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[Jeebus]

I've often heard how FV is one of the best villages, if not the best. And sure, it nets you an Action twice, while other villages only do it once. And it's great for consistency to start your turn with 2 Actions. So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village. And it doesn't draw, so you need more draw to keep drawing your deck than you would with Villages. It gives you +$1, so in essence (compared to Village) you're sacrificing a card for a draw, which is like a Copper. So it's like having a Village and a Copper in your deck, right? You would rather trash that Copper. The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

My conclusion is that FV is a great village while building, but if you're building towards drawing your deck, after a couple of FVs you pretty much always want other villages instead. I mean, if they're available. (Yes I just played a game IRL with both FV and Village.)

Have I made any mistakes in my reasoning here?

[jonts26]

Fishing village let's you play an additional terminal this turn and next turn, so the fact that it's a duration doesn't make it worse for terminal space than regular village, even when drawing your deck. It also provides $2 in the space of one card, so the copper comparison isn't great. Not drawing is the main downside, but starting your turn with an extra action often makes up for that and more, since it makes stalling a lot less likely.

And the fact that it doesn't draw only matters every other turn  Or to be more clear, if you are drawing your deck, fishing village is sort of like a bazaar that only draws every other play, that also gives a bit more start turn consistency.

If there are other villages around, you do probably want to get some of those as well, but on single village boards, fishing village is one of the best you can hope for.

[Awaclus]

I've often heard how FV is one of the best villages, if not the best. And sure, it nets you an Action twice, while other villages only do it once. And it's great for consistency to start your turn with 2 Actions. So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village. And it doesn't draw, so you need more draw to keep drawing your deck than you would with Villages. It gives you +$1, so in essence (compared to Village) you're sacrificing a card for a draw, which is like a Copper. So it's like having a Village and a Copper in your deck, right? You would rather trash that Copper. The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

My conclusion is that FV is a great village while building, but if you're building towards drawing your deck, after a couple of FVs you pretty much always want other villages instead. I mean, if they're available. (Yes I just played a game IRL with both FV and Village.)

Have I made any mistakes in my reasoning here?

Yes, that is true. You don't want to overbuy Fishing Villages because it's a stop card, but you do almost always want at least two for the consistency and because it helps you skip Silver in the early game.

[Chris is me]

Fishing Village does sometimes get worse than regular Villages because it doesn’t draw (even though it’s only a stop card every other turn), but because of the duration effect you’ll always want at least 1-2 in play to start your turn.

It’s still a top tier Village just because of that, and because “not drawing” is a bit of a misnomer since unlike Villa it doesn’t negatively impact your handsize *every* turn. But on a board with a drawing Village you start off with a couple FVs and then switch to the drawing kind usually.

In any case, the best Village is Wandering Minstrel.

[Awaclus]

In any case, the best Village is Wandering Minstrel.

It's not as good as Port and Border Village.

[Jeebus]

Fishing village let's you play an additional terminal this turn and next turn, so the fact that it's a duration doesn't make it worse for terminal space than regular village, even when drawing your deck. It also provides $2 in the space of one card, so the copper comparison isn't great. Not drawing is the main downside, but starting your turn with an extra action often makes up for that and more, since it makes stalling a lot less likely.

And the fact that it doesn't draw only matters every other turn  Or to be more clear, if you are drawing your deck, fishing village is sort of like a bazaar that only draws every other play, that also gives a bit more start turn consistency.

Right, I realize my mistake. When you play it, it's like a Village and a Copper, but next turn it's like a Bazaar. It's not exactly correct to say that it makes $2 in one card either though, since you can only play it every other turn. Bazaar makes $1, but you would play it every turn, and it would make exactly the same $ as FV.

I guess we could say that two FVs is like having a Bazaar, a Village and a Copper (plus the added consistency).

[DG]

I wouldn't say that a fishing village is better than a basic village for initial building. Chapel/village can be a better opening than chapel/fishing village, for example.

[Dingan]

FV is great when you need actions and consistency. It's bad when you don't need actions and want cycling -- in which case it's not much better than a delayed Silver, or a Lighthouse when your opponent doesn't have any attacks.

[Awaclus]

I wouldn't say that a fishing village is better than a basic village for initial building. Chapel/village can be a better opening than chapel/fishing village, for example.

I don't think I would ever open Chapel/Village. I can imagine cases where I would open Chapel/FV.

[avorian]

I think the big thing missing from this analysis is how much fishing village helps with rhythm. If you build an engine with a drawing village and terminal draw and no duration draw, then to kick off a big turn you need to draw a village in you starting hand, and a draw card in the starting hand + usually 1 card from the village. If you build the same thing with fishing village then you can kick off even if have to play as many draw cards as you had fishing villages from the last turn before finding a village.

[ConMan]

It also really helps to know that you *will* start your turn with that extra action, so you won't have to worry about having a hand with your terminal draw and no way of actually turning that into a good engine turn. It's similar to why sometimes you want to Prince your Necropolis.

[Chappy7]

It also really helps to know that you *will* start your turn with that extra action, so you won't have to worry about having a hand with your terminal draw and no way of actually turning that into a good engine turn. It's similar to why sometimes you want to Prince your Necropolis.

This is especially good with armory, develop, royal seal, artisan, and other top decking stuff.  It is nice to be able to play a FV then topdeck a smithy or some draw card, knowing that you can safely play it next turn

[mameluke]

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.

[Jeebus]

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.

I seem to agree!:

So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

[trivialknot]

I think Conclave shows that +2 Actions, +$2 is pretty good when it's cheap, because you need that economy early on, and then later you already have the villages you need.

Fishing Village gives +3 Actions and +$2 for even cheaper, with the disadvantage that it's spread out over two turns.  But wait, being spread out over two turns makes it even better.  Not only does it reduce the probability of dudding at turn start, it means that when you draw your deck, Fishing Village only averages -1/2 card per turn.

Basically, Fishing Village > Conclave.  So it wouldn't make sense to rate Conclave S while rating Fishing Village only A.  Not that I know of anyone ever doing such a thing.

[crj]

I don't think I would ever open Chapel/Village. I can imagine cases where I would open Chapel/FV.

I love the Chapel+FV opening when it crops up.

I've not actually sat down and worked it out, but my gut feel is that Chapel+FV hits $3 during second shuffle much more dependably than Chapel+Silver. With a Chapel+Silver opening, drawing the Chapel and Silver together is a major pain.

[crj]

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village.

It's already been pointed out that things aren't that simple.

However, even if they were, and not being able to play a specific Fishing Village every turn was a problem for you, playing Fishing Village nets you 2/3 the price of an extra Fishing Village, so you could afford to buy more of them.

[gloures]

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...

[Jeebus]

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village.

It's already been pointed out that things aren't that simple.

Really? I thought it was that simple. Only when it comes to the number of net Actions you get of course, not regarding draw or coins.

[Jeebus]

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...

I seem to agree with that too!:

The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

[Chris is me]

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...

I seem to agree with that too!:

The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

...are you only looking for observations with no parts that you agree with?

[Jeebus]

...are you only looking for observations with no parts that you agree with?

I was not really interested in whether FV is great when you're not drawing your deck, or whether it's good to prevent stalling, because I think it's an undisputed "yes" to both. I stated both things in the OP anyway, so that people understand that I know them. I was more interested in how FV measures up once you're drawing your deck, considering that it doesn't draw, that it doesn't give more +actions than Village anymore at that point, the +coins, and also the thing about consistency.

[popsofctown]

Uh..  If you're drawing your whole deck, then like by definition Fishing Village is better, because it's +2 actions +1 coin, and Village is +2 actions +1 oops I drew my whole deck.

So I'm really not understanding this line of discourse.

[Awaclus]

Uh..  If you're drawing your whole deck, then like by definition Fishing Village is better, because it's +2 actions +1 coin, and Village is +2 actions +1 oops I drew my whole deck.

So I'm really not understanding this line of discourse.

No, Village is better because it doesn't take up a stop card slot that could be another Bridge instead.

[Jeebus]

Right, you want to be able to continue drawing when you add stop cards like payload or Victory cards.

Here's an even better comparison: Having 2 Fishing Villages, playing one every turn, is like having 2 Villages, a Copper and a Peddler - plus the added consistency.
Which is better depends a lot on exactly how important that added consistency is in your particular deck, I assume. Like, how many stop cards are you supporting, and how many sifters do you have.

[McGarnacle]

I think Fishing Village is one of those cards that has gotten worse, but is still really strong. In the days before Villa, Port, Border Village and Wandering Minstrel, it used to be a lot harder to get a good engine with lots of actions. And Fishing Village was great at that. Its still a good card, just not as good.

[pacovf]

I am confused as to why you want to consider whether Fishing Village is as good as commonly thought if we ignore its greatest strength (reliability). To me, that’s kinda like asking how good Bridge is if you don’t reduce all prices to 0 with it.

[mameluke]

It's a great village. You don't draw your whole deck every game.

I seem to agree!:

So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

I think my point here is that judging "how good is Fishing Village really?" based on scenarios that are somewhat rare (draw your deck engines while your deck is already entirely drawn) is disingenuous. Sure, does FV outlive its usefulness at some point? Yes, but so does every card except for payload. I can think of more times when I had two +3 Cards cards in my hand and a FV already in play than times when I was sad that I had too many Fishing Villages.

[JThorne]

A thought about villages: They're a means to an end, and none of us would buy them at all if we didn't have to. I can't think of a single draw card that I wouldn't simply rather put the +action token on instead of fiddling with villages.

The fact that FV does the main thing Villages do (grant extra actions) essentially twice as well as a normal village is a big advantage during the building phase, which is the most critical phase of engine play; when you don't yet have control. It allows you to overload more terminal draw, which gets you to the deck-drawing phase more quickly. And the duration effect mitigates half the draw-back, as it were. In addition, I always give cards that grant extra economy a value bump, because if it allows you to get away without buying early Silver, then the non-drawing is entirely mitigated because you've thinned your deck by another stop card. I'm a big fan.

[gloures]

It's also a lot easier to consistently draw your deck if you start every turn with one (or more) extra actions...

I seem to agree with that too!:

The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

If it's great when you draw your deck and great when you don't draw your deck, why is it that Fishing Village isn't all that good?


I mean, sure I think there are better Villages, I'd say Wandering Minstrel and Port at least, there are lot's of decks where I would rather have a drawing village, but I personally think that in most cases the reliability factor given by Fishing Village trumps the fact that it does not draw a card, even when you're drawing your deck.

[popsofctown]

Uh..  If you're drawing your whole deck, then like by definition Fishing Village is better, because it's +2 actions +1 coin, and Village is +2 actions +1 oops I drew my whole deck.

So I'm really not understanding this line of discourse.

No, Village is better because it doesn't take up a stop card slot that could be another Bridge instead.

The way the question was posed, regardless of how many stop cards are in my deck, I am drawing my entire deck.  You are changing the premise.

When the question is posed correctly, then yes it is trivially easy.  "Should I buy a Village or a Fishing Village if the Village will draw my entire deck but the Fishing Village won't?" It seems rather clear that you should, the bottom card might be your best one.  If it's something like failing to play the Militia you'd like to play each turn, the chance of missing out on it doesn't have to be very high for you to be willing to pass up nonterminal abandoned mine.

[enfynet]

Doesn't FV effectively contribute +Actions equivalent to having 2 villages? Since after playing you have +2 Actions now and 2 Actions to start your next turn?

[Seprix]

Fishing Village is consistency, which makes it strong. You also don't want a whole ton of them unless it's the only village, since they are stop cards. Fishing Village isn't Villa/King's Court/Port/Border Village strong, but it is up there in strength. It is for sure overrated.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Doesn't FV effectively contribute +Actions equivalent to having 2 villages? Since after playing you have +2 Actions now and 2 Actions to start your next turn?

It does until you start being able to draw your whole deck every turn. Then, a normal Village provides an extra action each turn, and so does Fishing Village.

[enfynet]

At which point, the FV also provides coin, while most villages do not.

[Jeebus]

I am confused as to why you want to consider whether Fishing Village is as good as commonly thought if we ignore its greatest strength (reliability). To me, that’s kinda like asking how good Bridge is if you don’t reduce all prices to 0 with it.

But I didn't say that we should ignore it, quite the opposite. It was a question about how good it is considering everything, I don't know how I could have been clearer. I was pretty sure the answer was that it's still great to have at least 2 FVs after drawing you're deck, but you could ask, how many more FVs should you get while building if there are other villages? I think in the past, the answer would be FVs all the way, but I was thinking that it might be more nuanced now. In the game I referenced, I started bying Villages after I had 3 FVs, and I was wondering what people thought about this (FV vs. Village).

At which point, the FV also provides coin, while most villages do not.

I'm pretty sure this is accurate (when drawing your deck): Having 2 Fishing Villages, playing one every turn, is like having 2 Villages, a Copper and a Peddler - plus the added consistency.