Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing  (Read 3798 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2732
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3622
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2017, 08:00:10 pm »
+3

two Urchins
[...]
Tournament/Province
[...]
Magic Lamp

It really feels like Treasure Map ought to be mentioned in the same breath as those.

The difference between those and treasure map is all of the other examples are on average very strong so you usually go for it but you might get unlucky, whereas tmap is on average very weak so you usually don't go for it, but you might get lucky if you do.
Logged

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 990
  • Respect: +1073
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2017, 08:20:41 pm »
+1

Some kingdoms contain the tools you need to help Treasure Maps collide; some don't.

The same can be said for Province/Tournament or Magic Lamp/6 distinct uniques.

So then the question becomes: in each case, how likely is it that a random kingdom will contain the help one needs?
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5534
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • Respect: +3481
    • View Profile
    • The Border Village
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2017, 08:26:33 pm »
0

So many insane hot takes in this thread.
Logged
Don't let this one slip, or you could be going to military school.

Join Dominion Discord

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2732
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3622
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2017, 08:27:38 pm »
0

Some kingdoms contain the tools you need to help Treasure Maps collide; some don't.

The same can be said for Province/Tournament or Magic Lamp/6 distinct uniques.

So then the question becomes: in each case, how likely is it that a random kingdom will contain the help one needs?

With tournament or lamp? A majority of the time. With maps, a minority of the time (though you can sometime back into them as payload once you've built). This is why I said "on average". Obviously exceptions always exist.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10883
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11509
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2017, 09:35:09 pm »
+1

Treasure Map and Tournament continue to be not valid comparisons because they don't start in your deck way before your deck has any chance of doing anything consistently.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2566
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3199
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2017, 10:19:07 pm »
+1

Treasure Map and Tournament continue to be not valid comparisons because they don't start in your deck way before your deck has any chance of doing anything consistently.

Your deck does not start with the ability to activate Magic Lamp.

It takes fewer turns to put two Treasure Maps in your deck than it does to put four more unique cards in your deck. It can even be faster to spike Tournament and Province than getting a possible Magic Lamp.

Stop being such a pathetic whiny baby about this one card and grow the fuck up.

User was warned for this post
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 11:26:14 pm by theory »
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3359
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3695
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2017, 11:12:33 pm »
+6

Treasure Map and Tournament continue to be not valid comparisons because they don't start in your deck way before your deck has any chance of doing anything consistently.

Your deck does not start with the ability to activate Magic Lamp.

It takes fewer turns to put two Treasure Maps in your deck than it does to put four more unique cards in your deck. It can even be faster to spike Tournament and Province than getting a possible Magic Lamp.

Stop being such a pathetic whiny baby about this one card and grow the fuck up.

This response is way overboard.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1280
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +631
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2017, 03:01:14 am »
0

two Urchins
[...]
Tournament/Province
[...]
Magic Lamp

Magic Lamp gives you three Wishes, but you can only ever do it once.

...

Is Magic Lamp really a bigger deal than Tournament and Treasure Map?

One also has to take into account that Tournament prizes and Gold Treasures are topdecked (= no reshuffle before they take effect) while the cards gained with Wishes take two reshuffles before taking effect. The difference between "four Golds now" and "three strong cards some time later" is considerable (even though in many cases only 2 2/3 of the 4 topdecked Golds are effectively used so that four Golds shuffled into draw pile might even be stronger).
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1145
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1769
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2017, 03:26:35 am »
+3

two Urchins
[...]
Tournament/Province
[...]
Magic Lamp

Magic Lamp gives you three Wishes, but you can only ever do it once.

...

Is Magic Lamp really a bigger deal than Tournament and Treasure Map?

One also has to take into account that Tournament prizes and Gold Treasures are topdecked (= no reshuffle before they take effect) while the cards gained with Wishes take two reshuffles before taking effect. The difference between "four Golds now" and "three strong cards some time later" is considerable (even though in many cases only 2 2/3 of the 4 topdecked Golds are effectively used so that four Golds shuffled into draw pile might even be stronger).

One reshuffle. Wishes gain to hand. It's like lamp said, gain three cards costing up to 6. But it gives you wishes instead, so you get a bit more flexibility.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10883
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11509
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2017, 06:25:15 am »
0

It takes fewer turns to put two Treasure Maps in your deck than it does to put four more unique cards in your deck. It can even be faster to spike Tournament and Province than getting a possible Magic Lamp.

But you never buy two TMs or Tournament/Province that early, because it's not a very good play.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +841
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2017, 06:42:02 am »
+4

I'm not arguing with the technical observations of Magic Lamp. Awaclus is certainly correct about those, but I strongly disagree with Magic Lamp being dumb.

Magic Lamp is one of my favourite cards in Nocturne. I love the minigame associated with it and had a blast every time I played with it. I can only remember one game where me and my opponent didn't activate our Lamps on consecutive turns.

I know it can be very swingy, as can a lot of other cards. But I'm of the opinion that the fun aspect of a card is an end in itself. I assume the majority of people are enjoying this card, too which is why Donald released it.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2286
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3210
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2017, 07:06:18 am »
0

I kind of get both points of view.

I do think the minigame is fun. It is less fun if it decides the game and you end up playing just the minigame instead of a game of Dominion.

In my opinion, Leprechaun is Wish done right: You still get the minigame, but it is harder and less luck is involved (since you're allowed to play multiples). The benefit is not game-winning, and it is pretty hard to activate it twice on the same turn. Also, Gold clogging means you will struggle to keep activating it.

Magic Lamp just gives you all the stuff right away, and basically your opponent has to connect his in the same shuffle or the game is all but over.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 990
  • Respect: +1073
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2017, 11:09:35 am »
0

I've not played with Leprechaun yet, but by inspection, the fact that you can't (easily) count treasures towards the cards in play for Leprechaun looks like a larger consideration than the "exactly", or the lack of prohibition on duplicates.

Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10883
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11509
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2017, 11:23:37 am »
0

I've not played with Leprechaun yet, but by inspection, the fact that you can't (easily) count treasures towards the cards in play for Leprechaun looks like a larger consideration than the "exactly", or the lack of prohibition on duplicates.

It is a larger consideration, but you don't buy Leprechaun until you can do that consistently. You start the game with Magic Lamp in your deck.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 848
  • Respect: +1555
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2017, 11:32:42 am »
0

Your deck does not start with the ability to activate Magic Lamp.

It takes fewer turns to put two Treasure Maps in your deck than it does to put four more unique cards in your deck. It can even be faster to spike Tournament and Province than getting a possible Magic Lamp.

When playing with just one other Heirloom or Shelters (Necropolis), it's possible to activate it on turn 3. I'm not saying that's normal, but in the game I referenced earlier in this thread, my opponent activated it on turn 5.

While it sucked to be on the other end of that, I don't think it felt worse than Urchin/Urchin or Tournament or any number of other swingy events.
Logged

dedicateddan

  • 2017 Dominion Online Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
  • Shuffle iT Username: dan brooks
  • Respect: +1045
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2017, 11:56:41 am »
+14

But you never buy Tournament/Province that early, because it's not a very good play.

I would encourage all of my tournament opponents to follow this advice :)
Logged

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 990
  • Respect: +1073
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2017, 12:38:31 pm »
0

It is a larger consideration, but you don't buy Leprechaun until you can do that consistently. You start the game with Magic Lamp in your deck.
Do you not? $3 looks like a good price for a card that gives you early Golds in exchange for getting Hexed a bit. Leprechaun/Night Watchman, for example, looks like it would be a strong opening.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10883
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11509
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2017, 02:10:20 pm »
0

It is a larger consideration, but you don't buy Leprechaun until you can do that consistently. You start the game with Magic Lamp in your deck.
Do you not? $3 looks like a good price for a card that gives you early Golds in exchange for getting Hexed a bit. Leprechaun/Night Watchman, for example, looks like it would be a strong opening.

The problem is that you don't want to get Hexed and you don't really want too many Golds either, and Leprechaun itself is a terminal stop that doesn't give you any money.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

greybirdofprey

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
  • Respect: +171
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2017, 03:00:47 pm »
+1

It is a larger consideration, but you don't buy Leprechaun until you can do that consistently. You start the game with Magic Lamp in your deck.
Do you not? $3 looks like a good price for a card that gives you early Golds in exchange for getting Hexed a bit. Leprechaun/Night Watchman, for example, looks like it would be a strong opening.

The problem is that you don't want to get Hexed and you don't really want too many Golds either, and Leprechaun itself is a terminal stop that doesn't give you any money.

But Gold is such good trash-for-benefit fodder.
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1123
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1639
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2017, 03:03:06 pm »
+2

Your deck does not start with the ability to activate Magic Lamp.

Logged

Holger

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 413
  • Respect: +200
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2017, 03:58:43 pm »
+9

Your deck does not start with the ability to activate Magic Lamp.



Well, I'm quite sure you can't  activate it with just your starting cards, but you CAN  activate it on turn 1: With a starting hand of ML, 3 other heirlooms and a copper, play the latter 4 to buy a Villa, then play it and Magic Lamp.   ;)
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7365
  • Respect: +8183
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2017, 04:50:40 am »
+2

So how much stronger or different is it that you get a Wish instead of getting a card costing up to ? I suppose that generally the Wish is a little stronger because you can choose what you need right when you have it in your hand; but I would think that 90% of the time you'll take the same card you would have taken if you had to chose back when you got the Wish instead.

On the other hand, it has a minor drawback in that you can draw a Wish dead, and if you do, you've delayed that card yet another shuffle. If you were going to gain an Action, that doesn't matter much,because that Action would have been drawn dead anyway. But if you were gaining a Night, Treasure, or Victory card, that could matter a lot.

As a whole, Wish seems like an odd card to have; do people find it actually plays much different from "gain a card costing up to "?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2072
  • Respect: +2504
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2017, 05:22:47 am »
+4

So how much stronger or different is it that you get a Wish instead of getting a card costing up to ? I suppose that generally the Wish is a little stronger because you can choose what you need right when you have it in your hand; but I would think that 90% of the time you'll take the same card you would have taken if you had to chose back when you got the Wish instead.

On the other hand, it has a minor drawback in that you can draw a Wish dead, and if you do, you've delayed that card yet another shuffle. If you were going to gain an Action, that doesn't matter much,because that Action would have been drawn dead anyway. But if you were gaining a Night, Treasure, or Victory card, that could matter a lot.

As a whole, Wish seems like an odd card to have; do people find it actually plays much different from "gain a card costing up to "?

I haven't played with Wish that often, but yes, it is pretty different. A lot of things can change between when you gain the Wish and when you get to play it. Sometimes your money distribution is weird and you don't get to buy the cards you thought you could, sometimes you're just plain wrong about what the right card to gain was, and sometimes your hand needs a card it doesn't have.

The flavor argument for Wish is way better than any strategy argument though.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

greybirdofprey

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
  • Respect: +171
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 05:27:29 am »
0

For people who have actually played with Wish: how does it compare to Overlord?
Aside from the obvious differences like Wish being one time only, getting them, Wish getting non-actions and $6-costs.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10883
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11509
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2017, 06:56:47 am »
+5

For people who have actually played with Wish: how does it compare to Overlord?
Aside from the obvious differences like Wish being one time only, getting them, Wish getting non-actions and $6-costs.

Well, there are really no other differences than the obvious ones.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.24 seconds with 21 queries.