never needs to trigger at all, and there is no "timing" to speak of. (So if there were an effect that said, "When you would gain a card to your hand, gain a Gold instead," you couldn't reorder that with Ghost Town's effect to decide between gaining it and Gold; you'd just be stuck gaining the Gold.)

(Contrast Champion, which could have just said "you're unaffected by attacks played by other players" and had it be an always-on thing, but instead phrases it as a triggered thing. So if there were an effect that said, "When another player plays an attack, if you're unaffected by it, gain a Gold," you could order the effects so you effectively choose whether to gain a Gold.)

Nomad Camp and Ghost Town specify a not-usual gain-destination.

Cobbler and Armory over the gain-destination of a card and put it somewhere else.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 04:14:40 pm by chipperMDW »
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Jeebus

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2017, 05:47:13 pm »
+1

Based on its phrasing and on Donald's description (quoted below), I was interpreting "is gained to" as an always-on effect that continually modifies the card's "preferred" gain destination, meaning the effect never needs to trigger at all, and there is no "timing" to speak of. (So if there were an effect that said, "When you would gain a card to your hand, gain a Gold instead," you couldn't reorder that with Ghost Town's effect to decide between gaining it and Gold; you'd just be stuck gaining the Gold.)

(Contrast Champion, which could have just said "you're unaffected by attacks played by other players" and had it be an always-on thing, but instead phrases it as a triggered thing. So if there were an effect that said, "When another player plays an attack, if you're unaffected by it, gain a Gold," you could order the effects so you effectively choose whether to gain a Gold.)

Effectively I think it won't ever make a difference how we phrase it.

Your example doesn't work, because you would gain a Gold in whichever case: The ability wouldn't trigger before Ghost Town has been redirected to your hand, because it says "when you would gain a card to your hand". (And if we change it to, "When you would gain a card to your discard pile," assuming you can order that ability and Ghost Town's ability, they still both trigger, so even if you resolve Ghost Town first, you still gain the Gold.)

Your Champion example is different. It says, "When x happens, if y..." So it triggers whether y is true or not. So I guess you're right that you could order it to avoid the Gold. To achive this in the first example, we would need, "When you would gain a card, if it's to your hand, gain a Gold instead." This is an extremely contrived example though.

Anyway, I guess you could see it as an on-going effect with no timing: Cards are gained per default to your discard pile, except for Ghost Town, Nomad Camp, etc. It's just that all other abilities given on cards have a timing for when they kick in, so this kind of ability would be unique in that sense. As I said, in the end it works whichever way now, and probably it will always be like that. I've been wrong in the past about weird new mechanics though. If it ever matters, we'll find out at that point!

chipperMDW

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2017, 07:10:01 pm »
+1

Your example doesn't work...
You're right; my example didn't quite do what I wanted. Your fix does.

Quote
It's just that all other abilities given on cards have a timing for when they kick in, so this kind of ability would be unique in that sense.
I consider Gardens, for instance, to have an ongoing effect that's always on. But I know we've disagreed in the past about what could/should be described as an ongoing effect.

Quote
If it ever matters, we'll find out at that point!
Indeed!
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popsofctown

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2017, 08:08:52 pm »
0

Yeah, sorry, I can't count, obviously I was using Coin of the Realm to keep Peddler's cost high but still messed up.

Thanks for the Ferry broham
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LordClockworks

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Re: Pay order mechanics
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2017, 05:14:28 am »
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So as right now there are no effects that kick in as you spend money to pay for a card buy, it does not matter whether you will pay 1 coin then 1 potion then 2 coin then 3 coin and then 5 debt and then 4,5 and 6 coins - there is no order by which we must spend our money?
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