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Author Topic: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review  (Read 4657 times)

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Chappy7

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Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« on: December 14, 2017, 02:26:57 pm »
+2

I just watched Vasel's review of Nocturne.  Although I do agree with some of what he says, mostly I just got a kick out of it.  It was funny, because it was pretty obvious that he doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to dominion. 

I watch his reviews for lots of games I am interested in, but this makes me wonder how well he explains them.  He described ghost saying "you can look through your deck and set aside an action card".  He neglected to mention the part that is actually good about ghost.  He also just said a lot of things wrong.

He was super negative about this expansion.  He does have a point about the dominion font on the sex hex and boon cards, and the weird font on the back of the box.  Those both seem pretty meh.  But I think he was way too negative.  He claims it will only be fun for the most hard core dominion players. 

Thoughts?
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Awaclus

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017, 02:29:06 pm »
+4

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 02:38:42 pm »
0

He also just said a lot of things wrong.

Such as:

Quote
He claims it will only be fun for the most hard core dominion players.

Hmmm:

Quote from: Secret History of Nocturne
Gradually the set acquired two themes: "spooky" and Celtic mythology. It seemed okay to go for both at once; they overlap a little. Mechanically the set tries to be more for typical Dominion players, rather than experts; the previous set, Empires, is heavily aimed at experts, and well I like the sets to be different.

I guess you could claim that the set will fail at that aim, but it seems like a really odd conclusion to draw, given the theme and elements like Heirlooms, Hexes and Boons.
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enfynet

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 03:00:13 pm »
0

Most of the stuff in Nocturne that works for the typical player is based on just doing exactly what the card says. The Night thing is clearly the most complex addition to Nocturne, but the card effects are all fairly simple.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 03:23:07 pm »
+2

Mostly I just wish rickert would go away. His slavish devotion to Rio Grande Games in general and Dominion in particular are not a good match with his incredibly combative personality. I feel like he does more damage to public perception of Dominion and its fans than 20 detractors would.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 03:26:01 pm »
+1

Well, I can get where he's coming from, and I'd be skeptical of introducing this expansion to newer players, more so because there are so many other expansions will cards that draw in the crowd without seeming too overwhelming. I do think that Nocturne stands out stronger when you actually take the Nocturne box with you and play with several Nocturne cards at a time to get players up to speed on its mechanics more quickly. Tom opinion might be skewers due to his preferred method of carrying Dominion around.

I am more concerned that Tom has made some mistakes in parsing the cards. In particular, I am not sure he understood how Crypt is able to save spend treasures, or it sounded like that at least.
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markusin

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 03:31:21 pm »
+3

Mostly I just wish rickert would go away. His slavish devotion to Rio Grande Games in general and Dominion in particular are not a good match with his incredibly combative personality. I feel like he does more damage to public perception of Dominion and its fans than 20 detractors would.

For context, here is the BGG thread for Tom's Nocturne review: https://boardgamegeek.com/video/160016/dominion-nocturne/dominion-nocturne-review-tom-vasel
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Chappy7

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 03:34:04 pm »
+2

I am more concerned that Tom has made some mistakes in parsing the cards. In particular, I am not sure he understood how Crypt is able to save spend treasures, or it sounded like that at least.

I think you're right about this.  Also when talking about monastery ( or monastory as he called it) he made it sound like trashing is just okay and some people like to do it.

The cards that got him most excited were raider and secret cave.  Interesting choices.  Although I do think secret cave is fun. 
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markusin

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 04:34:36 pm »
0

I am more concerned that Tom has made some mistakes in parsing the cards. In particular, I am not sure he understood how Crypt is able to save spend treasures, or it sounded like that at least.

I think you're right about this.  Also when talking about monastery ( or monastory as he called it) he made it sound like trashing is just okay and some people like to do it.

The cards that got him most excited were raider and secret cave.  Interesting choices.  Although I do think secret cave is fun.

He also liked Conclave I think.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 05:53:36 pm »
+3

And if we're nitpicking: "There is necromancer, it lets you play cards from the trash, there are zombies in the trash, they do this this and this, and I guess that technically there could be other good cards in the trash, which is rare but might happen if there are other cards in the game that allow you to do that".

Like uh, two of the three Zombies you just read aloud?
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markusin

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 05:58:45 pm »
+2

And if we're nitpicking: "There is necromancer, it lets you play cards from the trash, there are zombies in the trash, they do this this and this, and I guess that technically there could be other good cards in the trash, which is rare but might happen if there are other cards in the game that allow you to do that".

Like uh, two of the three Zombies you just read aloud?

Yeah I rewinded when I heard that the first time. Later in the video here said that he played with all the cards, and I thought, "but did you play with all the cards?" But maybe it just a matter of rushing through cards that he didn't care for much.

I also think Nocturne was an acquired taste for a bunch of people here on f.ds as well. We had skepticism and debates over the boons and hexes.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 06:05:16 pm »
+4

I don't get all the complaints about "They added a whole new phase". Like, it's literally just "you can play these cards only at this time". It doesn't errata previous action cards or makes you go through confusing hoops. Like, it would be bad if "once per turn after your buy phase you may trash a card from your hand to play a cheaper night card from your discard pile." It's just play your night cards, the end.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 06:10:59 pm »
+13

I just watched Vasel's review of Nocturne.  Although I do agree with some of what he says, mostly I just got a kick out of it.  It was funny, because it was pretty obvious that he doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to dominion. 

I watch his reviews for lots of games I am interested in, but this makes me wonder how well he explains them.  He described ghost saying "you can look through your deck and set aside an action card".  He neglected to mention the part that is actually good about ghost.  He also just said a lot of things wrong.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/344530-briefly-stated-the-gell-mann-amnesia-effect-is-as-follows-you
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 06:30:49 pm »
+2

Having seen the full video, some observations:
- Tom doesn't know the cards. (see Zombies and Ghost) Which is fine, I guess -already knowing all cards in a kingdom might seem like obvious but it's not to the real casual players. Those players might be better served by playing more of the Dominion they own, so hey that's fine.
- He seems to really hate Fool - I've never played it IRL but I can see it being fiddly. Still, if you have ever King's Courted a King's Court, Fool doesn't seem worse (by design).
- I just don't see a lot of the criticism he moves against Night cards. Back in the day, Durations were more fiddly, Treasures-that-do-stuff more confusing, Reactions-to-weird-stuff more outlandish, and Crown more enraging. It feels like that horse has already bolted 8 expansions ago...
- Regarding Hexes and Boons, I don't mind them.  But again, I see the fiddliness argument, but it doesn't seem too bad. I really have trouble believing statuses are as bad as he paints them.

Ultimately, I think that Tom is not the target audience - the target audience being people who know the Dominion sets they play with and want to try something different.
The fact that he had already reduced his collection seems to support this hypothesis.
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Kirian

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 06:45:05 pm »
+2

I just watched Vasel's review of Nocturne.  Although I do agree with some of what he says, mostly I just got a kick out of it.  It was funny, because it was pretty obvious that he doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to dominion. 

I watch his reviews for lots of games I am interested in, but this makes me wonder how well he explains them.  He described ghost saying "you can look through your deck and set aside an action card".  He neglected to mention the part that is actually good about ghost.  He also just said a lot of things wrong.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/344530-briefly-stated-the-gell-mann-amnesia-effect-is-as-follows-you

So much of this.  I think I watched one of Vasel's reviews and... nothing about it made me think he was a good reviewer.
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markusin

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 08:02:34 pm »
0

Having seen the full video, some observations:
- Tom doesn't know the cards. (see Zombies and Ghost) Which is fine, I guess -already knowing all cards in a kingdom might seem like obvious but it's not to the real casual players. Those players might be better served by playing more of the Dominion they own, so hey that's fine.
- He seems to really hate Fool - I've never played it IRL but I can see it being fiddly. Still, if you have ever King's Courted a King's Court, Fool doesn't seem worse (by design).
- I just don't see a lot of the criticism he moves against Night cards. Back in the day, Durations were more fiddly, Treasures-that-do-stuff more confusing, Reactions-to-weird-stuff more outlandish, and Crown more enraging. It feels like that horse has already bolted 8 expansions ago...
- Regarding Hexes and Boons, I don't mind them.  But again, I see the fiddliness argument, but it doesn't seem too bad. I really have trouble believing statuses are as bad as he paints them.

Ultimately, I think that Tom is not the target audience - the target audience being people who know the Dominion sets they play with and want to try something different.
The fact that he had already reduced his collection seems to support this hypothesis.

Yeah, I still think durations are "fiddly". Like, Tactician stays out in play, except if you didn't discard anything, but you don't put a token on it or anything to remind you that you discarded a card for it, and the ruling of Throne Room into a Duration like Tactician or Gear got changed, uh, I think. Edit: I bet many players just went with the heuristic of durations staying out for one turn, and then bam Archive says you never really understood the rules at all.

Edit: oh, I also watched his review on Guilds earlier today. It is almost sad to watch the review of the "final" expansion in retrospect.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 08:07:13 pm by markusin »
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Gazbag

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 08:52:45 pm »
+2

Bit of shame that he didn't mention how much more thematic Nocturne is than previous sets. That has always been a big criticism of Dominion. Although I never really understood it myself.
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popsofctown

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2017, 08:53:25 pm »
+1

Do people usually pronounce Dominion with a long o at the beginning? Is it a southern thing that I use the upside down e sound, u in circus?

As for the review, I don't really play Dominion in paper so it's hard for me to have an opinion.  I just sometimes play with my family, but not enough plays that anyone else figures out what they're doing.  I don't enjoy other board games on average, enough, for me to go to local board gaming groups and hope that Dominion gets pulled out for some play.  The kind of people at those, they buy all sorts of different games.  So when they buy an expansion, to them it has to compete with buying another game.  And if the expansion doesn't change the game enough they feel like they missed an opportunity to buy an altogether new game instead.  So this kind of stuff newness overload has to happen.  It's how the board gaming market works.  It is a market that saddens me.  As a rabid darwinistic Adam Smith libertarian I wish it was a board gaming market where players vote on what game to play at these board gaming groups, and players who bring games that aren't repeatedly played are fed to sharks, and over time only the games people want to play are purchased in stores.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 09:12:57 pm by popsofctown »
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trivialknot

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 08:53:36 pm »
+1

I don't have anything in particular against Tom Vasel.  I think the main issue is, reviewers just aren't much use in considering Dominion expansions.  The most important thing to know about Nocturne is that it's a Dominion expansion, and that's it.  You get if either you're a Dominion fan, or if you just like Dominion and want a little more variety.  If you're choosing between Dominion expansions, you get more recent ones if you like more complexity and wackiness, or else you get earlier expansions.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 09:24:30 pm by trivialknot »
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markusin

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 09:24:24 pm »
0

I don't have anything in particular against Tom Vassel.  I think the main issue is, reviewers just aren't much use in considering Dominion expansions.  The most important thing to know about Nocturne is that it's a Dominion expansion, and that's it.  You get if either you're a Dominion fan, or if you just like Dominion and want a little more variety.  If you're choosing between Dominion expansions, you get more recent ones if you like more complexity and wackiness, or else you get earlier expansions.

Tom does show what the cards are at least.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2017, 09:37:32 pm »
+1

Bit of shame that he didn't mention how much more thematic Nocturne is than previous sets. That has always been a big criticism of Dominion. Although I never really understood it myself.

To be fair, he did mention that in the review, and said he thought one of the great things about Dominion was that it didn't need a theme and was just fun. I think it's implicit that he thinks Nocturne is trying too hard to have a theme, but I could be reading too many Youtube comments. (always a mistake)
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2017, 10:03:02 pm »
+2

the upside down e sound, u in circus?

Ah, the noble schwa.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2017, 11:25:08 pm »
0

Do people usually pronounce Dominion with a long o at the beginning? Is it a southern thing that I use the upside down e sound, u in circus?

Not a southern thing.  Born, raised and still living in the south, and no one I know pronounces it the way Vasel does.
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popsofctown

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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2017, 11:47:17 pm »
0

I am from the south and pronounce Dominion very differently from Tom Vasel.  You have my hypothesis backwards.
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Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2017, 12:03:56 am »
+4

I am from the south and pronounce Dominion very differently from Tom Vasel.  You have my hypothesis backwards.

Im from the Midwest (Great Lakes) area, and I also use the schwa. Only Tom Vasel pronounces it that way.
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