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Author Topic: The Fool is a pity  (Read 5477 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2017, 08:13:20 am »
+1

But you play Durations at the same time as other Actions (or whatever) in the same way.
Yes, Duration cards and Night cards are different in all of the ways they are different. I do not think they are the same in ways that they are different. The point to Duration cards (originally) was to do something now and later, so they are phrased to do that. The point to Night cards was to happen at a particular time, so you play them at that time. Both types of cards are implemented in the simplest possible way.
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faust

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2017, 09:01:03 am »
0

Quote
To be fair, it's also more interesting gameplay-wise. (Even though Go still has an edge-case move that I would try to avoid.)

Which edge case are you referring to?  the entire set of relevant go rules fits on half a page, and all the edge cases fit on the other half of the page.
ko isn't an edge-case, it's a core part of the game
triple ko is not something you have to try to avoid, because it is obscenely rare. 
I've only managed it once, and it saved me from a loss, and it took a lot of work to setup, so it felt triumphant.
But ko is an edge case. In that the game designer did not think "oh, this would be a cool mechanic" but rather, "crap, this has an infinite loop. Now what can I do to break it?". Go rules are "you may place your stone anywhere where there is no other stone already, except for this very strange particular case" - at least that's what it looks like to beginners. Having such exceptions is never a good thing.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Accatitippi

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2017, 09:58:12 am »
+2

I like Fool.
I like the implications of letting your opponent get the only one. I like the hot-potato Lost in the Woods and wish there were a couple more positive states in Nocturne. The three boons are nice, and unlike the other Fates you're pretty much guaranteed to get something nice.
I think that, paradoxically, the fact that it's coupled with Lucky Coin is what makes it so slow. In games in which you don't need to buy Silver, you are more likely to get Fool, even if you don't really need it. So a lot of the time you end up getting Fool because without Silver, it's the best thing to get at 3.
It's a slowish card, and everybody got it without really needing it, so everybody at the table is soured towards it. A bit like Scrying Pool, but worse if you don't know the Boons, and better if you do. And you generally want SP, while you get Fool for lack of better purchase options.

Or to make another example, Great Hall with Lucky Coin as Heirloom would be bought much more often.
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enfynet

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2017, 10:15:40 am »
+1

Is Fool any more random, fiddly, or slow than Black Market?
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crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2017, 11:19:27 am »
0

Is Fool any more random, fiddly, or slow than Black Market?
Personally, I've never tried Black Market. A couple of friends do have it, and I mean to some day.

My hunch is that a play of Black Market will likely be as slow as a play of Fool, but it might advance the game more.
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markusin

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2017, 11:32:54 am »
0

Or to make another example, Great Hall with Lucky Coin as Heirloom would be bought much more often.
You might be right, though it would have been cool if Great Hall just gave you a Silver if you bought it, or perhaps if it came with a $2 cost card when you bought it.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2017, 01:13:04 pm »
0

I've played competitive bughouse chess, as part of a chess festival in Qatar this year. My partner and I won the tournament. :D

My take on bughouse is that it's fun to have as a side-event at a chess tournament; it probably wouldn't be so good as the main event.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2017, 01:29:30 pm »
+1

I played my first 3-player Fool game the other day. I was all set to ignore the card like usual, but then I saw how awesome it was for the other two players to get 3 Boons every couple turns. Seems like once the other 2 players get one, you almost have to get it yourself.
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markusin

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2017, 01:53:33 pm »
+4

I played my first 3-player Fool game the other day. I was all set to ignore the card like usual, but then I saw how awesome it was for the other two players to get 3 Boons every couple turns. Seems like once the other 2 players get one, you almost have to get it yourself.

Yeah, it's a total groupthink card. It's often foolish to get Fool, but it works out if another player gets it, and then it becomes foolish to not get Fool.

It's like the entire card is designed to be an elaborate prank or inside joke.
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Donald X.

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2017, 04:48:06 pm »
+4

It's like the entire card is designed to be an elaborate prank or inside joke.
It was just, "receive 3 Boons," and then tweaked until I mistakenly thought it was no longer a problem. The name is referring to the classic fairy tale character, the youngest son who sets out to seek his fortune and things work out for him without him doing anything clever.
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JThorne

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2017, 05:02:00 pm »
+5

Additional note: Online, the message "[player name] plays a Fool" never gets old.

I almost always skip it. I love that Fool comes with a "lucky coin" that junks your deck with super-coppers. I love playing against opponents who play the coin every time they draw it and never trash it. (Also, props to Changeling. Again. For making Lucky Coin good.)

And while some Night cards aren't worth the extra mechanic (it probably wouldn't be worth creating the "Night" phase just for gain-to-hand durations) I really like the concept of cards that only work as night cards because they care about what you did on your turn, such as Monastery, Devil's Workshop, Changeling and Crypt. The others, well, would work just about as well as actions, making their "Night" designation often a drawback for the many, many cards that care about "Action" cards.

IRL players who plunk money down, grab their buys and clean up all in one fast scoop and complain that Night is slowing that down could probably benefit from slowing down their play anyway. Between durations, reserves, clean-up triggers, and just, plain looking at the cards in the play area for a second before scooping and making a mental picture of what's left in the deck, there's something to be said for playing deliberately. I rather like a night card at the end of a good turn. It's like a satisfying terminal punctuation mark at the end of a well-constructed sentence
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2017, 11:21:13 pm »
+8

.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2017, 04:23:35 am »
+6

.

It is said that JS Bach's sons, while he was taking a post-lunch nap, would improvise a tune on the clavichord and ended it on the major 7th dominant chord. Bach would roll around in his bed for minutes until he would jump up, rush to the instrument and complete the cadence.
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crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2017, 01:27:25 pm »
0

I rather like a night card at the end of a good turn. It's like a satisfying terminal punctuation mark at the end of a well-constructed sentence
However, by that analogy it could be argued that buying is the full stop to the turn, and Night cards are that annoying sequence of "PS" "PPS" ... from somebody who doesn't know how to structure a letter properly.

After what's gone before in this thread, I feel I need to make explicit that I'm not quite that down on Night cards. And I had a good game yesterday in which we used Werewolf, Raider and Ghost (Cemetery/Haunted Mirror); sparing use of powerful Night cards seems to be a lot more fun than piles of the cheap stuff.
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JThorne

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2017, 04:53:10 pm »
+5

Quote
sparing use of powerful Night cards

And this is perhaps my favorite thing about Night cards, and about Nocturne in general (for example, the proliferation of Gold-gainers.)

They're non-spammable. You don't want too many, but used sparingly are very effective. Anything that increases the subtle complexity of deckbuilding decisions is a big plus in my book. Too many games are decided by who wins the X split. Nocturne makes that less of a problem. Overall, an excellent addition to full random.
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2017, 06:21:19 pm »
+2

It's not a real solution, but you could reduce the percentage of players who run into the "Fool while unfamiliar with Boons" problem by replacing Fool with another Fate card in those recommended sets for future prints. Druid seems like a nice one to start, then have another regular Fate card for second, and introduce Fool as late as possible. It'll offer some kind of "learning curve" to players who look into the recommended sets for guidance.

Edit: I guess I formulated this in a way that makes it sound like this was some great new idea, but obviously it's just chiming in to agree, yeah, that could already help.

Donald X.

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #66 on: December 23, 2017, 07:07:28 pm »
+3

It's not a real solution, but you could reduce the percentage of players who run into the "Fool while unfamiliar with Boons" problem by replacing Fool with another Fate card in those recommended sets for future prints.
I think it's the move, at least for the first recommended set, but that change would be ~2 years away; a lot of copies are printed at once.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2017, 03:36:51 am »
0

Nights are far closer to Treasures or Treasure Durations so I don't know why Actions with +1 action is being thrown out as the default thing. Treasures share nights' inability to cooperate with draw to X engines and to be eligible to be drawn dead.  If you made nights treasures, though, you'd still create an unnecessary gap between when the card is played and when you process its effect (a gap that is necessary for action durations with two effects).  And it would make the nights interact with Brigand, PShip, bandit, mint, mine, tragic hero, page, Black market, storyteller, and bank in ways you are likely not to want as a designer.
The actions implementation would mix the combinations with dead draw.  But it's really cool to be allowed to buy stuff your dead draw deck that's not almost vanilla.  Which can let you transition into engine easier.  And now that engines are increasingly the way to play dominion I want a variety of interesting different routes that get there.  I'll take the additional 8 minutes of learning the rules. 


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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2017, 05:47:21 am »
+1

There are some Night cards, like Werewolf, Vampire and Exorcist, that could be Treasures like Horn of Plenty. But many can't. Ghost Town and similar cards for example would just become really confusing.

popsofctown

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2017, 12:54:35 pm »
0

It is definitely more confusing than adding a phase, I'm team night phase, but I don't think it's awful.  "Treasure duration: when you play this, at the start of your next turn, +1 card + 1 action.  When you gain this, play it.
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J Reggie

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2017, 01:07:15 pm »
+4

I think we're all forgetting the most important thing, which is that new types are really cool!

Chappy7

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2017, 11:46:47 am »
0

There are some Night cards, like Werewolf, Vampire and Exorcist, that could be Treasures like Horn of Plenty. But many can't. Ghost Town and similar cards for example would just become really confusing.

True, but then you'd need a lot of different names of cards and the theme would be really difficult.  I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.  That makes no sense.  I love the night phase and I love how thematic it is.
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2017, 03:14:01 pm »
+2

There are some Night cards, like Werewolf, Vampire and Exorcist, that could be Treasures like Horn of Plenty. But many can't. Ghost Town and similar cards for example would just become really confusing.

True, but then you'd need a lot of different names of cards and the theme would be really difficult.  I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.  That makes no sense.  I love the night phase and I love how thematic it is.

Obviously nobody would make a Treasure called "Werewolf", but that doesn't mean that there isn't a good name for a card that does what Werewolf does while being a Treasure. It's also not like the name "Werewolf" wouldn't work with any other card, either. But there are cards in Nocturne that don't work (nearly as well) as Treasures, so you have to introduce a new mechanic anyway if you want those. Why not use the new mechanic for some more cards, even if they don't abolutely have to use it? It's already there. Better than having an expansion with 2 mechanics that achieve basically the same thing.

If Night cards didn't exist already and you were to make an expansion with only a single card that would work as a Night card, but also as a Treasure, it's the other way around, simply because the new stuff you want to do isn't worth the overhead of introducing a new type. You'd just make that card a Treasure worth 0$ and call it "Horn of Plenty".

Chappy7

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2017, 03:25:24 pm »
+1

There are some Night cards, like Werewolf, Vampire and Exorcist, that could be Treasures like Horn of Plenty. But many can't. Ghost Town and similar cards for example would just become really confusing.

True, but then you'd need a lot of different names of cards and the theme would be really difficult.  I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.  That makes no sense.  I love the night phase and I love how thematic it is.

Obviously nobody would make a Treasure called "Werewolf", but that doesn't mean that there isn't a good name for a card that does what Werewolf does while being a Treasure. It's also not like the name "Werewolf" wouldn't work with any other card, either. But there are cards in Nocturne that don't work (nearly as well) as Treasures, so you have to introduce a new mechanic anyway if you want those. Why not use the new mechanic for some more cards, even if they don't abolutely have to use it? It's already there. Better than having an expansion with 2 mechanics that achieve basically the same thing.

If Night cards didn't exist already and you were to make an expansion with only a single card that would work as a Night card, but also as a Treasure, it's the other way around, simply because the new stuff you want to do isn't worth the overhead of introducing a new type. You'd just make that card a Treasure worth 0$ and call it "Horn of Plenty".
Yes, I said you'd need a lot of different names.  I understand that.  I just like that they are the way they are as night cards rather than trying to find lots of different treasure-y names.   I'm pretty sure we're agreeing? I was just saying that it seems difficult to come up with that many treasure names. 
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2017, 05:08:55 pm »
+1

There are some Night cards, like Werewolf, Vampire and Exorcist, that could be Treasures like Horn of Plenty. But many can't. Ghost Town and similar cards for example would just become really confusing.

True, but then you'd need a lot of different names of cards and the theme would be really difficult.  I mean, you can't have things like werewolf and vampire as treasures.  That makes no sense.  I love the night phase and I love how thematic it is.

Obviously nobody would make a Treasure called "Werewolf", but that doesn't mean that there isn't a good name for a card that does what Werewolf does while being a Treasure. It's also not like the name "Werewolf" wouldn't work with any other card, either. But there are cards in Nocturne that don't work (nearly as well) as Treasures, so you have to introduce a new mechanic anyway if you want those. Why not use the new mechanic for some more cards, even if they don't abolutely have to use it? It's already there. Better than having an expansion with 2 mechanics that achieve basically the same thing.

If Night cards didn't exist already and you were to make an expansion with only a single card that would work as a Night card, but also as a Treasure, it's the other way around, simply because the new stuff you want to do isn't worth the overhead of introducing a new type. You'd just make that card a Treasure worth 0$ and call it "Horn of Plenty".
Yes, I said you'd need a lot of different names.  I understand that.  I just like that they are the way they are as night cards rather than trying to find lots of different treasure-y names.   I'm pretty sure we're agreeing? I was just saying that it seems difficult to come up with that many treasure names.
Yes, we agree that the night type is better than weird Treasure things. My point was just that IF the mechanic you wanted were Treasures, you'd probably just make the set finance themed instead of Night themed.
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