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Author Topic: How good is Fishing Village really?  (Read 4130 times)

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Jeebus

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How good is Fishing Village really?
« on: December 07, 2017, 11:38:19 am »
+5

I've often heard how FV is one of the best villages, if not the best. And sure, it nets you an Action twice, while other villages only do it once. And it's great for consistency to start your turn with 2 Actions. So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village. And it doesn't draw, so you need more draw to keep drawing your deck than you would with Villages. It gives you +$1, so in essence (compared to Village) you're sacrificing a card for a draw, which is like a Copper. So it's like having a Village and a Copper in your deck, right? You would rather trash that Copper. The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

My conclusion is that FV is a great village while building, but if you're building towards drawing your deck, after a couple of FVs you pretty much always want other villages instead. I mean, if they're available. (Yes I just played a game IRL with both FV and Village.)

Have I made any mistakes in my reasoning here?

jonts26

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 11:42:22 am »
+7

Fishing village let's you play an additional terminal this turn and next turn, so the fact that it's a duration doesn't make it worse for terminal space than regular village, even when drawing your deck. It also provides $2 in the space of one card, so the copper comparison isn't great. Not drawing is the main downside, but starting your turn with an extra action often makes up for that and more, since it makes stalling a lot less likely.

And the fact that it doesn't draw only matters every other turn  Or to be more clear, if you are drawing your deck, fishing village is sort of like a bazaar that only draws every other play, that also gives a bit more start turn consistency.

If there are other villages around, you do probably want to get some of those as well, but on single village boards, fishing village is one of the best you can hope for.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:59:05 am by jonts26 »
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Awaclus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 11:53:56 am »
+2

I've often heard how FV is one of the best villages, if not the best. And sure, it nets you an Action twice, while other villages only do it once. And it's great for consistency to start your turn with 2 Actions. So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village. And it doesn't draw, so you need more draw to keep drawing your deck than you would with Villages. It gives you +$1, so in essence (compared to Village) you're sacrificing a card for a draw, which is like a Copper. So it's like having a Village and a Copper in your deck, right? You would rather trash that Copper. The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

My conclusion is that FV is a great village while building, but if you're building towards drawing your deck, after a couple of FVs you pretty much always want other villages instead. I mean, if they're available. (Yes I just played a game IRL with both FV and Village.)

Have I made any mistakes in my reasoning here?

Yes, that is true. You don't want to overbuy Fishing Villages because it's a stop card, but you do almost always want at least two for the consistency and because it helps you skip Silver in the early game.
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Chris is me

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 12:30:49 pm »
0

Fishing Village does sometimes get worse than regular Villages because it doesn’t draw (even though it’s only a stop card every other turn), but because of the duration effect you’ll always want at least 1-2 in play to start your turn.

It’s still a top tier Village just because of that, and because “not drawing” is a bit of a misnomer since unlike Villa it doesn’t negatively impact your handsize *every* turn. But on a board with a drawing Village you start off with a couple FVs and then switch to the drawing kind usually.

In any case, the best Village is Wandering Minstrel.
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Awaclus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 12:34:47 pm »
0

In any case, the best Village is Wandering Minstrel.

It's not as good as Port and Border Village.
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Jeebus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 12:39:43 pm »
0

Fishing village let's you play an additional terminal this turn and next turn, so the fact that it's a duration doesn't make it worse for terminal space than regular village, even when drawing your deck. It also provides $2 in the space of one card, so the copper comparison isn't great. Not drawing is the main downside, but starting your turn with an extra action often makes up for that and more, since it makes stalling a lot less likely.

And the fact that it doesn't draw only matters every other turn  Or to be more clear, if you are drawing your deck, fishing village is sort of like a bazaar that only draws every other play, that also gives a bit more start turn consistency.

Right, I realize my mistake. When you play it, it's like a Village and a Copper, but next turn it's like a Bazaar. It's not exactly correct to say that it makes $2 in one card either though, since you can only play it every other turn. Bazaar makes $1, but you would play it every turn, and it would make exactly the same $ as FV.

I guess we could say that two FVs is like having a Bazaar, a Village and a Copper (plus the added consistency).

DG

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 12:43:02 pm »
0

I wouldn't say that a fishing village is better than a basic village for initial building. Chapel/village can be a better opening than chapel/fishing village, for example.
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Dingan

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 12:55:00 pm »
0

FV is great when you need actions and consistency. It's bad when you don't need actions and want cycling -- in which case it's not much better than a delayed Silver, or a Lighthouse when your opponent doesn't have any attacks.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:57:26 pm by Dingan »
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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 12:58:09 pm »
+2

I wouldn't say that a fishing village is better than a basic village for initial building. Chapel/village can be a better opening than chapel/fishing village, for example.

I don't think I would ever open Chapel/Village. I can imagine cases where I would open Chapel/FV.
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avorian

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 01:36:29 pm »
0

I think the big thing missing from this analysis is how much fishing village helps with rhythm. If you build an engine with a drawing village and terminal draw and no duration draw, then to kick off a big turn you need to draw a village in you starting hand, and a draw card in the starting hand + usually 1 card from the village. If you build the same thing with fishing village then you can kick off even if have to play as many draw cards as you had fishing villages from the last turn before finding a village.
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ConMan

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 05:21:32 pm »
0

It also really helps to know that you *will* start your turn with that extra action, so you won't have to worry about having a hand with your terminal draw and no way of actually turning that into a good engine turn. It's similar to why sometimes you want to Prince your Necropolis.
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Chappy7

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 05:48:00 pm »
0

It also really helps to know that you *will* start your turn with that extra action, so you won't have to worry about having a hand with your terminal draw and no way of actually turning that into a good engine turn. It's similar to why sometimes you want to Prince your Necropolis.

This is especially good with armory, develop, royal seal, artisan, and other top decking stuff.  It is nice to be able to play a FV then topdeck a smithy or some draw card, knowing that you can safely play it next turn
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mameluke

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 07:02:47 pm »
+1

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.
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Jeebus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 07:58:09 pm »
+1

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.

I seem to agree!:
So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

trivialknot

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 08:17:19 pm »
0

I think Conclave shows that +2 Actions, +$2 is pretty good when it's cheap, because you need that economy early on, and then later you already have the villages you need.

Fishing Village gives +3 Actions and +$2 for even cheaper, with the disadvantage that it's spread out over two turns.  But wait, being spread out over two turns makes it even better.  Not only does it reduce the probability of dudding at turn start, it means that when you draw your deck, Fishing Village only averages -1/2 card per turn.

Basically, Fishing Village > Conclave.  So it wouldn't make sense to rate Conclave S while rating Fishing Village only A.  Not that I know of anyone ever doing such a thing.
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crj

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 08:29:14 pm »
0

I don't think I would ever open Chapel/Village. I can imagine cases where I would open Chapel/FV.
I love the Chapel+FV opening when it crops up.

I've not actually sat down and worked it out, but my gut feel is that Chapel+FV hits $3 during second shuffle much more dependably than Chapel+Silver. With a Chapel+Silver opening, drawing the Chapel and Silver together is a major pain.
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crj

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 08:31:58 pm »
0

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village.
It's already been pointed out that things aren't that simple.

However, even if they were, and not being able to play a specific Fishing Village every turn was a problem for you, playing Fishing Village nets you 2/3 the price of an extra Fishing Village, so you could afford to buy more of them.
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gloures

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 08:52:00 pm »
0

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...
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Jeebus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 08:52:52 pm »
0

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village.
It's already been pointed out that things aren't that simple.

Really? I thought it was that simple. Only when it comes to the number of net Actions you get of course, not regarding draw or coins.

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 08:54:17 pm »
0

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...

I seem to agree with that too!:
The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

Chris is me

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 10:37:41 pm »
0

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...

I seem to agree with that too!:
The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

...are you only looking for observations with no parts that you agree with?
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Jeebus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 11:17:26 pm »
0

...are you only looking for observations with no parts that you agree with?

I was not really interested in whether FV is great when you're not drawing your deck, or whether it's good to prevent stalling, because I think it's an undisputed "yes" to both. I stated both things in the OP anyway, so that people understand that I know them. I was more interested in how FV measures up once you're drawing your deck, considering that it doesn't draw, that it doesn't give more +actions than Village anymore at that point, the +coins, and also the thing about consistency.

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 12:54:08 am »
+2

Uh..  If you're drawing your whole deck, then like by definition Fishing Village is better, because it's +2 actions +1 coin, and Village is +2 actions +1 oops I drew my whole deck.

So I'm really not understanding this line of discourse.
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Awaclus

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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 03:10:48 am »
0

Uh..  If you're drawing your whole deck, then like by definition Fishing Village is better, because it's +2 actions +1 coin, and Village is +2 actions +1 oops I drew my whole deck.

So I'm really not understanding this line of discourse.

No, Village is better because it doesn't take up a stop card slot that could be another Bridge instead.
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Re: How good is Fishing Village really?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 09:53:58 am »
0

Right, you want to be able to continue drawing when you add stop cards like payload or Victory cards.

Here's an even better comparison: Having 2 Fishing Villages, playing one every turn, is like having 2 Villages, a Copper and a Peddler - plus the added consistency.
Which is better depends a lot on exactly how important that added consistency is in your particular deck, I assume. Like, how many stop cards are you supporting, and how many sifters do you have.
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