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Author Topic: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"  (Read 581 times)

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popsofctown

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Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« on: December 08, 2017, 09:14:04 pm »
+1

I felt so excited about this one I actually downloaded gimp and stuff wanting to mock it up.. but I couldn't find a night card template. 
EDIT: A kind person helped me out.  It's humongous because I'm still an image noob, but I think the art is perfect.





Mr. Cotton
2$ Treasure - Night - Heirloom - Companion
Worth 1$
If it's night, set this aside and play it at the beginning of your next buy phase.

Lady Redtail
2$ Treasure - Night - Heirloom - Companion
Worth 1$
If it's night, set this aside and play it at the beginning of your next buy phase.

Miss Spots
2$ Treasure - Night - Heirloom - Companion
Worth 1$
If it's night, set this aside and play it at the beginning of your next buy phase.

Sparklemane
2$ Treasure - Night - Heirloom - Companion
Worth 1$
If it's night, set this aside and play it at the beginning of your next buy phase.

Master Brownfeathers
2$ Treasure - Night - Heirloom - Companion
Worth 1$
If it's night, set this aside and play it at the beginning of your next buy phase.

Queen Silktrunk
2$ Treasure - Night - Heirloom - Companion
Worth 1$
If it's night, set this aside and play it at the beginning of your next buy phase.



Keep in mind that like Outpost, the card will stay in play during the turn it generated rather than scheduling the turn to occur then bailing out.  This intuition is a little trickier when the duration is already overstaying its welcome by Seaside's standards, just like Archive and Crypt do, so I almost thought I needed rider text for that but I don't.  I think this was actually achievable with startlingly little exception text, especially now that we have Mission making the "nobody play the Islands+Mountains+Time Warp MtG tournament deck in Dominion pls" exception text familiar.

I think initially some people might think this seems so so powerful and that it needs to cost more but I really don't think so.  But I think even if it does, like Outpost it has a way of shouldering its way into a niche even it feels like the cost was rounded up to the nearest $, because it provides a pseudo +buy (and in both cases, it is a pseudo +buy with the potential to reach Duchy - no one gets Explorer because they can build a powerful deck that would be capable of buying Dominates and that pseudo + buy is the little bit extra)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:48:05 pm by popsofctown »
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a fixed Possession
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2017, 09:21:28 pm »
0

Though you may be jealous of the boy next door whose father trusts him enough to help with cutting the wood, or girl next door who puts on a crown for fun, even if you had someone else's stuffed animal, you would never love it the way they do, and it would not have the same worth to you.
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Violet CLM

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Re: Covetous Dream - a fixed Possession
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2017, 10:03:22 pm »
0

I felt so excited about this one I actually downloaded gimp and stuff wanting to mock it up.. but I couldn't find a night card template. 
I got you started.
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enfynet

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Re: Covetous Dream - a fixed Possession
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2017, 10:29:04 pm »
+1

This only works like Possession if your deck composition matches your opponent's.
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a fixed Possession
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 10:41:13 pm »
+1

This only works like Possession if your deck composition matches your opponent's.
This is correct. 
If there were no conditions under which it didn't work like Possession, I would have named it Possession.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 10:46:14 pm by popsofctown »
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enfynet

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Re: Covetous Dream - a fixed Possession
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2017, 10:52:19 pm »
+1

Well you did. You called it "a fixed Possession"
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a fixed Possession
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 10:53:27 pm »
0

Fair, there are better adjectives to describe its relationship with Possession.  I'll revise the thread title.
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Asper

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 05:49:02 am »
0

Quote my post to see how you resize images (height also works).

dz

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2017, 10:58:28 pm »
0

What's the point of all those different Companions? Why can't you make them all one Heirloom?
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 12:32:09 am »
0

What's the point of all those different Companions? Why can't you make them all one Heirloom?
Each Companion is essentially immune to Covetous Dream's effect by virtue of being uniquely named.  Each player starts with a differently named Heirloom, so if he or she has Covetous Dream in play and another player plays a Companion, he or she looks through his or her discard pile and fails to find a card with the same name.  This adds complexity to the decision of whether to trash your Companion.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 12:36:25 am by popsofctown »
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Kirian

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 01:27:40 am »
+1

I've read this a dozen times now and still don't understand what it's trying to accomplish... you end your turn, don't draw a hand, then draw what your left-hand opponent plays (assuming similar deck composition).  And then on your next turn, anything that draws cards is useless, so hopefully you're not trying to play an engine.  And then I guess you play a turn with their cards, then after you buy something you take another turn?

If I have two of these in play, it would appear that I get the effect twice, so if the LHO plays a Silver, I can dig two Silvers into my hand?

Other than the starvation rule, what stops them turning the game into a stalemate where they don't play anything, so you don't draw anything until you buy a Copper?

Also, this would be extremely vulnerable to any top-of-deck attacks.  "What's that, you don't have a discard pile any longer?  Sucks to be you."
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 02:04:40 am »
0

I've read this a dozen times now and still don't understand what it's trying to accomplish... you end your turn, don't draw a hand, then draw what your left-hand opponent plays (assuming similar deck composition).  And then on your next turn, anything that draws cards is useless, so hopefully you're not trying to play an engine.  And then I guess you play a turn with their cards, then after you buy something you take another turn?
Like Possession, you're getting an extra turn that's approximately as good as one your opponent played.  Exchanging a normal turn for a Smugglersy turn would be a Ruins power level card, so it needs to be an extra turn.

It's actually fine for your opponent to play an engine, because searching for your deck actually doubles the effect of cards that draw.  It's a little counterintuitive until you count it out.  In the design without this problem fixed: I have 4 coppers in hand and play a Smithy, draw 3 silvers, and play all of those cards to buy a Castle, and you watched all of that with Covetous, on your turn, your hand will begin with 4 Coppers, 3 Silvers, and a Smithy.  Should you play the Smithy and draw any treasure, you'd be doing better than the player you're coveting.

This behavior is retained for cards like Farming Village and Envoy.  I think that is ok, because players are not forced to pick up Farming Village or Envoy, and it adds some nuance to the decision.  They're not forced to buy cards with +cards either, but the design space is so loaded with it they might have to play Big Money if they don't want to allow the doubling.



Quote from: Kirian
If I have two of these in play, it would appear that I get the effect twice, so if the LHO plays a Silver, I can dig two Silvers into my hand?
This is impossible, similar to Tactician.  You can't even do it by discarding some kind of unreleased Tunnel that draws you cards, since the moratorium on drawing cards would already be in effect.
Even Mission or Outpost + Hireling can't do it..

Quote
Other than the starvation rule, what stops them turning the game into a stalemate where they don't play anything, so you don't draw anything until you buy a Copper?
I'm kind of not sure exactly how that would play out.  I'm pretty sure it is suboptimal play to -consistently- decline the Heirloom's potential, gaining a 5$ and having your opponent gain a 4$ should be a better deal than handing out a Copper most of the time.  Governor feels a lot more exciting than a 5$ card that says "+1 Action, eachother player gains a Copper", right?
But I'm thinking the requirement that you buy a Copper should be relaxed probably.  To tell you the truth I tried to set things up against this card in some ways because I know how much people hate Possession, the idea that the Possession player is playing more of a stables deck and less of a Chapel deck was part of my attempts to sate bloodlust.

Quote
Also, this would be extremely vulnerable to any top-of-deck attacks.  "What's that, you don't have a discard pile any longer?  Sucks to be you."
You still draw Rabble, Spy, or Scrying pool itself, but mostly, I considered this and figured the number of top of deck attacks is acceptably low enough.  Maybe it's not.  It at least seems nonobvious to me. Some of the top of deck attackers cause this card to transform itself into the top of deck attacker that harmed it, due to "when you play" timing.  For instance, if you get Bandited, you can go get a Bandit, and gaining a Gold and trashing a Silver is a respectable outcome from your nonterminal 5$ workshop.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:22:39 am by popsofctown »
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Kirian

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 02:20:15 am »
+1

Quote from: Kirian
If I have two of these in play, it would appear that I get the effect twice, so if the LHO plays a Silver, I can dig two Silvers into my hand?
If you get 4 Tacticians in play, Bridge games end unacceptably quickly, don't they.

Derp.  Of course.

Quote
Other than the starvation rule, what stops them turning the game into a stalemate where they don't play anything, so you don't draw anything until you buy a Copper?
I think I didn't consider this closely enough.  I'm not sure this actually goes into the diner with optimal play, but it does get more sloggy than I'd like.
I'll consider what type of fix is the most elegant.  I appreciate this particular criticism.

Quote
Also, this would be extremely vulnerable to any top-of-deck attacks.  "What's that, you don't have a discard pile any longer?  Sucks to be you."
You still draw Rabble, Spy, or Scrying pool itself, but mostly, I considered this and figured the number of top of deck attacks is acceptably low enough.  Maybe it's not.  It at least seems nonobvious to me.  Nonterminal Swindler is interesting.  This becomes more problematic in combination with the above issue of the buying a copper onus being too heavy which I am agreeing I think I messed up on a bit.  Some of the top of deck attackers cause this Band of Misfits itself into the top of deck attacker that came in, due to "when you play" timing.  For instance, if you get Bandited, you can go get a Bandit, and gaining a Gold and trashing a Silver is a respectable outcome from your nonterminal 5$ workshop.
[/quote]

Remember, though, that drawing the Rabble/Pool/Spy doesn't net to anything other than the very weak attack.  I think the number of top-of-deck attacks is significant enough that, as you say, the being-forced-to-buy-Copper thing suddenly makes the card weak.
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 02:26:11 am »
0

I edited my post in some ways, I didn't expect you to respond so quickly.

I'm thinking about tweaks.  I think you've made fair points.  When I initially designed the card I fell into the trap of only thinking about cards that do nothing but make your next draws more likely to be bad, not considering cards that mess with your deck for totally different reasons like Jester, Brigand, Knight, etc.  The count gets higher when you add those in.

-oh, ahh, and you're right, you don't even get the +3 cards.  You lose your discard pile before the three treasures likely drew come into play for you to truly copy.

I've gotten inspiration for a redesign, all of nobody who cares, stay tuned.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 03:04:03 am by popsofctown »
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popsofctown

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Re: Covetous Dream - a kinder "Possession"
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 07:54:20 pm »
0

Ok, I realized the inspired spinoff doesn't work.

BUT I came up with a better wording.  It has fewer words than Possession!  This one loses the "Envoy is awesome" component, but also loses the "Rabble is devastating" component. 
In the process of removing the buy-a-card requirement, I moved the bonus turn to just after you've constructed your replica hand, instead of just before your next turn.  This probably works out nicer in multiplayer, it will be less cognitively expensive to watch someone play a turn remarkably similar to the previous one right after it happened.
I'm trying to remember why I had it any other way before - I think my logic was that I wanted every player in a multiplayer game to have equal opportunity to Militia or Urchin the replica hand.  That doesn't seem important enough.  This card is going to hose attacks in various incidental ways, but hopefully not more harshly than Jack overall.
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