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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part IV  (Read 14484 times)

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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #425 on: March 13, 2019, 08:07:32 am »
+1

It is a nebulous enough term that its usefulness is questionable.

I've seen it used many times in an attempt to shut someone down. That guy arguing for the legalization of gay marriage? He just virtue-signaling, so we can ignore his arguments. He only cares because his girlfriend does.

It might not even be true, but the mere act of calling someone out on virtue-signaling shifts the focus from the actual argument itself to the person's intentions. With a few choice words, you paint the altruistic as opportunistic. 

It's become one of those internet buzzwords that requires scrutiny because it can be used to effectively shut down constructive talk. See also: Mansplaining, sealioning, SJW.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #426 on: March 13, 2019, 08:31:10 am »
0

Help me remember a phrase... what is it called when you take advantage of a situation to make sure people know where you stand on an issue? Like, if a racist act were in the news, and you post about how you think it was such a horrible thing, because you really want people to know that you think racism is bad.

Itís like lip service, but different. Lip service is more about not doing anything more than just talking about something. The thing Iím thinking of is more about the desire for people to know where you stand.

Virtue-signaling?

That's it, thanks!
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #427 on: March 13, 2019, 08:43:31 am »
0

It is a nebulous enough term that its usefulness is questionable.

I've seen it used many times in an attempt to shut someone down. That guy arguing for the legalization of gay marriage? He just virtue-signaling, so we can ignore his arguments. He only cares because his girlfriend does.

It might not even be true, but the mere act of calling someone out on virtue-signaling shifts the focus from the actual argument itself to the person's intentions. With a few choice words, you paint the altruistic as opportunistic. 

It's become one of those internet buzzwords that requires scrutiny because it can be used to effectively shut down constructive talk. See also: Mansplaining, sealioning, SJW.

You're not completely wrong, which is unfortunate, because I do genuinely think that most of what drives most people (in rich societies) most of the time is signaling. if you want a precise definition, "a method of conveying information by performing an action that is more likely if the information is true vs false". If you're arguing for gay marriage so that people think you're pro gay marriage rather than to achieve outcomes, then you're signaling. If you're arguing to achieve outcomes, then signaling would be a byproduct.

Afaik almost all evidence that distinguishes between the two shows that the signaling function is most of the story wrt to people's motivations in most contexts.
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faust

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #428 on: March 13, 2019, 08:50:42 am »
0

You're not completely wrong, which is unfortunate, because I do genuinely think that most of what drives most people (in rich societies) most of the time is signaling. if you want a precise definition, "a method of conveying information by performing an action that is more likely if the information is true vs false". If you're arguing for gay marriage so that people think you're pro gay marriage rather than to achieve outcomes, then you're signaling. If you're arguing to achieve outcomes, then signaling would be a byproduct.

Afaik almost all evidence that distinguishes between the two shows that the signaling function is most of the story wrt to people's motivations in most contexts.
It's an interesting distinction that I don't think works completely. A common argument people make for speaking up on issues is "I do not want to create the impression that view XY is considered acceptable on this platform" - i.e., you are using signaling in order to achieve an outcome.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #429 on: March 13, 2019, 09:25:56 am »
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I've always thought if it in terms of intent. If your primary motivation for speaking out against racism is that you want people to see that you aren't a racist, then that's virtue signaling.
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markusin

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #430 on: March 13, 2019, 10:17:26 am »
+1

I also think "virtue signaling" is a rather nebulous term because its existence is heavily tied to the use of social media. Like, it's perfectly reasonable to be against racism or accepting of gay marriage, but it's not something you bring up immediately upon starting a conversation. In person, you'll generally want to discuss socio-political views as the topic comes up. But on social media, the social media user often has to "fill the void of silence" themselves, and so they'll want to say things that paint them in a good light. I mean, what else are you going to say if you feel compelled to say something? "80% of human behaviour" sounds about right.

Now, "virtue signaling" as a term probably came up from the other social media users that don't care what people's opinion about stuff is but have to see it in their news feed anyway. Kind of like a collective eye-roll. But I guess it gets more messy when people are banned "for their beliefs" from whatever website.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 10:19:02 am by markusin »
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faust

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #431 on: March 13, 2019, 10:30:54 am »
0

Now, "virtue signaling" as a term probably came up from the other social media users that don't care what people's opinion about stuff is but have to see it in their news feed anyway. Kind of like a collective eye-roll. But I guess it gets more messy when people are banned "for their beliefs" from whatever website.
Meh, I think that ignores the distinct political agenda behind the term. Personally I find happiness signaling way more obnoxious on social media, yet that is not a thing. Virtue signaling is because it can be used to shut down unwanted opinions.
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #432 on: March 13, 2019, 01:37:16 pm »
0

You're not completely wrong, which is unfortunate, because I do genuinely think that most of what drives most people (in rich societies) most of the time is signaling. if you want a precise definition, "a method of conveying information by performing an action that is more likely if the information is true vs false". If you're arguing for gay marriage so that people think you're pro gay marriage rather than to achieve outcomes, then you're signaling. If you're arguing to achieve outcomes, then signaling would be a byproduct.

Afaik almost all evidence that distinguishes between the two shows that the signaling function is most of the story wrt to people's motivations in most contexts.
It's an interesting distinction that I don't think works completely. A common argument people make for speaking up on issues is "I do not want to create the impression that view XY is considered acceptable on this platform" - i.e., you are using signaling in order to achieve an outcome.

If the stated outcome has signaling in it, I'd still put it in the "stated outcome" box rather than the "signaling" box. But you can't take people at their word. Just because they say they do it to defend an image of their platform doesn't mean that's the real reason.

I agree that the 'virtue' part is buzzword-ish. People can and do signal all kinds of stuff, including intelligence and wealth and happiness which are probably not virtues.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #433 on: March 13, 2019, 03:44:25 pm »
+1

People can and do signal all kinds of stuff, including wealth which are probably not virtues.

Why do you hate America?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #434 on: March 13, 2019, 09:51:42 pm »
0

I've spent significantly more time on this forum than I have actually playing Dominion.

Is Dominion a new Forum Game?
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #435 on: March 14, 2019, 01:53:26 pm »
0

People can and do signal all kinds of stuff, including wealth which are probably not virtues.

Why do you hate America?

There is no good response!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #436 on: March 14, 2019, 02:28:35 pm »
+1

I've spent significantly more time on this forum than I have actually playing Dominion.

Is Dominion a new Forum Game?

Actually, Forum is a new(ish) card in Dominion.
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Cuzz

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #437 on: March 14, 2019, 04:09:46 pm »
+2

I've spent significantly more time on this forum than I have actually playing Dominion.

Is Dominion a new Forum Game?

Actually, Forum is a new(ish) card in Dominion.

Spending time here is strictly better than spending time on warehouse.dominionstrategy.com.
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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #438 on: March 14, 2019, 04:25:02 pm »
0

I've spent significantly more time on this forum than I have actually playing Dominion.

Is Dominion a new Forum Game?
It seems a particularly unsuitable game candidate for playing by forum.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« Reply #439 on: March 14, 2019, 11:21:07 pm »
0

I've spent significantly more time on this forum than I have actually playing Dominion.

Is Dominion a new Forum Game?

Actually, Forum is a new(ish) card in Dominion.

So do they talk about Dominion in there?
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