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Author Topic: What to Prioritize?  (Read 3432 times)

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eHalcyon

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What to Prioritize?
« on: February 23, 2012, 01:47:27 am »
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I don't really have much time to play on isotropic (and when I do, it's just with friends) but I tend to spend spare minutes zipping through games on Androminion.  I'm still fairly amateur but I feel like I know enough to come up with a decent plan on most boards, if one exists.

Playing on Androminion, I ran into a set where I really didn't know what to prioritize:

Scrying Pool, Philosopher's Stone, Familiar, Swindler, Tunnel, Tournament, Margrave, Library, Venture, Adventurer

Library doesn't seem all that great to me here.  It would sort of counter Margrave, but the only source of +Actions is Trusty Steed so you can't turn it into an engine.  Similarly, I don't really like Swindler here because I feel Margrave and Adventurer are both better to have as terminals.

Venture and Adventurer looks like a really fun combo, and Tunnel looks really attractive due to Margrave, Venture and Adventurer; it could actually end up a fairly consistent source of Gold.  Throw in Philo Stone and there is a very real chance of double Province turns.  Margrave would be the main source of +Buy but it's terminal.  There is also Princess, where the price reduction effect would make those big money turns even sweeter.

Since I think this is more of a Money kind of board, Scrying Pool doesn't seem all that great.  I still want the Potion though, because Familiar will be important and Philo Stone can be great later on.  If I'm unfortunate enough to hit 2p instead of 3p, Scrying Pool is an alright consolation prize since it helps power up Philo Stone and it is a cantrip at worst.

All that said though -- I have no idea what to prioritize.  On a 4/3 split, Potion/Silver?  Would Swindler actually be a decent opening?  I can see Swindler being useful to turn Coppers into Curses even before someone gets Familiar, and also potentially changing Familiar to Philo Stone early (and back again late, when Curses are out).  I still think Silver is better though.

On 3, Tunnel or Silver?  I suppose there's no point grabbing a Tunnel until the opponent picks up a Margrave or you have an Adventurer or Venture.

On 5, should you take Margrave or Venture?  One Margrave and then Ventures after that?  Two Margraves?

On 6, Gold or Adventurer?

How many Familiars should be bought and when should I switch over to Philo Stone?

Given the synergy between Adventurer and Venture, and the fact that Philo Stone can be worth much more than Gold, is there a point when you'd rather not reveal Tunnel for Gold?

And finally, when you manage to align Tournament with a Province, would you prefer Princess or Trusty Steed?  Or Maybe even Bag of Gold to get more cards in the discard for Philo Stone, and to top-deck Gold for Aventurer/Venture?  I believe Diadem would be useless given lack of +Actions cards, and Followers would be redundant with Familiar and Margrave.

A lot of questions, I know, but I'd be really interested in insights.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:51:12 am by eHalcyon »
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jimjam

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 02:12:21 am »
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Opening definitely has to be Potion/Swindler (5/2 is not good, I'd probably go potion/-); what other terminal would you use? Swapping their Potion for Tourney in the beginning would be gg, if you're lucky.
Venture/Tunnel isn't that efficient imo. Tourney prizes I don't think are that useful here, though it's good for the money, since all those curses and familiars mean province blocking is less likely. I guess I'd prefer Stone over Scrying Pool.
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jonts26

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 02:16:37 am »
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I think your analysis is really pretty good here. One note to keep in mind is that this board is EXTREMELY swingy. One of the swingiest I've seen. Tournament, Swindler, Familiar, Tunnel are all cards which can be quite high variance.

There are a lot of small synergies between several cards but I would say try to focus on just one thing and stick too it.

The real question I like to ask whenever there's a curse giver on the board is 'do I have to buy it or is there a strategy which can ignore it?'. Familiar is a pretty strong card but it's also a little slower than a lot of it's competition. And there are a few cards here which let you deal with junk pretty well but the best would probably be Adventurer/Venture/Tunnel. If you wanted to go this route, ignore potions altogether and just get your economy up and running ASAP. Don't bother with tunnels for a while. And no, there's really no reason not to reveal a tunnel here if you have the chance. You want all the cash you can get.

Tournaments are going to be pretty hard to line up with provinces, though you can likely over-invest in them a bit because provinces will be slow getting bought.

That said, I still think I'd go Familiars here, because Philo Stone will make a nice late game card and there is a consolation prize in scrying pool. And if the other guy doesnt go familiars, you might be able to build up a decent action density to get some use from the card. So the final question is what to open. It's important to realize that if you open potion, which you want to do, you really cant expect to hit $5 anytime soon. So it's unlikely you get to margrave as your terminal. And with the curses flying around, margrave loses a lot of luster anyway. So Potion/Swindler is probably the best opening.

Mostly though, I think on this board the best advice is get lucky.
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DStu

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 02:37:09 am »
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So first question is if you can ignore the Curse. Familiar is usually little expensive to get, but there are 2 other Potioncards, so that's not a problem.  There is no trasher, which makes the Curse hard to fight. Only way to mild the impact of the Curse is Venture/Adventurer, which combos additionally with Tunnel

That way would be something like: Venture, Tunnel, BigMoney, X ,
where X probably is Margrave or Swindler or both. Maybe add Tournament, but against Familiar the Followers lost much of is pain, and the other prices are not so great for this deck. Maybe BagOfGold, and of course to deny the prices to the opponent.

The other way is going for the Potion. You obviously want the Familiar than, and I think there are two ways to go from there. First, falling back to BigMoney, you can take the PhilStone then, and otherwise play like the first one: Familiar, PhilStone, Venture, Tunnel, X

Both Tunnels have the problem that there is lots of money floating around, all Coppers stay in the game (unless swindled) so Venture/Tunnel might sound interesting but might not fire as often as one thinks.


Third way is Scrying Pool. It can take up Familiars, and Tournaments as cantrips. You still don't want many terminals, as you can only play one (or two with TrustySteed). But especially if you are not followed to the Familiar the Pool should give you large hands quickly, it should be easy to colllide Tournaments with Provinces. This would
Familiar, ScryingPool, Tournament, Swindler
Here the problem might be that you rely on the Tournaments to get you money, as it's the only non-terminal that gives money and there are no Villages.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 02:55:48 am »
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I was thinking that Margrave would be good primarily for the +Buy, since with Adventurer/Venture/Philo Stone and Gold from Tunnels, I was hitting $12+ fairly consistently.  Granted, this was against a not-so-great AI.  But the Margrave detour would be slower than just getting Adventurer/Venture running... so I see the merit of choosing Swindler.  Besides, with all the treasure and deck cycling it might be hard to line up Margrave with lots of cash.

If you end up with 5p or 6p, what would you buy?  Philo Stone, Adventurer, Venture?  What's a good number of Adventurers to have, if playing that strategy?
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ecq

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 02:55:26 pm »
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So many good cards, but they're almost all traps.

The terminal draws clash with Familiar and Tournament.  Tunnel, Tournament, and Library all counter Margrave.  Curses, no trashing, and no reliable money-giving actions makes Scrying Pool weak.  No trashing and having Potion-cost cards messes with Venture.  The presence of Swindler messes with a few things, especially Tournament with Potion on the board.  There's very little to connect Tournaments with Provinces.

The board is pretty gross and luck-driven; I'd have a stroke by turn 6.

My gut says BM + Library is the way to go, probably opening with Swindler / Silver (especially if the other guy opens with Potion).  Don't worry about Tunnel unless the other guy is foolishly grabbing Margrave.  Get Tournament if there's not much cursing happening, going for Trusty Steed first.
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Epoch

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 04:05:12 pm »
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You can NOT ignore Familiar on this board.  You have to open Potion/Swindler and hope that your Potion does not get Swindled.  Then, basically:

Familiar when you get a chance.
Phil Stone if you're at $3-5+P and there's no point in Familiars.
Scrying pool if you're at exactly $2+P
Silver at $3
Tournament at $4
Venture at $5
Gold at $6
Standard greening rules, just using Tunnel for its VP value, not trying to combo it.
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jonts26

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 04:07:14 pm »
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Don't worry about Tunnel unless the other guy is foolishly grabbing Margrave.  Get Tournament if there's not much cursing happening, going for Trusty Steed first.

Pretty sure if not much cursing is happening, followers should be a lot better. It's going to happen pretty late in the game to care about tunnel discards and the 2 point swing should be much stronger than whatever Trusty Steed gives you.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 04:17:19 pm »
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You can NOT ignore Familiar on this board.  You have to open Potion/Swindler and hope that your Potion does not get Swindled.  Then, basically:

Familiar when you get a chance.
Phil Stone if you're at $3-5+P and there's no point in Familiars.
Scrying pool if you're at exactly $2+P
Silver at $3
Tournament at $4
Venture at $5
Gold at $6
Standard greening rules, just using Tunnel for its VP value, not trying to combo it.

Is Gold always better than Adventurer in this case?  With a few Ventures in the deck, I'd have thought Adventurer would do very well.
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Epoch

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 04:27:57 pm »
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Is Gold always better than Adventurer in this case?  With a few Ventures in the deck, I'd have thought Adventurer would do very well.

It is possible for Adventurer to be better than Gold.  It will be if you can reliably play Adventurer when you get it, and when your average money value is > $1.5.  But I'm avoiding it for a few reason:

1.  Venture is essentially "Adventurer, but better."  In any case where you're considering getting Adventurer instead of Gold, you should strongly consider Venture instead of Gold.

2.  There is a possibility of terminal-clash here.  You're opening with a Swindler, and your opponent could easily put some more terminals in your deck via Swindler.

3.  When Adventurer is better than Gold, it's usually not MUCH better than Gold, unless you've done something like heavily trashed your Coppers.  Which you aren't going to do in this game.
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ecq

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Re: What to Prioritize?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 07:08:32 pm »
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Don't worry about Tunnel unless the other guy is foolishly grabbing Margrave.  Get Tournament if there's not much cursing happening, going for Trusty Steed first.

Pretty sure if not much cursing is happening, followers should be a lot better. It's going to happen pretty late in the game to care about tunnel discards and the 2 point swing should be much stronger than whatever Trusty Steed gives you.

My thought was that Trusty Steed is mostly good for the draw and actions since there's no other source of actions on the board and all the draws are terminal.  I guess it depends on when the Tournament and Province line up and what the other guy is doing. 
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