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[ehunt]

Apologies if this has been discussed before. Playing on an Ambassador board with limited +buy (bridge troll, but no extra actions, so max 3 buys on a turn, and then one foregoes playing Ambassador that turn). Groundskeepers split 5-5. My opponent resigned, but it isn't clear he was behind. Strategies for advancing such a board? I stupidly closed the window and have forgotten one of the kingdom cards:

Pilgrimage

Groundskeeper
Den of Sin
Bridge Troll
Advisor
Skulk
Secret Cave (+Magic Lamp/Wishes)
Wishing Well
Ambassador
Beggar

[ThetaSigma12]

I think this should go in the Game Reports subform.

[Awaclus]

I think this should go in the Game Reports subform.

That's true for half the threads on Dominion General.

[popsofctown]

It seems doubtful that actions that move the game towards ending are correct play.

If any actions that move the game toward ending ARE correct play, I would think that those actions would involve picking up two beggars when both players have brought their econ down to nothing in order to buy an Estate off 5 groundskeepers and return an estate consistently, then follow up the beggar pickups with Ambassador reveals of Estate that don't actually return the Estate and a total commitment to Province buying going forward from there.


Like I said though, I suspect the skeptic who keeps playing the 5 groundskeeper 2 copper 1 estate 1 ambassador golden deck probably still wins.

[JThorne]

Couldn't the Golden Deck player, if they're ahead on points, gradually drain the Wishing Wells and Secret Caves without ruining their deck?

[theblankman]

Couldn't the Golden Deck player, if they're ahead on points, gradually drain the Wishing Wells and Secret Caves without ruining their deck?

The golden deck of 5 groundskeeper, 2 copper, estate, ambassador, doesn't have enough money for Wishing Well or Secret Cave.  It also needs an extra buy/gain to get those other cards, or else it has to skip the estate and get no groundskeeper points on those turns.

[enfynet]

To get that golden deck, would you open Amb/Silver or Skulk/Amb? That early Gold with the bonus of hexing your opponent until your Ambassador has chewed through your deck seems like it could slow them down enough to kick off the golden deck consistently without too much contesting?

Edit: Would an Advisor be a good safety against Hexes that might junk or discard?

[aku_chi]

There's a lot of non-terminal draw, so I would be surprised if the golden deck is better than getting thin with Ambassador and then setting up alternating Ambassador + Bridge Troll terminal plays.  With non-terminal draw, you can pick up some Gold and work on the Province pile.  You can potentially disrupt their golden deck by passing a Skulk with Ambassador (whereas you can handle the extra stop cards if you have multiple buys and pick up non-terminal draw).  Towards the end of the game, you can pick up a second Bridge Troll to get get three buys each turn.  You do have to contest the Groundskeepers really aggressively.  It would be really tough to overcome the opponent's golden deck if they have 6 Groundskeepers to your 4.

[jonaskoelker]

I suspect the skeptic who keeps playing the 5 groundskeeper 2 copper 1 estate 1 ambassador golden deck probably still wins.

It's not clear to me what the turn (or pattern of turns) to be repeated is. Could you expand on that?

If I ambassador you a Copper, you can't both return 2xCopper and buy an Estate. If you return Estate and I give you a second Copper, you suddenly have 4xCopper plus one Ambassador, which is 5 stop cards, so you're no longer guaranteed to draw all 5xGroundskeeper, i.e. the deck is no longer (perfectly) golden.

If I play Skulk enough times, I can luck into trashing your Ambassador with War, I can give you differently named junk with Plague, I can limit your draw with Fear and Poverty, and maybe even trash your Groundskeeper with Locusts, thereby limiting your goldenness quite a bit.

Anyways, if you want to go for a golden deck, picking up a Gold on the way seems like a not completely crazy idea, I think.

Couldn't the Golden Deck player, if they're ahead on points, gradually drain the Wishing Wells and Secret Caves without ruining their deck?

^^ This would be the reason why.

I would be surprised if the golden deck is better than getting thin with Ambassador and then setting up alternating Ambassador + Bridge Troll terminal plays.

If over the course of two turns you buy 3xEstate, receive two junks from their Ambassador and return two of your own, you add 3 junks on net. The non-terminal draw looks to me like it can't absorb this for more than one or two pairs-of-turns. Maybe playing Bridge Troll every fourth or fifth turn is more sustainable and for that reason better? Or do you disagree, and if so why?

[aku_chi]

I suspect the skeptic who keeps playing the 5 groundskeeper 2 copper 1 estate 1 ambassador golden deck probably still wins.

It's not clear to me what the turn (or pattern of turns) to be repeated is. Could you expand on that?

My understanding of the golden deck is to return 1-2 Estates (2 if the opponent sent you one) and buy and Estate every turn for 5 VP indefinitely.

I would be surprised if the golden deck is better than getting thin with Ambassador and then setting up alternating Ambassador + Bridge Troll terminal plays.

If over the course of two turns you buy 3xEstate, receive two junks from their Ambassador and return two of your own, you add 3 junks on net. The non-terminal draw looks to me like it can't absorb this for more than one or two pairs-of-turns. Maybe playing Bridge Troll every fourth or fifth turn is more sustainable and for that reason better? Or do you disagree, and if so why?

I wouldn't buy Estates with the strategy I mentioned (except on the last turn of the game).  I'd use my Ambassador to return the junk they were sending me.  I'd buy Provinces and more draw, as needed.  If I bought (and kept) one Province every other turn with 5 Groundskeepers, I would have 11 extra VP after two turns.  The described golden deck with 5 Groundskeepers would have 10 VP after two turns.  But, the big advantage of the draw engine is being able to dictate the end of the game, potentially with a Province + 2 Estate turn for 23 VP.

[jonaskoelker]

I wouldn't buy Estates with the strategy I mentioned (except on the last turn of the game). [...] I'd buy Provinces and more draw, as needed.

Man, sometimes reading is the hardest part of discussing things online:

With non-terminal draw, you can pick up some Gold and work on the Province pile.

Thanks for the reiteration

My understanding of the golden deck is to return 1-2 Estates (2 if the opponent sent you one) and buy and Estate every turn for 5 VP indefinitely.

I think my post calls the "indefinitely" part into question. Given that my post involved writing and not reading on my part, sure I couldn't have made any mistakes?

Against your proposed strategy, where there is no terminal space for Skulk, I guess the deck really is golden though; and I should interpret "golden" as "golden (except in strategically irrelevant edge cases)"