Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing  (Read 3691 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« on: December 20, 2017, 03:42:55 pm »
0

It might as well read "Roll a 6-sided die. If it's a 6, the game is over and you win." because that's incredibly close to what it does.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2730
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3614
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 03:46:38 pm »
+1

It does seem very swingy, but it's something strong you usually need to build around, and I'm not sure it's more swingy than other cards in that class.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 840
  • Respect: +1526
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2017, 07:28:06 pm »
+2

Had a game with Shelters, Magic Lamp and Menagerie recently that felt very much like this.

I didn't roll the six.
Logged

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 927
  • Respect: +1032
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 08:41:35 pm »
+2

I played a Magic Lamp game this evening. Two players. Opponent and I managed to cash in our Magic Lamps on consecutive turns.

He got there by buying Werewolves, Secret Caves and Cursed Villages (draw to 6, discard duplicates, play some stuff, lather, rinse, repeat); I got there by thinning away much of my Copper and buying an early Skulk. (Oh, and having a Raider still in play from my previous turn, so I didn't even need to draw more cards.)

It felt like both were well-conceived strategies that worked, neither relying overmuch on luck.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 08:43:21 pm by crj »
Logged

Commodore Chuckles

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 463
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +713
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 10:58:07 pm »
+1

I don't think it's any swingier than Tournament. Both of them reward building your deck so that you can collide cards in a certain way. It's probably less swingy than Tournament, actually, because there's only one of each Prize. I admit I haven't played with it much, but that's my impression of it so far.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7149
  • Respect: +7974
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 11:05:52 pm »
+1

Having not played with it myself, I'm not seeing why it would be swingy or luck-based. It sounds a lot like Horn of Plenty, which doesn't feel swingy or luck-based. It rewards building a deck that can get a lot of different cards into play at once. Playing one is kind of like playing 3 Horn of Plenties... which is great, but not swingy.

And Tournament is seen as Swingy because it strongly rewards the first player to pull it off. Magic Lamp is just as good if you pull it off second; especially if you do so before your opponent shuffles.

So what am I missing?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2730
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3614
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 11:20:52 pm »
+2

Having not played with it myself, I'm not seeing why it would be swingy or luck-based. It sounds a lot like Horn of Plenty, which doesn't feel swingy or luck-based. It rewards building a deck that can get a lot of different cards into play at once. Playing one is kind of like playing 3 Horn of Plenties... which is great, but not swingy.

And Tournament is seen as Swingy because it strongly rewards the first player to pull it off. Magic Lamp is just as good if you pull it off second; especially if you do so before your opponent shuffles.

So what am I missing?

It's likely one player can hit a shuffle or two before the other. Wishes are crazy good since they non-terminally gain to hand. If you get 3 more good cards in your deck even a shuffle faster, the snowball effect is going to be huge.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8058
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9368
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 11:57:04 pm »
+7

It is a law of Dominion that the first time you play Zombie Mason, it will trash your Magic Lamp.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5243
  • Respect: +2695
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 12:07:27 am »
+1

It's pretty silly on boards with no Villages, but numerous interchangeable cantrips.  It's basically never correct to double up on any one cantrip; both players mirror, and since cantripping isn't a consistent method one player goes off far sooner than the other..

With villages in trashing, I'm not as immediately convinced it's any worse than anything else.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7073
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9314
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 01:02:07 am »
+7

It might as well read "Roll a 6-sided die. If it's a 6, the game is over and you win." because that's incredibly close to what it does.

I've told you a million times not to use hyperbole!

Also, I disagree.  It's tricky to get the Wishes, but not nearly as hard as rolling a 6... and your opponent has the chance to get the same Wishes, as opposed to getting Diadem instead of Trusty Steed and Princess.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 06:21:33 am »
+1

Having not played with it myself, I'm not seeing why it would be swingy or luck-based. It sounds a lot like Horn of Plenty, which doesn't feel swingy or luck-based. It rewards building a deck that can get a lot of different cards into play at once. Playing one is kind of like playing 3 Horn of Plenties... which is great, but not swingy.

And Tournament is seen as Swingy because it strongly rewards the first player to pull it off. Magic Lamp is just as good if you pull it off second; especially if you do so before your opponent shuffles.

So what am I missing?

Magic Lamp starts in your deck and rewards building your deck more or less the way you would build it anyway, which is trashing your starting cards and cycling a lot, except that normally you would buy more copies of the same cards to make your deck more consistent, but with Magic Lamp, you have to make your deck less consistent by buying uniques instead. There's a bit of a choice between prioritizing a consistent deck and prioritizing the uniques, but it's a crapshoot either way because in the former case, you can either connect your duplicates or not, and in the latter case, you can either draw enough of your cards or not.

It is absolutely crucial to get it as early as possible because the more turns you spend buying $3-5 cards while your opponent has a fully functioning engine (which they have after connecting Magic Lamp), the more they're ahead by the time you connect it.

Horn of Plenty is different because you don't generally buy it until you're already able to hit 5 uniques every time. At that point, it isn't swingy anymore. Magic Lamp is, because it's possible to get 6 uniques before you're getting them consistently in fact, it almost always happens and then the other player doesn't get 6 uniques because they aren't doing so consistently either.

Tournament is also different because you have to balance getting the Provinces vs. building the engine, and the Prizes are rarely strong enough to decide the game on their own. Someone who just tries to get Princess as fast as possible can easily lose against someone who builds the engine first the latter player doesn't have the Princess, but they have the engine, which is usually better than having the Princess but not the engine. With Magic Lamp, the way to connect it is to build the engine, and as soon as it connects, you automatically have the engine, so it's impossible to compete with that by playing better.

It's more comparable to Urchin and Sauna than anything else. Those cards still have more of a skill element to them than Magic Lamp, and their effects are nowhere near as strong as getting three Wishes while getting rid of the Magic Lamp, but they can sometimes have the same effect where both players have to open Urchin/Urchin or Sauna/Silver and then one of them has a significant advantage just because theirs connected. The main reason why Magic Lamp is dumber is that the advantage is so much bigger, plus it's a one-shot effect; you can still have a hard time connecting Urchins or Saunas again after getting lucky one time, which can allow the opponent to catch up, but if you connect Magic Lamp a shuffle before your opponent, you just win.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 619
  • Respect: +951
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 10:55:56 am »
+1

So, was everyone distracted by the randomness of boons/Hexes, that we missed the real power card of Nocturne?  Our play group hasn't gotten to the stage where we just go all out for Magic Lamp, but I could see this happening.  Magic Lamp seems fairly powerful, in contrast to Haunted Mirror, which is far weaker than I initially thought.

It's a shame we're not ranking heirlooms in the Qvist rankings.  I mean, I understand why given the difficulties--which category could you usefully put them in?  But it would be cool to see Magic Lamp or whatever shoot up in the rankings if/when people realize how powerful it is.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Respect: +597
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 11:07:37 am »
+2

Quote
He got there by buying Werewolves, Secret Caves and Cursed Villages (draw to 6, discard duplicates, play some stuff, lather, rinse, repeat);

Wait a minute. You can't "repeat." As soon as you play your second Cursed Village (or second anything) you can't cash in the lamp. It's more like lather, rinse, get soap in your eyes, swear, try rinsing again.

The actual sequence is: Play your cursed Village, draw to 6, play Werewolf to draw three, hope you got lucky and now have four other uniques in hand, because if you don't, lamp's not happening this turn, and no amount of additional villages and werewolves can help you get there.

Having playable durations helps a great deal, though I'd hate to have to play Secret Cave in a kingdom without Cursed Village to improve it. A turn that starts Secret Cave, discard duplicates, Cursed Village, then Werewolf stands a good chance of lamping, but that does rely on getting those cards in a particular order.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Respect: +597
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 11:13:51 am »
0

Quote
Haunted Mirror, which is far weaker than I initially thought.

I've found myself skipping Ghost quite a bit. It only seems worth the effort if you only have power actions worth duplicating, which isn't always the case. I've watched players over-invest in getting a Ghost and then having it turn up...a Will-O'-Wisp...Or a Mandarin (way to Ghost Ship yourself! Enjoy your $6.)

I did kind of enjoy getting an early Ghost in a Swindler slog, though. Double-ouch.
Logged

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3351
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3687
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 11:34:53 am »
+4

Quote
He got there by buying Werewolves, Secret Caves and Cursed Villages (draw to 6, discard duplicates, play some stuff, lather, rinse, repeat);

Wait a minute. You can't "repeat." As soon as you play your second Cursed Village (or second anything) you can't cash in the lamp. It's more like lather, rinse, get soap in your eyes, swear, try rinsing again.

The actual sequence is: Play your cursed Village, draw to 6, play Werewolf to draw three, hope you got lucky and now have four other uniques in hand, because if you don't, lamp's not happening this turn, and no amount of additional villages and werewolves can help you get there.

Having playable durations helps a great deal, though I'd hate to have to play Secret Cave in a kingdom without Cursed Village to improve it. A turn that starts Secret Cave, discard duplicates, Cursed Village, then Werewolf stands a good chance of lamping, but that does rely on getting those cards in a particular order.

You do realize you can play more than one copy of the same card, right? It just won't count for Magic Lamp. Just asking because it sounds like you are saying that it's impossible for you to activate Magic Lamp if you play two Cursed Villages. It will be harder, for sure, but it's still possible.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1217
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2017, 11:41:39 am »
+1

Quote
Haunted Mirror, which is far weaker than I initially thought.

I've found myself skipping Ghost quite a bit. It only seems worth the effort if you only have power actions worth duplicating, which isn't always the case. I've watched players over-invest in getting a Ghost and then having it turn up...a Will-O'-Wisp...Or a Mandarin (way to Ghost Ship yourself! Enjoy your $6.)

I did kind of enjoy getting an early Ghost in a Swindler slog, though. Double-ouch.

Ghost playing Will-o-wisp is great!  Start the turn with +2 actions and +2-4 cards.  That being said, the Ghost from Haunted Mirror isn't always amazing, because of how asymmetrical a single Ghost makes your turns.  I think it's rarely worth going out of your way to activate the Haunted Mirror, but it's definitely a benefit when you do get the Ghost.
Logged

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 619
  • Respect: +951
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2017, 12:02:30 pm »
+4

Someone should play & record a Secret Cave cage match, where the first player to trigger Magic Lamp wins.  Then you continue the game just to see who would have won normally.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4022
  • Respect: +2558
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2017, 12:05:05 pm »
+5

Someone should play & record a Secret Cave cage match, where the first player to trigger Magic Lamp wins.  Then you continue the game just to see who would have won normally.

Can anyone remember the old days when people complained that whoever bought the first gold was sure to win? Those were good times.
Logged

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1682
  • Respect: +1147
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2017, 12:49:01 pm »
+3

Quote
He got there by buying Werewolves, Secret Caves and Cursed Villages (draw to 6, discard duplicates, play some stuff, lather, rinse, repeat);

Wait a minute. You can't "repeat." As soon as you play your second Cursed Village (or second anything) you can't cash in the lamp. It's more like lather, rinse, get soap in your eyes, swear, try rinsing again.

The actual sequence is: Play your cursed Village, draw to 6, play Werewolf to draw three, hope you got lucky and now have four other uniques in hand, because if you don't, lamp's not happening this turn, and no amount of additional villages and werewolves can help you get there.

Having playable durations helps a great deal, though I'd hate to have to play Secret Cave in a kingdom without Cursed Village to improve it. A turn that starts Secret Cave, discard duplicates, Cursed Village, then Werewolf stands a good chance of lamping, but that does rely on getting those cards in a particular order.

You do realize you can play more than one copy of the same card, right? It just won't count for Magic Lamp. Just asking because it sounds like you are saying that it's impossible for you to activate Magic Lamp if you play two Cursed Villages. It will be harder, for sure, but it's still possible.
I don't understand how this is very difficult.

1. Cursed Village
2. Secret Cave
3. Werewolf
4. Copper
5. Silver
6. Magic Lamp
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 927
  • Respect: +1032
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2017, 01:18:55 pm »
0

Just asking because it sounds like you are saying that it's impossible for you to activate Magic Lamp if you play two Cursed Villages. It will be harder, for sure, but it's still possible.
Depends. If your second Cursed Village draws you one card you've not played before, you've broken even. If it draws you two, you're ahead. (And remember you'd quite like to improve your hand and have a better turn at the same time as setting up for Magic Lamp.)

It feels as though, especially with several distinct Heirlooms flying around, if you can just draw and sift heaps of cards then playing six uniques will often be fairly straightforward.

Neither of us managed to cash in our Magic Lamps especially quickly, but we both got there by routes that were also useful in their own rights.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2017, 01:41:33 pm »
0

I don't understand how this is very difficult.

1. Cursed Village
2. Secret Cave
3. Werewolf
4. Copper
5. Silver
6. Magic Lamp

Because Cursed Village and Werewolf don't count if you have more than one copy of them in play.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1682
  • Respect: +1147
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2017, 02:06:13 pm »
0

But if you're aiming to trash Magic Lamp, it seems pretty simple to set up.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2017, 02:24:59 pm »
0

But if you're aiming to trash Magic Lamp, it seems pretty simple to set up.

It's simple if you draw the cards in the correct order. It's not if you don't. That's why it's a dumb card.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Respect: +597
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2017, 04:46:35 pm »
+2

On swinginess: Working hard and/or getting lucky to collide two Urchins puts a bomb into your deck. Working hard and/or getting lucky to spike $8 and subsequently collide Tournament/Province puts a bomb into your deck. Working hard and/or getting lucky enough to set off Magic Lamp puts THREE bombs into your deck. (Note the lower-case "b" in all cases.)

I wouldn't go as far as calling it dumb, but it's definitely swingy and hard to pull off predictably. I don't think minimizing the difficulty of activating it is an effective argument. It's just a card you have to factor into your decision making, try your best to activate it, and just accept that sometimes your opponent will get it first. It's not the first card like that, and it won't be the last. It's still a card game, after all. In the long run, the better players will still come out ahead.

For the humor value: I've played a few on-line games with experienced players relatively new to Nocturne who were repeatedly forgetting to even attempt to activate it. I kept seeing them play it, then play other treasures that would have set it off. The chat log kept being new two-word messages from me posting, "magic lamp!" (next turn) "Magic Lamp!!" (next turn) "MAGIC LAMP!!!!"
Logged

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 927
  • Respect: +1032
    • View Profile
Re: Magic Lamp is the dumbest card-shaped thing
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2017, 07:31:10 pm »
+1

two Urchins
[...]
Tournament/Province
[...]
Magic Lamp

It really feels like Treasure Map ought to be mentioned in the same breath as those. Perhaps also Hermit/Madman. I also remember one tense game in which I managed to get my Champion on the table just before an opponent's Warrior engine went off, which is a kind of anti-bomb.

Magic Lamp gives you three Wishes, but you can only ever do it once. And now that I've experienced the frustration of drawing a Wish dead, I'll note it's not strictly better than Gold to have in your deck. Meanwhile, Treasure Map gives you four Golds. Top-decked. (Wish may gain you a card to hand, but the Wish itself is gained to discard.) How does the power of the benefit, the difficulty of setup, the swinginess, of Magic Lamp compare with Treasure Map?

Province/Tournament, meanwhile, gives a definite swingy advantage to whoever sets one off first. Another notable difference is that you get to keep the Province and Tournament, so can set it off again.

(Mercenary feels like the odd one out in this company, for being decidedly weaker and decidedly easier to obtain.)

Is Magic Lamp really a bigger deal than Tournament and Treasure Map?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.12 seconds with 21 queries.