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Author Topic: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review  (Read 4987 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2017, 02:23:33 am »
0

- He seems to really hate Fool - I've never played it IRL but I can see it being fiddly.

Played a 3-player IRL game with Fool.  We were constantly trying to get Lost in the Woods from each other.  I think the other two players quite enjoyed it.

I think Vasel is just being a fuddy-duddy curmudgeon for the sake of being a fuddy-duddy curmudgeon.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2017, 04:01:49 am »
+1

Bit of shame that he didn't mention how much more thematic Nocturne is than previous sets. That has always been a big criticism of Dominion. Although I never really understood it myself.
He almost made a joke of it at the beginning of the review. "Where's the werewolves?"

The thing I noticed, he does NOT like any setup that requires more than 10x Kingdom cards + Base cards. Tokens, mats, extra cards always get criticized in his Doe-Minion reviews.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2017, 04:17:46 am »
+4

I just watched Vasel's review of Nocturne.  Although I do agree with some of what he says, mostly I just got a kick out of it.  It was funny, because it was pretty obvious that he doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to dominion. 

I watch his reviews for lots of games I am interested in, but this makes me wonder how well he explains them.  He described ghost saying "you can look through your deck and set aside an action card".  He neglected to mention the part that is actually good about ghost.  He also just said a lot of things wrong.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/344530-briefly-stated-the-gell-mann-amnesia-effect-is-as-follows-you

So much of this.  I think I watched one of Vasel's reviews and... nothing about it made me think he was a good reviewer.

I think he's got a huge passion for what he does. But he's the poster child of the 3-plays-is-a-lot mindset, and with the output of videos he pushes through, I doubt he plays more than a couple of games each (and he doesn't always get the rules straight).

I know he's got a very different mindset than I have, and I enjoy his reviews keeping that in mind. He did direct me to Sheriff of Nottingham, which is a game I love.

I mean, it's a bit of a conundrum really - we expect a professional reviewer to try a lot of games for us (good and bad), and tell us how they are, but games are not movies or books, and playing them once or twice is in many cases not sufficient to form an informed opinion. So what's a reviewer to do?

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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2017, 10:36:28 am »
+3

I'm going to have to disagree with most of the "he doesn't understand the cards" sentiment. Sure, he doesn't have them all memorized after a couple plays. Most of what I see people criticizing is his rapid-fire explanations of the cards. For example, Ghost. Obviously he doesn't think Ghost just sets aside an action and is done. He was in a hurry to get through all the cards, so he didn't explain it completely.

The one I noticed where he did actually describe incorrect gameplay is Crypt. He made it sound like you couldn't set aside your in-play money -- which is basically the whole strength of the card. Even here, it's certainly possibly he played with the card correctly and just used a bad example in his rush to get through all the cards.

Finally, he definitely gets some of the strategic subtleties wrong, such as his comments about how it can be hard to get your Tragic Hero to upgrade into a treasure (whereas most Dominion players are trying to figure out how to keep that from happening). Once again, that's understandable for someone who's not as into Dominion as the people on the forum. "The card can turn into a treasure, so that should be my goal with it." Don't hold that thinking against him. And he does at least mention that it's an easy way to get Platinum.
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popsofctown

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2017, 11:26:10 am »
0

Do people usually pronounce Dominion with a long o at the beginning? Is it a southern thing that I use the upside down e sound, u in circus?

Not a southern thing.  Born, raised and still living in the south, and no one I know pronounces it the way Vasel does.
But which part of the south tho, fite me IRL, I have dark ages/hinterlands/seaside
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 02:31:00 pm »
+1

I am from the south and pronounce Dominion very differently from Tom Vasel.  You have my hypothesis backwards.

Yeah, I misread it. But I'm from the south, so what do you expect?
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ackmondual

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2017, 02:36:41 pm »
+2

And if we're nitpicking: "There is necromancer, it lets you play cards from the trash, there are zombies in the trash, they do this this and this, and I guess that technically there could be other good cards in the trash, which is rare but might happen if there are other cards in the game that allow you to do that".

Like uh, two of the three Zombies you just read aloud?

Oh, I got one!  4:14... Durations have shown up in Seaside, Adventures, Empires, and this/Nocturne, so it's the 4th set.  TBF, he reviews a large mass of games, so I'd forgive him for these such mistakes.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2017, 12:58:48 am »
0

...Finally, he definitely gets some of the strategic subtleties wrong, such as his comments about how it can be hard to get your Tragic Hero to upgrade into a treasure (whereas most Dominion players are trying to figure out how to keep that from happening). ...And he does at least mention that it's an easy way to get Platinum.
The first game I played with Tragic Hero (during the preview week) had Colonies and Platinum.
That was fun.  ;D

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2017, 05:48:57 am »
0

Finally, he definitely gets some of the strategic subtleties wrong, such as his comments about how it can be hard to get your Tragic Hero to upgrade into a treasure (whereas most Dominion players are trying to figure out how to keep that from happening). Once again, that's understandable for someone who's not as into Dominion as the people on the forum. "The card can turn into a treasure, so that should be my goal with it." Don't hold that thinking against him. And he does at least mention that it's an easy way to get Platinum.

I see that happening with Fool's Gold too. Also with Champion (no Diadem). Or playing Small Castle too early.
Oddly enough I barely see people trashing their Mining Village/Hermit.

I think "if it costs more, it is better" is an oft-used heuristic for new players. And it's not that bad of a heuristic, it just can't keep up as you progress.
I also commonly see "you should buy stuff experienced players are buying" and "you should buy things you don't have yet", the former of which helps in identifying the difference between what you're doing and how those cards should be used well, and the latter of which helps in experimenting with cards to find their strengths/weaknesses.
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Titandrake

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2017, 06:02:22 am »
0

My theory is that with Fool's Gold / Tragic Hero / Small Castle, you're trashing it for another card, so it's like exchanging it for a card that you think is better - that feels like a good thing to do. For Mining Village / Hermit, you're trashing it for a one-off effect, and although that can be worth it, it can feel like you trashed a useful card for something that doesn't have a lasting effect.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2017, 10:55:27 am »
0

My theory is that with Fool's Gold / Tragic Hero / Small Castle, you're trashing it for another card, so it's like exchanging it for a card that you think is better - that feels like a good thing to do. For Mining Village / Hermit, you're trashing it for a one-off effect, and although that can be worth it, it can feel like you trashed a useful card for something that doesn't have a lasting effect.

Agreed.
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ackmondual

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2017, 01:03:20 pm »
+3

I watched the video, and towards the end 12:14 (after he goes through all of the cards), he mentions that Dom used to be about simplicity, grab x cards, and go.  But here, there are a lot of dependencies.  I wonder if he brought them up in his reviews of other Dom sets (e.g. Looter and Ruins, Prize and Prizes).  Granted, it was as pronounced a problem back then.

However, I really do suspect if expansions were more so about "more of the same thing", would it have flown with gamers in general?  No new mechanics, or complicated ones, and cards are just retreads of the same attributes.  For example, there's now a card that does +2 cards and +2 actions (which would be Lost City), but not include the other new mechanics (for Adventures, would lack Player tokens, Events, Traveler, and Tavern/Reserve). 

You can always just leave out the stuff that's too complicated or rubs you the wrong way (in this case, all cards that use Hexes, Boons, and other dependencies like Heirlooms).  However, he is free to say he doesn't like this, and it's expensive to buy a new expansions, only to strip away so many other things.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2017, 01:12:16 pm »
0

I like Vasel's reviews for non-Dominion stuff, though we certainly don't agree on a ton of games.  I'm not surprised he came down hard on this set because there does seem to be a lot of fiddliness - not only are the Boons and Hexes piles themselves a bit fiddly (pre-game shuffling is rare in Dominion besides your own deck), the Boons are also fiddly because now you have to take the action on them, and sometimes decide whether you want it this turn or next turn, or decide whether you want to do it at all. 

I love Nocturne online - the Heirlooms in particular are a great touch IMO - but I can see why someone like Vasel would not enjoy it as a live experience, even though I find his criticism of the Night phase and the storage issue to be picayune and somewhat idiosyncratic to him, respectively.

You can always just leave out the stuff that's too complicated or rubs you the wrong way (in this case, all cards that use Hexes, Boons, and other dependencies like Heirlooms).  However, he is free to say he doesn't like this, and it's expensive to buy a new expansions, only to strip away so many other things.

There's not a whole lot in the set that doesn't have an Heirloom, doesn't use Boons or Hexes or somehow involve Imps, Will O' The Wisps, Ghosts, or Wishes, or isn't a Night card.  I think there's only 2 or 3 cards like this.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 01:14:28 pm by Triumph44 »
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popsofctown

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2017, 06:59:52 pm »
0

(pre-game shuffling is rare in Dominion besides your own deck)
Randomizer cards.
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Triumph44

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2017, 07:41:03 pm »
0

(pre-game shuffling is rare in Dominion besides your own deck)
Randomizer cards.

I assume most people use an app. 
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2017, 02:18:18 am »
+1

(pre-game shuffling is rare in Dominion besides your own deck),

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2017, 03:00:52 am »
+2

Tom Vasel may have gotten some things wrong, but as I stated before, I do agree that Nocturne fails at being friendly to inexperienced players. You can't just throw Heirlooms, Boons, Hexes, Durations, playing from the trash, non-supply cards, States, exchanging and a new phase at players and expect that expansion to be "something for new players" just because it's also random. That doesn't mean I dislike Nocturne as a whole, as I like lots of the cards and also the Heirloom mechanic, but the logic just doesn't add up to me.

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2017, 04:52:59 am »
+5

Tom Vasel may have gotten some things wrong, but as I stated before, I do agree that Nocturne fails at being friendly to inexperienced players. You can't just throw Heirlooms, Boons, Hexes, Durations, playing from the trash, non-supply cards, States, exchanging and a new phase at players and expect that expansion to be "something for new players" just because it's also random. That doesn't mean I dislike Nocturne as a whole, as I like lots of the cards and also the Heirloom mechanic, but the logic just doesn't add up to me.
The expansion wasn't trying to be "something for new players," it was trying to be something for the masses of Dominion players rather than experts; and the idea that this could be accomplished via "just because it's also random" is your own crazy idea.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2017, 05:23:34 am »
+1

(pre-game shuffling is rare in Dominion besides your own deck)
Randomizer cards.

I assume most people use an app.

I wrote my own Java application because I couldn't find a randomizer application with the functionality I wanted.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2017, 11:39:55 am »
+2

Tom Vasel may have gotten some things wrong, but as I stated before, I do agree that Nocturne fails at being friendly to inexperienced players. You can't just throw Heirlooms, Boons, Hexes, Durations, playing from the trash, non-supply cards, States, exchanging and a new phase at players and expect that expansion to be "something for new players" just because it's also random. That doesn't mean I dislike Nocturne as a whole, as I like lots of the cards and also the Heirloom mechanic, but the logic just doesn't add up to me.
The expansion wasn't trying to be "something for new players," it was trying to be something for the masses of Dominion players rather than experts; and the idea that this could be accomplished via "just because it's also random" is your own crazy idea.
Whatever the idea behind making it appealing to non-expert players was, it doesn't seem to go well with using over ten mechanics not seen in the first game and about nine that weren't in either of the games laid out to be base editions. A single card like Fool makes you grab a Heirloom, State, the Boons stack and a non-supply card. Did it occur to you that this is not about me or anybody else who gives negative critizism hating your guts and trying to make you miserable? Because, as spiteful as I may be, I still try to give you feedback for why I think things are being critizised. You can be mad at me all you want, but I have no way of estimating what critizisms you heard before and how/whether you dealed with them, or what you intended with things, so I have to take guesses if I want to provide feedback. And, you know, I do that, because I love that game you made, and want to help. Some people are great at telling you what is great at your stuff, and well, that's not what I do. If I think that your expansion uses too many mechanics and components to be appealing to non-experts however, I'll tell you about it.

Either way, you'll be able to estimate this in a year or so at latest, and then you can smack me with the selling numbers if I was wrong. I don't know how Tom Vasel feels about that, but I'm fine with it.

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2017, 01:55:16 pm »
0

He's always been very imprecise when talking about rules or mechanics. He's giving what feels like a very general overview; not only in terms of his opinions; but in terms of how the game works. Oftentimes it has been wrong to the point of annoying. I seem to remember him using words like "Gold" and such as a stand-in for the currency you spend when you buy stuff; but I can't remember the specifics.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2017, 02:59:45 pm »
+2

I wrote my own Java application because I couldn't find a randomizer application with the functionality I wanted.

I wrote my own Java application

Java

You must have been desperate.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2017, 04:54:28 pm »
+4

Tom Vasel may have gotten some things wrong, but as I stated before, I do agree that Nocturne fails at being friendly to inexperienced players. You can't just throw Heirlooms, Boons, Hexes, Durations, playing from the trash, non-supply cards, States, exchanging and a new phase at players and expect that expansion to be "something for new players" just because it's also random. That doesn't mean I dislike Nocturne as a whole, as I like lots of the cards and also the Heirloom mechanic, but the logic just doesn't add up to me.
The expansion wasn't trying to be "something for new players," it was trying to be something for the masses of Dominion players rather than experts; and the idea that this could be accomplished via "just because it's also random" is your own crazy idea.
Whatever the idea behind making it appealing to non-expert players was, it doesn't seem to go well with using over ten mechanics not seen in the first game and about nine that weren't in either of the games laid out to be base editions. A single card like Fool makes you grab a Heirloom, State, the Boons stack and a non-supply card. Did it occur to you that this is not about me or anybody else who gives negative critizism hating your guts and trying to make you miserable? Because, as spiteful as I may be, I still try to give you feedback for why I think things are being critizised. You can be mad at me all you want, but I have no way of estimating what critizisms you heard before and how/whether you dealed with them, or what you intended with things, so I have to take guesses if I want to provide feedback. And, you know, I do that, because I love that game you made, and want to help. Some people are great at telling you what is great at your stuff, and well, that's not what I do. If I think that your expansion uses too many mechanics and components to be appealing to non-experts however, I'll tell you about it.

Either way, you'll be able to estimate this in a year or so at latest, and then you can smack me with the selling numbers if I was wrong. I don't know how Tom Vasel feels about that, but I'm fine with it.
You heavily implied that I said things that I never said. I corrected that. You don't like that I guess. Well man. It sucks when people on the internet heavily imply that I said nonsense. If I'm going to be hanging around wherever they're saying it, I correct it. It's not the broader issue of "just what mistakes did I make in Nocturne and how good is Asper at spotting them." It's entirely "stop making stuff up and saying I said it."

Complain about Nocturne all you want. Meanwhile, stop making stuff up and saying I said it!
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2017, 09:17:20 pm »
0

Tom Vasel may have gotten some things wrong, but as I stated before, I do agree that Nocturne fails at being friendly to inexperienced players. You can't just throw Heirlooms, Boons, Hexes, Durations, playing from the trash, non-supply cards, States, exchanging and a new phase at players and expect that expansion to be "something for new players" just because it's also random. That doesn't mean I dislike Nocturne as a whole, as I like lots of the cards and also the Heirloom mechanic, but the logic just doesn't add up to me.
The expansion wasn't trying to be "something for new players," it was trying to be something for the masses of Dominion players rather than experts; and the idea that this could be accomplished via "just because it's also random" is your own crazy idea.
Whatever the idea behind making it appealing to non-expert players was, it doesn't seem to go well with using over ten mechanics not seen in the first game and about nine that weren't in either of the games laid out to be base editions. A single card like Fool makes you grab a Heirloom, State, the Boons stack and a non-supply card. Did it occur to you that this is not about me or anybody else who gives negative critizism hating your guts and trying to make you miserable? Because, as spiteful as I may be, I still try to give you feedback for why I think things are being critizised. You can be mad at me all you want, but I have no way of estimating what critizisms you heard before and how/whether you dealed with them, or what you intended with things, so I have to take guesses if I want to provide feedback. And, you know, I do that, because I love that game you made, and want to help. Some people are great at telling you what is great at your stuff, and well, that's not what I do. If I think that your expansion uses too many mechanics and components to be appealing to non-experts however, I'll tell you about it.

Either way, you'll be able to estimate this in a year or so at latest, and then you can smack me with the selling numbers if I was wrong. I don't know how Tom Vasel feels about that, but I'm fine with it.
You heavily implied that I said things that I never said. I corrected that. You don't like that I guess. Well man. It sucks when people on the internet heavily imply that I said nonsense. If I'm going to be hanging around wherever they're saying it, I correct it. It's not the broader issue of "just what mistakes did I make in Nocturne and how good is Asper at spotting them." It's entirely "stop making stuff up and saying I said it."

Complain about Nocturne all you want. Meanwhile, stop making stuff up and saying I said it!
You brought the target audience up in reply to a question on the randomness of Boons and Hexes here, so I'd say this is where the implying begins. But if you want to clear this up, you could just state what it is that you intended for to drive Nocturne towards non-expert players.

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2017, 09:23:10 pm »
+1

Tom Vasel may have gotten some things wrong, but as I stated before, I do agree that Nocturne fails at being friendly to inexperienced players. You can't just throw Heirlooms, Boons, Hexes, Durations, playing from the trash, non-supply cards, States, exchanging and a new phase at players and expect that expansion to be "something for new players" just because it's also random. That doesn't mean I dislike Nocturne as a whole, as I like lots of the cards and also the Heirloom mechanic, but the logic just doesn't add up to me.
The expansion wasn't trying to be "something for new players," it was trying to be something for the masses of Dominion players rather than experts; and the idea that this could be accomplished via "just because it's also random" is your own crazy idea.
Whatever the idea behind making it appealing to non-expert players was, it doesn't seem to go well with using over ten mechanics not seen in the first game and about nine that weren't in either of the games laid out to be base editions. A single card like Fool makes you grab a Heirloom, State, the Boons stack and a non-supply card. Did it occur to you that this is not about me or anybody else who gives negative critizism hating your guts and trying to make you miserable? Because, as spiteful as I may be, I still try to give you feedback for why I think things are being critizised. You can be mad at me all you want, but I have no way of estimating what critizisms you heard before and how/whether you dealed with them, or what you intended with things, so I have to take guesses if I want to provide feedback. And, you know, I do that, because I love that game you made, and want to help. Some people are great at telling you what is great at your stuff, and well, that's not what I do. If I think that your expansion uses too many mechanics and components to be appealing to non-experts however, I'll tell you about it.

Either way, you'll be able to estimate this in a year or so at latest, and then you can smack me with the selling numbers if I was wrong. I don't know how Tom Vasel feels about that, but I'm fine with it.
You heavily implied that I said things that I never said. I corrected that. You don't like that I guess. Well man. It sucks when people on the internet heavily imply that I said nonsense. If I'm going to be hanging around wherever they're saying it, I correct it. It's not the broader issue of "just what mistakes did I make in Nocturne and how good is Asper at spotting them." It's entirely "stop making stuff up and saying I said it."

Complain about Nocturne all you want. Meanwhile, stop making stuff up and saying I said it!
You brought the target audience up in reply to a question on the randomness of Boons and Hexes here, so I'd say this is where the implying begins. But if you want to clear this up, you could just state what it is that you intended for to drive Nocturne towards non-expert players.
I did bring that audience up there. I said, "One thing about this expansion was, I wanted to make sure the game still had stuff to offer to the masses of Dominion players, the regular players, that don't go online to find out how bad Silver is or whatever."

Not, "something for new players." Those aren't new players at all.

Perhaps you now wish to agree that you got that wrong? It's easy to avoid in the future. Just say what you yourself think, don't say what you think I think.

I only have so much time to devote to satisfying demands of posters. I am here now, in this thread I normally wouldn't be posting in (you can find me endlessly commenting on my failings or successes elsewhere, but it's not something I like to talk about in comments for a review), only in order to not have people believe that the words you put in my mouth were my words.
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