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Author Topic: The Fool is a pity  (Read 5296 times)

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crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2017, 07:07:21 pm »
0

I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.
Werewolf would actually be simpler as an Action reading: "Choose one; +3 Cards; or each other player receives the next Hex." That also sorts out the minor wrinkle that people can react to a Werewolf being played in the Action phase, even though it's never possible for the attack component to apply then.
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Gazbag

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2017, 07:20:16 pm »
+2

I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.
Werewolf would actually be simpler as an Action reading: "Choose one; +3 Cards; or each other player receives the next Hex." That also sorts out the minor wrinkle that people can react to a Werewolf being played in the Action phase, even though it's never possible for the attack component to apply then.

The big thing with Werewolf is that you can't draw them "dead" with other Werewolfs because of it's nightness, so it wouldn't really work the same as a choose 1 action (it would as a treasure though of course).
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greybirdofprey

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2017, 10:40:36 am »
+1

I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.
Werewolf would actually be simpler as an Action reading: "Choose one; +3 Cards; or each other player receives the next Hex." That also sorts out the minor wrinkle that people can react to a Werewolf being played in the Action phase, even though it's never possible for the attack component to apply then.

The big thing with Werewolf is that you can't draw them "dead" with other Werewolfs because of it's nightness, so it wouldn't really work the same as a choose 1 action (it would as a treasure though of course).

Technically you could have "If you discard this from your hand during clean-up, each other player receives the next hex".
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2017, 09:28:28 pm »
+2

I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.
Werewolf would actually be simpler as an Action reading: "Choose one; +3 Cards; or each other player receives the next Hex." That also sorts out the minor wrinkle that people can react to a Werewolf being played in the Action phase, even though it's never possible for the attack component to apply then.

The big thing with Werewolf is that you can't draw them "dead" with other Werewolfs because of it's nightness, so it wouldn't really work the same as a choose 1 action (it would as a treasure though of course).

Technically you could have "If you discard this from your hand during clean-up, each other player receives the next hex".

You can technically do this and people (incl. me) tried things like that. It's a poor fit for an attack, though. And again, when you have Nights already, don't also have pseudo-Nights.

popsofctown

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #79 on: December 27, 2017, 09:53:10 pm »
+1

You could make Library "Draw until you have 7 cards in hand." It'd be so much simpler.
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ackmondual

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2017, 02:48:58 am »
+1

A better option would be to just not play with 4 players. ;)

Everybody knows 4-player Dominion is kind of.. meh. Dominion is balanced for two players.
Better yet... play 6 player games.  Only by surviving that will you have a newfound appreciation of 4p Dominion ;):p
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crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2017, 10:06:02 am »
+1

And again, when you have Nights already, don't also have pseudo-Nights.
I don't think anybody's advocating that. I'm certainly not advocating that. If you have the Night phase, you might as well use it, and cards like Philosopher's Stone and Scheme could be converted. Maybe even Coin of the Realm could be a Night-Reserve in this way of thinking.

However, introducing Night to the game isn't free, in terms of rules complexity, cognitive load, etc. The question is: does the benefit of the simplification of each of those cards, in aggregate, offset the cost of introducing Night?

I'm not so sure. It doesn't seem to bring as much as, or be as intuitive as, Durations, Reserve, Coin Tokens or Debt. And, unlike the hilarious fun you can have with a kingdom that's a sea of orange, or a game where your entire economy is based on coins, it turns out a hand full of Night cards isn't great, and I'm not sure a kingdom full of them is either. A kingdom with a couple of valuable Night cards in it seems to work a lot better than one with heaps of the cheap Night cards.

Playing with a few valuable Night cards runs a lot more smoothly than trying to sort out a mess of Monasteries and Night Watchmen. But then the benefit of a whole new mechanic is less when you play with fewer cards that are using it.

I'll see how I feel once I've played a few more Nocturne games, but my "Ooh" at seeing the previews and eagerness to get my hands on the set has flattened to grudgingly accepting that Night probably on balance makes more sense than achieving the same effect with strange wording on each of several individual cards.

Returning full circle to the point of my original posting, I don't think the first recommended kingdom is at all a good showcase for Nocturne. And I don't think Fool is the only problem with it.
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2017, 10:42:29 am »
0

I mean, Empires has already introduced a Treasure that's not worth any amount, not even the 0$ from HoP, so I guess that's something we could skip with "pseudo-Night"-treasures. Changeling, Vampire, Bat, Night Watchman, Exorcist Werewolf could just be Treasures like that, no issue. Cobbler and Raider do that + being a Duration. Guardian, Ghost Town and Den of Sin would have to be played on gaining them, but that's not such a big deal, either. I kind of feel they become slightly harder to grasp this way, though. Crypt would have to exclude itself, but maybe copies of it would be fine. Manastery and Devil's Workshop are where it becomes fiddly, as now you'd have Treasures that still wait for cleanup. That's meh.

I could do a mockup of a few of these and then you could decide for yourself.

crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2017, 03:45:46 pm »
+1

Monastery and Devil's Workshop are where it becomes fiddly, as now you'd have Treasures that still wait for cleanup.
Having previously suggested "+1 Action. This turn, you may trash one card when you discard it." as a non-Night version of Monastery, I've just realised the mechanic is actually very nearly a post-hoc Haggler.

So what about a Treasure worth $1 which reads "While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand." That's a slight buff in that it gives you $1 even when you don't trash a Copper from hand, but slightly tarnished by ignoring action-phase gains. Those might or might not balance out.

For me, having experience of playing with Haggler and Triumph, I know I'd find playing "Monasteroids" in advance and trashing each time I gained would be easier to keep track of than gaining first then trashing later. I'm guessing Monastery was playtested, though, and I'm in a minority. /-8
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2017, 06:24:16 pm »
+1

Monastery and Devil's Workshop are where it becomes fiddly, as now you'd have Treasures that still wait for cleanup.
Having previously suggested "+1 Action. This turn, you may trash one card when you discard it." as a non-Night version of Monastery, I've just realised the mechanic is actually very nearly a post-hoc Haggler.

So what about a Treasure worth $1 which reads "While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand." That's a slight buff in that it gives you $1 even when you don't trash a Copper from hand, but slightly tarnished by ignoring action-phase gains. Those might or might not balance out.

For me, having experience of playing with Haggler and Triumph, I know I'd find playing "Monasteroids" in advance and trashing each time I gained would be easier to keep track of than gaining first then trashing later. I'm guessing Monastery was playtested, though, and I'm in a minority. /-8

I can just say that if Monastery wasn't around, I'd consider this a nice fan card idea. It's not quite the same of course.
Edit: I don't think I want to go any deeper into this subject, though. Not outside the variants forum.

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2017, 06:45:06 pm »
+2

So what about a Treasure worth $1 which reads "While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand." That's a slight buff in that it gives you $1 even when you don't trash a Copper from hand, but slightly tarnished by ignoring action-phase gains. Those might or might not balance out.

A treasure worth $1 that lets you trash a card from your hand?

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Accatitippi

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2017, 07:00:10 pm »
+2

It might be my impression, but the amount of confusion/rule questions generated by HoP when it first came out was higher than the confusion generated by the Night mechanic.
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crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2017, 07:12:04 pm »
+1

A treasure worth $1 that lets you trash a card from your hand?
Monastery has that wrinkle whereby if you gain more cards, you can trash more cards, though. (And that can give counterintuitive outcomes. For example, with two Monasteries in play it can be worth buying an extra Copper in order to be able to trash two extra Coppers! In other news, my experience so far has been that two Monasteries turned out to be at least one too many.)

I figured the wrinkle was important enough to include in the the "Monasteroid" example of achieving something similar to Monastery without Night.Otherwise yes, sure, Goat.
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William Howard Taft

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2017, 08:10:50 pm »
0

Monastery has that wrinkle whereby if you gain more cards, you can trash more cards, though. (And that can give counterintuitive outcomes. For example, with two Monasteries in play it can be worth buying an extra Copper in order to be able to trash two extra Coppers! In other news, my experience so far has been that two Monasteries turned out to be at least one too many.

All this. Monastery being the way it is also makes gainers more attractive.
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ackmondual

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #89 on: December 29, 2017, 01:59:17 am »
0

The fact that the card's name is "Fool" makes it so wink-wink-nudge-nudge when it wrecks a game like that.
In case folks missed such cues from other such cards like Torturer and Saboteur, I'd take a guess that it was fun for the Dominion team ;)

Otherwise, they can start injecting that into the recommended sets:
Kingdom on the Edge of Forever
Dom. 1E
Spy
Witch

Intrigue 1E
Great Hall
Saboteur
Torturer

Alchemy
Alchemist
Scrying Pool

Nocturne
Fool
Vampire
Skulk

Empires
Bandit Fort
Wall

I honestly didn't think about the dynamic where Night cards make it so it is not so easy for the next player to spring off their turn from another player after the buy phase. Definitely when I play in person there is that rhythm where the next player is ready to begin their turn at around the buy phase of the preceding player.
Interesting points that folks brought up with jump starting the next turn... I've met folks who refuse to start their turns until the player before them finishes their cleanup phase (after drawing 5 new cards).  Way to foreshadow that you have an Attack coming up :D
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Gazbag

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2017, 04:53:41 pm »
+4

So I've just played some drunk games of Nocturne with my Dad - they were his first games with Nocturne cards. We played the first recommended set of Nocturne a couple of times and when I asked his thoughts on Fool he said "Taking 3 Boons is weird and slows down the game."  So there we go, it's decided.
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pacatak

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2018, 04:02:07 pm »
0

Donald needs no back up, but i play primarily with 4 players, and i love the game.  i've played over 200 games with the same group of guys, and it hasn't gotten stale yet. 

I acknowledge the fact that it tries to be balanced for 2-4. It just doesn't always succeed. Why do you reckon the 2-player option is the standard for competitive play?

It's cute that it's possible to play with 3 or 4 players, especially for casual players. But it just doesn't work nearly as well.

By the way, this is not meant as a criticism towards Dominion in general, because I still think it's the second best 2-player board/card game in the world (after chess).
People like to compete online with 2 players because it's faster and there's less luck.

I have endlessly played Dominion with 3-5, thousands of games. You aren't going to convince me that it doesn't work.

Chess is a great example of what not to do in a board game.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2018, 05:06:38 pm »
0

Donald needs no back up, but i play primarily with 4 players, and i love the game.  i've played over 200 games with the same group of guys, and it hasn't gotten stale yet. 

I don't like how especially 4 player games ruin strategies by making Action piles run way too low too quickly, making BM strategies way more viable in 4P (and I prefer engines by a long shot). I also don't like how there are only 3 Provinces per player in 4 player games.

If there were 15 Action cards per pile in 3 player games and 20 in 4 player games, as well as 16 Provinces in 4 player games, then I would be completely fine with 3/4 players. Of course, that would almost double the amount of cards in a set, which would be inconvenient as well as expensive, so the current solution kinda works. But it's not great and I strongly prefer just playing Dominion with 2 players.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2018, 05:48:26 pm »
+2

Donald needs no back up, but i play primarily with 4 players, and i love the game.  i've played over 200 games with the same group of guys, and it hasn't gotten stale yet. 

I don't like how especially 4 player games ruin strategies by making Action piles run way too low too quickly, making BM strategies way more viable in 4P (and I prefer engines by a long shot). I also don't like how there are only 3 Provinces per player in 4 player games.

If there were 15 Action cards per pile in 3 player games and 20 in 4 player games, as well as 16 Provinces in 4 player games, then I would be completely fine with 3/4 players. Of course, that would almost double the amount of cards in a set, which would be inconvenient as well as expensive, so the current solution kinda works. But it's not great and I strongly prefer just playing Dominion with 2 players.

I think that's the aspect of 3-4 player games I like the most. Resources are scarce and you may not be able to build what you want to build.

Sometimes I wish the 2-player game had more resource contention.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2018, 05:47:30 am »
+1

Donald needs no back up, but i play primarily with 4 players, and i love the game.  i've played over 200 games with the same group of guys, and it hasn't gotten stale yet. 

I don't like how especially 4 player games ruin strategies by making Action piles run way too low too quickly, making BM strategies way more viable in 4P (and I prefer engines by a long shot). I also don't like how there are only 3 Provinces per player in 4 player games.

If there were 15 Action cards per pile in 3 player games and 20 in 4 player games, as well as 16 Provinces in 4 player games, then I would be completely fine with 3/4 players. Of course, that would almost double the amount of cards in a set, which would be inconvenient as well as expensive, so the current solution kinda works. But it's not great and I strongly prefer just playing Dominion with 2 players.

I think that's the aspect of 3-4 player games I like the most. Resources are scarce and you may not be able to build what you want to build.

Sometimes I wish the 2-player game had more resource contention.

If you can't build what you would build in a 2-player game with the same cards - that is, an engine - you will be forced to build some kind of half-assed BM-ish or 'good stuff' deck instead just because there aren't enough cards. That's not only demotivating, it also increases the influence of luck, since BM strategies are less reliant on skill than engine strategies.

The first game board in base Dominion - Village, Smithy, Market, Cellar, Militia, Moat, Workshop, Remodel, Mine, Woodcutter(old)/Merchant(new) - is a nice engine board with 2 players, but a mediocre BM board with 4 players, since there are not enough villages. Of course, even with 2 players you will be fighting for the Village split, but with 4 players everyone is guaranteed to have too few Villages to build the engine. No wonder the Silver test became a thing if everyone was playing 4P all the time.

Remember the 4-player Base campaigns on Goko/MF where Council Room-BM was the solution more often than not. The only way to beat those levels was to try them a million times until the stars align and you get perfect shuffle luck.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:48:47 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2018, 10:41:12 am »
+3

Not everybody loves engines to death. Not everything that isn't an engine is Big Money. The space inbetween is much more interesting than people give it credit for and the assumption that it was tiny is pushed by people who barely have experience with those games.

I will agree though that the first edition of Base lacked support for anything except those extremes and perhaps Gardens. But Dominion isn't Base anymore. Not even Base is.

Holger

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2018, 09:54:23 am »
0



I'd be really interested to hear anyone else's experiences. /-8
As you can see in the secret history, I struggled to make sure that Fool did not slow games down too much, after having bad experiences with it. I blamed those games on the ability to Throne Room it, and as you can see that's no longer possible; you can't even play a Village and then two of them. However your experience suggests that the real problem is just, getting three Boons when you're new enough to the expansion that the Boons don't come automatically. The Boons themselves struggle to be simple and not slow things down even for new-to-the-set players. Three at once and ordering them is a bunch of that though.

So I mean, I think you simply experienced an actual problem; Fool is too slow when you're not used to the Boons. Everyone starts out not used to them, so it's too slow period. It's a bummer that it's in the first recommended set. We had the problem but it always seemed to be repeated plays in one turn that were the problem.

May I ask why you chose such a complicated (IMO) nerf-boost (adding LitW) to fix that problem? Simply adding a "once per turn" clause (like Outpost and Fortune) would have fixed that problem, too, and would not have created an incentive for other players to join the bandwagon as soon as one or two players buys Fool, as Asper decribes in his OP. (Or one could increase Fool's cost, or even restrict it to receiving two Boons unconditionally.)


I admit I haven't played with it myself yet, but both Fool and LitW sound very strong "on paper" when comparing several Boon combinations to printed cards:
  • Fool receiving the three "vanilla" Boons (Field, Forest, Sea) is a Grand Market. (Field+Forest alone is already a Silver plus a Market Square)
  • Fool receiving Field, Flame, Sea is better than Junk Dealer.
  • Fool receiving Flame, Mountain, Sea is similar to JoaT(and probably a bit better)
(Of course, the randomness weakens Fool substantially, especially not knowing whether it's nonterminal in advance seriously hampers GM and JD.)

  • LitW receiving Field is like having a Village and an Oasis in your starting hand.
  • LitW receiving Forest is Market Square+Oasis.
  • LitW receiving Sea is Fugitive.
  • LitW receiving Wind is Warehouse.


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LastFootnote

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2018, 12:06:32 pm »
+4

I admit I haven't played with it myself yet, but both Fool and LitW sound very strong "on paper" when comparing several Boon combinations to printed cards:
  • Fool receiving the three "vanilla" Boons (Field, Forest, Sea) is a Grand Market. (Field+Forest alone is already a Silver plus a Market Square)
  • Fool receiving Field, Flame, Sea is better than Junk Dealer.
  • Fool receiving Flame, Mountain, Sea is similar to JoaT(and probably a bit better)
(Of course, the randomness weakens Fool substantially, especially not knowing whether it's nonterminal in advance seriously hampers GM and JD.)

  • LitW receiving Field is like having a Village and an Oasis in your starting hand.
  • LitW receiving Forest is Market Square+Oasis.
  • LitW receiving Sea is Fugitive.
  • LitW receiving Wind is Warehouse.

I think having not played with it yourself, maybe you should before making all these claims? A lot of them are misleading and some are just false. The big thing of course is that you underestimate how much the randomness weakens both Fool and Lost in the Woods. Yeah, receiving Field from Lost in the Woods is like having a Village and an Oasis in your starting hand (and Field is probably the strongest Boon across the board), but you don't know that you're going to get Field when you're deciding whether to discard a card. Your Sea and Wind comparisons are actually flat-out false. Receiving Sea is like a card that's [+1 Card, +1 Action, then discard a card, then +1 Card] and then Wind is like [+1 Card, +1 Action, discard a card, +2 Cards, discard 2 cards]. The first is far weaker than Fugitive and the second is at least slightly weaker than Warehouse. And again, they're both weak because you can't plan for them.

EDIT: I guess I should say, having played with Fool a lot, Lost in the Woods doesn't feel strong to me. I mean it's fantastic in really sloggy games, but marginal in a lot of decks.

For all you Fool haters out there, I'll take this moment to apologize for Fool. Sorry! Probably if it hadn't been for me, Fool wouldn't be in the set. I was constantly fighting to save it, because I really enjoy the "receive 3 Boons" effect. I regret that now, when so many people are complaining about it. Thanks to this thread, I am constantly kicking myself every damn day. In my defense, I did suggest "if this is the first time you played a Fool this turn", and Donald wasn't keen on it at the time. Although today I'd probably suggest making it a one-shot, which I pooh-poohed when Donald suggested it. That would (usually) put a real hard limit on how much it happened in a game, and you'd still get the experience. But of course it's an experience that this hardcore crowd doesn't seem keen on anyway.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 12:13:29 pm by LastFootnote »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2018, 12:09:53 pm »
+2

I enjoy Fool and find it both a fun and mildly strategic card. Thanks for keeping it around, LFN.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2018, 12:15:56 pm »
+1

For all you Fool haters out there, I'll take this moment to apologize for Fool. Sorry! Probably if it hadn't been for me, Fool wouldn't be in the set.

I've only played with it once in person (many times online), but I don't mind it.

I kind of like having a card that goads you into buying it because of a small benefit your opponent is getting every turn.
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