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Author Topic: The Fool is a pity  (Read 3841 times)

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O

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2018, 12:28:22 pm »
+5

Card comparison ("Village is just a two necropolises plus a smithy, minus the five hundred edge cases") always suck, but they especially suck when comparing to boons.

Take Warehouse. Warehouse is in your hand. This is -1 to your hand size before even having made the decision of whether or not to play warehouse. You don't get to choose not to have -1 card.

Lost in the Woods is optional. If you have 5 cards you like, you don't have to roll. So if you do get the warehouse-but-not-really-warehouse effect in the Wind's Gift, it's on the precondition that you had a card in your hand that you didn't mind pitching. This is a fundamentally different scenario and no amount of card comparisons can fix that. 
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Gazbag

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2018, 12:36:22 pm »
0

I think I'm totally okay with Fool now. The speed of play isn't an issue online at all and after a few games with Boons it isn't too bad IRL either. I also don't mind the swing factor of it too much anymore either, which I think is what most "hardcore" or "competitive" players dislike about it. It's such a weak card in general that buying one when your opponent doesn't follow and winning because of it feels good and games where both players go for it were probably just going to be down to shuffles anyway so I can get over that too. I also enjoy Lucky Coin a lot, it's kind of like Cursed Gold except it's actually an interesting decision on whether you want to play Lucky Coin. Lucky Coin money decks can be fearsome!

I think Pixie and Blessed Village will end up being the most hated Fates cards, by "hardcore" players at least. Pixie is incredibly swingy, an early Flame or Earth can be game winning. Blessed Village just forces people to buy it because it's a village and then one player might just get a sizeable advantage over the other based how the Boons go.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2018, 01:27:38 pm »
+4

I recently spectated a game between DG and amoffett11 where both players Princed a Fool.  That was hilarious (and effective).
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Accatitippi

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2018, 01:57:31 pm »
+1

I do not dislike Fool. It's not even close to being one of the cards that I actually find annoying to play with (namely Cultist, Rebuild, Possession, Smugglers, Save, Scrying Pool, King's Court).

It does have a very steep learning curve, though, requiring you to learn 16 cards during the course of the first game with it, 12 of which are not openly available for you to read at all times. That's twice as much as the Castles, which are definitely not considered a newbie-friendly card. No other Fate card churns through the Boons that fast, and revealing one boon at the time, they require less imput from the player. Normally boons happen to you, but with Fool you really have to make a bit more effort to understand in what order to play the three you drew.

I've already said it elsewhere, but I think that the coupling of Lucky coin and Fool was unfortunate. It makes players more likely to get an early Fool even when they'd usually not, just because Silver is so much less attractive. This makes almost every Fool game a Fool game.

I think Lost in the Woods is definitely the most fun part about Fool. If they told me that Fool was being magically errataed into "If you don't have LitW, +2 coins, and take LitW", I would not object.
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Donald X.

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2018, 05:02:11 pm »
+1

In my defense, I did suggest "if this is the first time you played a Fool this turn", and Donald wasn't keen on it at the time.
We did test multiple things that did that, e.g. "If you've already played a Fool this turn, do X, otherwise..." Among the many many Fools tested.

Obv. it was my call, it was my fault. I see it as a leadership problem; I had to be willing to make an unpopular decision, that would never be vindicated.
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Donald X.

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2018, 05:05:28 pm »
+2

I do not dislike Fool. It's not even close to being one of the cards that I actually find annoying to play with (namely Cultist, Rebuild, Possession, Smugglers, Save, Scrying Pool, King's Court).
Smugglers, Save, and King's Court are all pretty sweet as-is. I would drop the attack from Scrying Pool, and use the fix someone here suggested of having Cultist either play another or hand out Ruins, your choice. I would not do Rebuild and Possession; I don't think I would try to fix them up, I would just abandon those concepts.

How much of a problem a card is though depends a lot on what kind of players you have, and whether or not they're online. For a typical casual group IRL, Rebuild isn't a problem at all. It's some card, they might buy it or not, it doesn't dominate. You have to say, no no guys, read these threads, to cause a problem. Whereas Fool makes that group's first Nocturne game painfully slow.
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Accatitippi

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2018, 05:29:02 pm »
0

I do not dislike Fool. It's not even close to being one of the cards that I actually find annoying to play with (namely Cultist, Rebuild, Possession, Smugglers, Save, Scrying Pool, King's Court).
Smugglers, Save, and King's Court are all pretty sweet as-is. I would drop the attack from Scrying Pool, and use the fix someone here suggested of having Cultist either play another or hand out Ruins, your choice. I would not do Rebuild and Possession; I don't think I would try to fix them up, I would just abandon those concepts.

How much of a problem a card is though depends a lot on what kind of players you have, and whether or not they're online. For a typical casual group IRL, Rebuild isn't a problem at all. It's some card, they might buy it or not, it doesn't dominate. You have to say, no no guys, read these threads, to cause a problem. Whereas Fool makes that group's first Nocturne game painfully slow.

I'm not saying that Smugglers, Save and KC should be any different. Of course you cannot please everybody.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2018, 05:42:14 pm »
0

I haven't really had the problem where Fool is painfully slow, although part of it is that I saw this thread, and have been vetoing Fool for less experienced play groups.  Fool seems to be fine outside that context.  My main issue is that I keep on forgetting I have Lost in the Woods.

Over break we did play one game that was so slow that we all agreed to quit.  The culprit?  Haunted Woods.  Heh, my fault for playing one every single turn.  I think they just didn't know how to counter it (Forum was right there!), but regardless of the reason, it was still a thing that happened.  Dominion enjoys such a wide range of variation, I think it's inevitable that some kingdoms don't work with some play groups.  Resigning and quitting are valid options.
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2018, 05:59:27 pm »
+2

Fool gets better and better once you get used to it. It's not a Rebuild that breaks the game, and it has its fans for a reason. And even players who don't like Fool itself can be happy it's around, because it gives us an Heirloom (my personal favourite, actually). Sure, the card's not perfect, but nobody can strike gold 100% of the time. I feel that the more people get used to the Boons, the less will it matter.

crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2018, 06:16:51 pm »
0

For all you Fool haters out there, I'll take this moment to apologize for Fool. Sorry! Probably if it hadn't been for me, Fool wouldn't be in the set.
Gosh. I misconstrued your earlier apology. I thought you were only claiming responsibility for it being in the first recommended kingdom!

These things happen, I guess...
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Asper

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2018, 10:33:58 pm »
0

I think Pixie and Blessed Village will end up being the most hated Fates cards, by "hardcore" players at least. Pixie is incredibly swingy, an early Flame or Earth can be game winning. Blessed Village just forces people to buy it because it's a village and then one player might just get a sizeable advantage over the other based how the Boons go.
But games with Pixie have Goat, either way.
I'm less of a fan of Blessed Village, but mostly because it has this timing thing going on. I guess that is meaningful to make sure nobody gets a useless Boon, though.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2018, 01:03:11 pm »
0

Of course you cannot please everybody.

Of course you can, you just need enough hitmen.
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ackmondual

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2018, 05:39:09 pm »
0

If you play enough, players will get familiar enough with Fool and the 12 Boons such that gaming time is reduced again.  Every now and then, it's nice to have some nice, "long term cards".  Cards that are fun when you exceed a longer term usage of it.
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Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

ackmondual

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2018, 03:27:56 am »
0

It seems swapping the presets in the rulebook could've been in order?  It seems like Midnight would take less time if Fool really is THAT big a culprit.  At the very least, swap out Fool from Dusk with Druid.  That way, you only need to deal with 3 Boons at a time.  Blessed Village doles out Boons, but at least that's more "traditional", getting away from all that "State nonsense" that really seems to trip up newbies much harder than anticipated.

Dusk:
Blessed Village, Cobbler, Den of Sin, Faithful Hound, Fool,
Monastery, Night Watchman, Shepherd, Tormentor, Tragic Hero


Midnight:
Conclave, Crypt, Cursed Village, Devil's Workshop, Druid (The Swamp's Gift, The Flame's Gift, The Wind's Gift),
Exorcist, Leprechaun, Pooka, Raider, Secret Cave
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 03:30:28 am by ackmondual »
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Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

crj

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Re: The Fool is a pity
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2018, 11:38:34 am »
0

I'd agree that the Boons from Blessed Village are far more tolerable. After all, they only occur ten times in the entire game, unless something odd happens.
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